Problems at Gentoo Discussion

[vonr]

Problem: Developers are retiring faster than they respawn
Why the problem exists: No definitive answer at this point.
Proposed solution: Greater care taken of potential devs (currently users). More suggestions appreciated.

Explanation: During the last three weeks only two new devs have joined. During the same time 19 devs have retired (according to this bugzilla search for the time period, I counted only the FIXED bugs). That's an outflow of 17 devs, and if it continues at this rate, it's pretty alarming.

Ehm, have a look at the bugs you posted: most of them are being retired due to inactivity. Every once in a while a bunch of inactive devs is being retired, nothing unusual about that. I still remember the 'mass-exodus' of devs a while back; this is nothing of the sort.

[Slalomsk8er]

Thank you for your posts here. Like I hoped there are some overlaps like the one about the devs leaving faster then joining and the one about to few new devs joining, which will help me in compiling a better node in the Wiki about the devs.

@jonnevers:
and where is your fix I have not the time to volunteer as a trustee nor do I have the knowledge that I suppose is needed about the USA legal system. If I had both or both items are not that big as I believe they are then I would not write al this here but would nominate my self for the next voting of trustees.

I hope it is not just boosting my ego if I try to document the bigger problems Gentoo is facing but will help in fixing them easier for the ones that can do it.

Keep em coming there must be more because I don't think we are lucky enough that this are our only problems

[ps]

Problem: Users like those posting in this thread and editing that wiki
Why the problem exists: distorted self-entitlement, maybe? an inflated sense of self-worth.
Proposed solution: have them shut their traps and dig in and actually fix issues instead of..... the same old same old.

Should we have them flogged as well?

[Carlo]

Problem: User frustration at the recent developments in Gentoo management
Why the problem exists: There's no alternative to the current Gentoo
Proposed solution: Fork it ASAP

Devilish junk account, who art thou? It's hard to pick popcorn with a fork, but it's still fun to watch. Remember, remember - Zynot's dead ember.

Explanation: During the last three weeks only two new devs have joined. During the same time 19 devs have retired (according to this bugzilla search for the time period, I counted only the FIXED bugs). That's an outflow of 17 devs, and if it continues at this rate, it's pretty alarming.

This may be a bit misleading, given that devrel is quite a bit behind retiring devlopers, for as long as I can remember. Also it can actually be quite hard to gauge what the individuals did as there's so much you can do behind the scenes, which doesn't show up in cvs commits. So this surely does neither give a picture of the rate developers join and leave, nor the actual impact on Gentoo development.

[01mf02]

Most of you will agree that the problem with Gentoo is the perceived lack of progress! Many people posted about
- the GWN that is not a WN anymore at all,
- the never-changing layout on the Gentoo.org frontpage,
- the non-existance of a release greater that 2007.0 etc.

Things have somehow stopped to move! Of course, e.g. the Portage tree is very active, but the aforementioned areas definitely require some love.

So would a "dictator" like Drobbins change things better than they could be changed without him?

We had a working Gentoo infrastructure for some years without Drobbins now, and just recently serious problems seemed to appear (maybe it's a bit hyped now, but problems definitely exist). Don't you believe the conditions demanded by Drobbins can be a serious threat to the current system?

The discussion that's going on currently is a good sign because there is a will to change in the community. Problem: Nothing seems to change despite this, which is why people are calling for a dictator!

What do you think about some kind of "getting the job done" taskforce with about 5 people that could enforce quick measures? These people should be easily contactable, probably elected, and be very present in the community, something the User Representatives unfortunately never have achieved AFAIK.

[ps]

This is amazing!
My gentoo box is barely 2 weeks old.
In fact I haven't even finished installing and configuring it yet, and already I'm starting to feel like an unwelcome intruder.
I lost count how many times I've been told to shut up in just the past 2 days!
Amazing.

respectfully,

[Nerdanel]

There appears to be only one trustee left. Daniel Robbins wrote that only Grant Goodyear and Chris Gianelloni were left, and Chris Gianelloni has resigned since (quoted on the wiki). The most recent activity by Grant Goodyear that I was able to find with Google was a contradance event last November and before that a blog post from last September that had nothing to do with Gentoo or computers.

Problem:

Gentoo Store sells woefully out-of-date versions of Gentoo - 2006.1 and 2006.0!

Why this problem exists:

Nobody has updated the store since 2006. The reasons are unclear but a general lack of leadership seems to be behind it.

Proposed solution:

- Update the store to sell 2007.0. Include updating the store in the to-do list whenever a new version comes out. Make sure that the to-do list is enforced.

- Remove CDs from the Gentoo Store.

- Remove the entire Gentoo Store.

[bmichaelsen]

This is amazing!
My gentoo box is barely 2 weeks old.
In fact I haven't even finished installing and configuring it yet, and already I'm starting to feel like an unwelcome intruder.
I lost count how many times I've been told to shut up in just the past 2 days!
Amazing.

respectfully,

Well, the language is getting a bit rougher currently, but that storm will pass. Please dont take it personally, you seem to have joined gentoo when it was sitting in the eye of the hurricane. Things will get more pleasant again, when the current issues are worked out. And those will get worked out - one way or another.

[Old School]

To those that think this will just blow over, and those that think it is just a recent problem, my take is this is something that has been slowly growing for the past year and half to two years. Unless measures are taken, it will achieve a critical mass. Gentoo needs a unified approach, something that, imo, has been sorely lacking.

[Nerdanel]

Note once again that the Gentoo Store hasn't been updated since 2006 The problems are not recent at all, in the past things merely hadn't had the time to deteriorate as badly as they are now.

By the way, take a look at the (ex-)trustee Paul de Vrieze's blog. The most recent comment (from March 2007) has this quote about Gentoo:

I do know that it means that at some point uncivilized behavior should be stopped. Since the council seems incapable of actually taking fast, decisive action, perhaps we need a lead. (And no, I will not be running)

Note once again that the quote was from March 2007, nearly a year ago.

[NeddySeagoon]

01mf02,

Things can certainly change without drobbins. I will go so far as to speculate that drobbins infamous blog post was prompted because someone was asking questions and trying to change things and the blog was the result.

The problem with a dictator is to whom will he dictate?
Manging a large volunteer group takes tact and diplomacy, since the volunteers do when they do for fun.
As soon as the dictator removes the fun element, even accidently, the volunteers will just melt away.



ps,

Welcome to Gentoo.
When you engage in passonate speculative disscussions based on very few facts, predudicies soon emerge.
When that happens, the temperature rises and some individuals resort to personal attacks rather than reasoned discussion.
Life is like that the world over, not just within Gentoo. After all, Gentoo is a microcosm of the world outside.
Accept it and shrug it off or avoid these debates.
The mods and admins do try to curb the worst excesses. Feel free to point out instances we miss with a post here

[Slalomsk8er]

This is amazing!
My gentoo box is barely 2 weeks old.
In fact I haven't even finished installing and configuring it yet, and already I'm starting to feel like an unwelcome intruder.
I lost count how many times I've been told to shut up in just the past 2 days!
Amazing.

respectfully,

What should I say? Welcome to Gentoo, maybe
We are not your "we love us all" Ubuntu community, we are a bit geekier and i fear we are a bit nerdier too.
What do you expect from a nerd that is 30 years old, lives at mom's and has the ego of Batman

I hope you can stand above this "problem" like the rest of us still more or less sane Gentoo users.

Does some one has more info about trustees and there current status, preferably with source. Thanks

And developers can address things too. I am sure there are important things that need testing or code monkeys.

[ps]

NeddySeagoon

Thanks, I appreciate your welcome and advice.

I don't take things personally - at least try not.
I think that all this back and forth stuff is good and healthy - even if it gets a little edgy at times.
I am having lots of fun here.
I think you all are great.

Best wishes.

[ps]

Ok, thanks everybody, I'm feeling welcome again.

[Slalomsk8er]

01mf02,
Things can certainly change without drobbins. I will go so far as to speculate that drobbins infamous blog post was prompted because someone was asking questions and trying to change things and the blog was the result.

NeddySeagoon, can you help with the "Possible fixes for the problem:" in the "Gentoo Foundation's Charter Revoked" item
as there is still my "FIXME: We need some good alternatives". And a good summary why drobbins solution is a bit problematic would be nice as this is a very hot iron and I am not an native English speaker.

PS: not only from NeddySeagoon but from every one that has a good idea I really would like to read some.

[Nerdanel]

It appears that the paperwork was for 501(c)(6) status. (Unfortunately the board cannot handle a link with () in it...)

"Gentoo is not a 501(c)(3) organization but is applying for 501(c)(6) status instead"
- http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/userrel/adopt-a-dev/

"...resolve the legal issues, namely our 501(c)(6) application and copyright assignment stuff; ..."
- http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/all/2006/10/06/

Mod Edit: It might not be able to handle parentheses, but it's fine if you give it %28 and %29 instead. --Maedhros

[Beetle B.]

Symptom: Too many ebuilds marked unstable, or no ebuilds at all.

Somehow, Gentoo got behind on providing ebuilds. I've seen cases of fairly popular packages having their latest versions marked ~x86 even though a year has passed since their releases.

Worse, a number of fairly popular packages (or their latest versions) aren't even in Portage - not even masked or keyworded. Again, this is often months (if not over a year) after they've been released.

I really wish I had concrete examples to give you, but haven't been noting them down.

When I installed Gentoo back in 2003, it was known for providing ebuilds very soon after a package's latest release. If you couldn't wait, you just put it in package.keywords (OK - that system wasn't available then - but regardless, you could install it). For me, it's scary how often over the past year I've had to go to an overlay to get a much desired package.

Problem: I don't know. I'm hoping someone here can tell me. I've thought of a number of possibilities:

1. Fewer (or the same number of) devs available to provide stable ebuilds.
2. Linux has really grown since 2003, and it's hard to keep up with all the packages out there.
3. Something else (you tell me).

Option 2 scares me if true. Most of the complaints have been on issues involving organization, the Foundation, etc. This would be a tough technical issue to handle. Will Gentoo at one point just provide ebuilds for the basic packages and leave everything else to overlays?

It would be really nice if the devs can explain the lack of ebuilds. I don't mean this to be a complaint, and nor am I considering leaving Gentoo. It may have lagged behind on providing packages, but it still excels in other things - it's a darn good system.

Solution: Hard to say without knowing the actual problem...

[NeddySeagoon]

Beetle B,

The concept and reputation of overlays has changed over recent years. They have become more respectable. (Thats not the right word but it will do)

Many herds to their development work in overlays with the result that packages get added to the tree and go to ~arch without being hard masked for development.
I see this as mixed blessing. On the positive side, it makes it easier for users to participate in testing. No more put the ebuild into your own overlay and keyword it. Just fetch the overlay with layman and use it like a part of the portage tree.
On the downside, testing packages take longer to reach the 'official' tree.

Its just a different, possibly more flexible way of working.

I'm sure you can find some examples of what you cite by looking at bugs assigned to maintainer-wanted in bugzilla be the reason is self explainatory there.

[kernelOfTruth]

Problem: even PR isn't able to get out a message on the current status anymore
Why the problem exists:dunno, perhaps too much people resigned, are too busy; whatever
Proposed solution: PR people doing some voluntary stuff (no development/programming !), that at least the broader masses get a status-report on internal affairs - communication starts to flow by baby-steps again

see: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205554

[AllenJB]

Symptom: Worse, a number of fairly popular packages (or their latest versions) aren't even in Portage - not even masked or keyworded. Again, this is often months (if not over a year) after they've been released.

Could you name some specific packages here please? Are you talking about packages which were in portage and were removed, or packages which have never been in portage?

In either case it could be either because the package is not maintained upstream (as in the case of xmms, which is probably the most popular package I still here about that was removed from portage - this package had become horribly cumbersome to maintain, with the patch tarball being equal to half the size of the xmms tarball itself when it was removed). It could also be that no one has ever asked for the package to be put into portage - consider searching bugs.gentoo.org for package / ebuild requests. If you don't find one for the package you want, consider filing one. To give it even more chance to get into portage, knock up an ebuild yourself and submit it. If you're interested in maintaining it long term, consider joining the Sunrise project.

[bmichaelsen]

Could you name some specific packages here please?

Oh please, no! Why dont we just discuss a Gartner study saying windows has fewer bugs than linux?

Lets leave "Beetle B."'s statement as a perception. There is not way to discuss it in an objective way anyhow.

[bmichaelsen]

http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/msg_01257.xml <- interesting read (whole thread)

[dilbot]

As a user with a small company using Gentoo as the backbone OS, I've been pleased by the overall Gentoo approach. I've tried most of the other major distros and Gentoo has always come out as the best choice. I am reluctant at this point to switch distros, so I can only hope that we get over this bump.

I'm not sure that bringing back Daniel Robbins is a be-all/end-all solution to what has become a complex problem. If he were to come back with a collegiate attitude to boost morale, that would be great. But coming in with an "I'll bust heads" approach won't work on a volunteer group where good devs are always running close to the burning-out point.

But who knows. Maybe get him to come back, give him three months or six months to do it his way, and see what the results are. Since he started Gentoo and has offered to jump in, it's probably appropriate that he's at least given the chance.

Daniel - if you're reading this - please remember that the devs you disagree with the most are still people who are honestly interested in moving Gentoo forward - even if it's not "forward" in the sense that you expect. The challenge of good management is to convince rather than coerce. You'll get a lot more recognition for a job well done if you keep the road kill count to a minimum.

[Slalomsk8er]

As a user with a small company using Gentoo as the backbone OS, I've been pleased by the overall Gentoo approach. I've tried most of the other major distros and Gentoo has always come out as the best choice. I am reluctant at this point to switch distros, so I can only hope that we get over this bump.

I'm not sure that bringing back Daniel Robbins is a be-all/end-all solution to what has become a complex problem. If he were to come back with a collegiate attitude to boost morale, that would be great. But coming in with an "I'll bust heads" approach won't work on a volunteer group where good devs are always running close to the burning-out point.

But who knows. Maybe get him to come back, give him three months or six months to do it his way, and see what the results are. Since he started Gentoo and has offered to jump in, it's probably appropriate that he's at least given the chance.

Daniel - if you're reading this - please remember that the devs you disagree with the most are still people who are honestly interested in moving Gentoo forward - even if it's not "forward" in the sense that you expect. The challenge of good management is to convince rather than coerce. You'll get a lot more recognition for a job well done if you keep the road kill count to a minimum.

I nearly missed your input to this discussion so please word it a bit clearer for the non English/north American born ones like me.

It looks to me like the developers trust drobbins as much as the community trusts the trustees that dropped the ball with the Foundation. Which I believe was because they were caught in between joining Software Freedom Conservancy, running the Foundation as long as it still needs to last and there outside Gentoo lives.

I would like to have him back in the lead only if he is just part of say a team of 5 mature people that are bound by clear rules that were created and voted in to function by the developers AND the community together. But who can vote and who can't? That is a problem in it self.

[ps]

I would like to have him back in the lead only if he is just part of say a team of 5 mature people that are bound by clear rules that were created and voted in to function by the developers AND the community together. But who can vote and who can't? That is a problem in it self.

It looks to me like it would be hard to get 5 people to agree that it's Sunday.
That's why the need for a benevolent dictator. which is better than the tyrannical fascism.........yuk.

Daniel - if you're reading this - please remember that the devs you disagree with the most are still people who are honestly interested in moving Gentoo forward - even if it's not "forward" in the sense that you expect. The challenge of good management is to convince rather than coerce. You'll get a lot more recognition for a job well done if you keep the road kill count to a minimum.

Nice.