Distrowatch: "Gentoo in crisis"

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kimczuba · Post by **kimczuba** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:37 am

This weeks Distrowatch Weekly is about Gentoo and the crisis that we, according to the article, are in.

It appears that people are bashing developers which in the end causes them to leave.
Of course, Daniel Robbins has a history with Gentoo, but I think that we need him as a developer and I hate to see him go.
This story is not so relevant if it wasn't for Flameeyes who left Gentoo less than a month ago after being, according to Flameeyes, insulted by another dev.

Is it a overreaction by Daniel and Flameeyes or is there something rotten at Gentoo? One can argue that is does not matter if a few devs leave as long as Gentoo keeps progressing but the bad press will probably not attract new users but rather enforce the opinion that Gentoo is not stable in the sense that developers keep coming and going and hence lacks a stable dev-core (personally however, I don't think this is true) . It would be nice to see some kind of statement about the future direction of Gentoo in an upcoming GWN. IMHO at least there has not been much positive press about Gentoo for a long time (please correct me if I am wrong).

The article in Distrowatch Weekly:
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20070312#future

Flameeyes Tired of being insulted.
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org ... g-insulted

The proposed Code of Conduct to avoid similar things in the future:
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_143434.xml

Related forum posts:
Flameeyes as dev of the year 2006: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-53 ... eeyes.html
wtf? Is everything going wrong at gentoo?: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-541247.html
Is Gentoo in trouble?: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-545783.html

Other related links:
OS News: "Gentoo Fights Flamewars and Bad Behaviour" http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=17483
Bugs @ Gentoo: "Retire (once more): Daniel Robbins (drobbins)" http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=145649
Slashdot: "Is Gentoo in crisis?" http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/03/12/1154242.shtml
OS News: "Gentoo in Crisis?" http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=17470

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:03 am

Well, as far as I can see, MIPS & co. have caused nothing but problems to Gentoo as a whole, the only time I see them is in the middle of a flamewar rather than discussing technical issues and bug fixes.

We've lost 2 good developers within a month due to the same, and still devrel does nothing.

Paapaa · Post by **Paapaa** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:27 am

I just wonder who wrote that DistroWatch article. That was a rather biased observation of the thread in question...

In my eyes it looked like Robbins just wanted to shoot Ciaranm/PMS/Paludis down as fast as he could - he also admitted this. Well, apparently he shot his own leg. The difference between Ciaranm and Robbins was that Ciaranm only starts flame wars to address techical issues - Robbins started the war to get rid of another dev.

Anyway: I agree that the constant flame wars are not a good thing. But I also think that there are a many too soft-skinned devs who can't stand any justified criticism. In order to improve Gentoo we need people capable of pointing out errors/bad decisions. But equally we need devs who can communicate with other devs. It is always a bit of a compromise.

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:38 am

Paapaa wrote:I just wonder who wrote that DistroWatch article. That was completely biased observation of the thread in question...

In my eyes it looked like Robbins just wanted to shoot Ciaranm/PMS/Paludis down as fast as he could. Well, apparently he shot his own leg.

Biased towards whom?.. Gentoo?.. I sure hope so, because if this trend keeps up we'll only have a MIPS team with devrel still picking their noses.

Whether Daniel wanted to be totally rid of Ciaranm or not (which is totally justified) doesn't matter, the fact remains that yet another developer was left to put up with personal attacks and flames from MIPS & co. with devrel doing nothing to intervene, as a result we lost yet another great developer who actually gets stuff done.

huhn_m · Post by **huhn_m** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:02 pm

I strongly agree with this article by distrowatch. I just wanted to post it here myself.

I have been a long time user of gentoo (even though I rarely post here) but I think that some things are
really going wrong here. I even looked out for other distros (what I haven't done in years), and the only
reason I have not left yet ist because no distro offers me the high customizability of genoo and its bleeding edge nature.

SuSE was a good option but it turned out to be too instable and too unconfigurable.
If anyone ever creates a distro that joins all the good sides of Gentoo and SuSE I will be
the first to use this distribution.

gentoo-dev · Post by **gentoo-dev** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:22 pm

A well written article, unfortunately.
Technically speaking, Gentoo is still a fine distribution if you're willing to learn how to make the best of it and accept the odd breakage.
Socially speaking, it's a shame.

Paapaa wrote:I just wonder who wrote that DistroWatch article.

The author signed his article and only wrote how he sees Gentoo nowadays.
Address the issue instead of shooting the messenger.

Genone · Post by **Genone** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:27 pm

That article must be a joke, I wonder who wrote that crap. It's full of incorrect facts and wrong conclusions, calling it "biased" is very moderate.

Hypnos · Post by **Hypnos** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:29 pm

The problem with software engineering (or design in general) is that you don't have a complete specification, nor all the data to form one. This attracts people with big egos who think they have all the answers; because one or more don't for a given task, flamewars are inevitable.

Moreover, in community-driven projects, there's no real accountability to livelihood, so there's not much more to motivate developers than their egos. Whether this is a feature or a bug depends on how you view the "fragmentation" and "innovation" of the Linux software world.

Finally, with Gentoo, this is redoubled since being "meta" is the name of the game. I can't say I'm surprised that these problems have cropped up since Daniel left the project the first time and the Gentoo corporate body went not-for-profit. So far, my only real beef is that ebuild QA is spotty -- stuff is in ~arch longer than it should, there are mistakes in the ebuilds because devs don't have time to use the software themselves, etc. -- but one can foresee that developer bickering can stall a project.

So what's the solution? One might think to get rid of the flat management structure, but then you risk forks. In my humble experience, an easy solution doesn't exist: you need both charismatic leadership to keep things coherent, but also those people who have the unique ability to lower blood pressure just by being around and offering workable compromises.

Maybe it's just a matter of devs who care about Gentoo as a whole, and not simply their own pet projects/agendas, to step up and fill both roles. Some devs will get left out in the cold, but it's better than Gentoo stalling, if it comes to that.

brullonulla · Post by **brullonulla** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:33 pm

I read the mailing list thread, and it's hard to understand who is "right". It seems ciaranm was just asking for respect for his work (screaming quite loudly and not diplomatically, it seems), and drobbins replied "oh well, let's remove ciaranm from developers".

Not nice behaviour on both sides.

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:39 pm

brullonulla wrote:I read the mailing list thread, and it's hard to understand who is "right". It seems ciaranm was just asking for respect for his work (screaming quite loudly and not diplomatically, it seems), and drobbins replied "oh well, let's remove ciaranm from developers".

Not nice behaviour on both sides.

Respect is earned, not demanded.

Paapaa · Post by **Paapaa** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:41 pm

brullonulla wrote:I read the mailing list thread, and it's hard to understand who is "right". It seems ciaranm was just asking for respect for his work (screaming quite loudly and not diplomatically, it seems), and drobbins replied "oh well, let's remove ciaranm from developers".

Ciaranm asked (this is the whole answer, not just small quote):

Can the Council provide a list of other projects that have had deadlines imposed upon them by Gentoo?

I don't consider that trolling or flaming and the tone is quite polite. Of course, no such list was provided.

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:45 pm

Paapaa wrote:
Can the Council provide a list of other projects that have had deadlines imposed upon them by Gentoo?
I don't consider that trolling or flaming and the tone is quite polite. Of course, no such list was provided.

In reference to what?

moesasji · Post by **moesasji** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:46 pm

It might be a good idea to read drobbins paper on making the distro, where he explains why he left the Linux Stampede project. Seeing the similarities it made me understand better what happened on the dev-list.

@Genone: For me as a Gentoo user the article in Distrowatch is spot on. If I look at the different mailing-lists gets exactly the impression as is presented by Distrowatch. So I would not call this biased, but a good stimulus to think about the public image of Gentoo.

Naib · Post by **Naib** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:52 pm

I just love it how Ciaran McCreesh got named in that
How many issues within Gentoo's dev structure can be traced back to his complete lack of interpersonal savvy? (knock-on effects included)

The Unknown · Post by **The Unknown** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:53 pm

To me it doesn`t sound like it was written from an outsider,more from someone who has left and is mad.

Genone · Post by **Genone** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:01 pm

moesasji wrote:@Genone: For me as a Gentoo user the article in Distrowatch is spot on. If I look at the different mailing-lists gets exactly the impression as is presented by Distrowatch. So I would not call this biased, but a good stimulus to think about the public image of Gentoo.

While the message might be somewhat right (which is debatable, personally I'd disagree), the details and presented facts mentioned in that article are completely off-track, see nightmorphs comment there for a few things that are wrong with that article.

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:02 pm

The Unknown wrote:To me it doesn`t sound like it was written from an outsider,more from someone who has left and is mad.

It doesn't take much digging around for an outsider to see Ciaran's name (and his lackys) pop up everywhere in the middle of a flamewar.

Naibs comment was right on the money.

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:04 pm

Genone wrote:
moesasji wrote:@Genone: For me as a Gentoo user the article in Distrowatch is spot on. If I look at the different mailing-lists gets exactly the impression as is presented by Distrowatch. So I would not call this biased, but a good stimulus to think about the public image of Gentoo.
While the message might be somewhat right (which is debatable, personally I'd disagree), the details and presented facts mentioned in that article are completely off-track, see nightmorphs comment there for a few things that are wrong with that article.

The point is, even if the article is offish in some technicalities, this is how Gentoo is being perceived from the outside looking in, and it's not a pretty picture.

Paapaa · Post by **Paapaa** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:05 pm

There was a good comment here:

http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/nig ... _me#c18488

Organizational issues are harder, but that's another discussion centered more around finding people who are both very technically competent and are willing to assume leadership. Believe it or not, if ciaranm was willing to take the position of a "benevolent dictator", I'd support him. Why? Because he's highly competent, likely to lead by example, and likely to attract other people who thrive in an abrasive, technocrat environment. If you follow the kernel development community, it's just like that, with Linus' character not that far from e.g. ciaranm's.

EzInKy · Post by **EzInKy** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:10 pm

Well, the article's now on slashdot as well. Guess that's one thing about OSS development...if you can't clean your dirty laundry in private then eventually it gets a public airing.

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:22 pm

Paapaa wrote:There was a good comment here:

http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/nig ... _me#c18488

Organizational issues are harder, but that's another discussion centered more around finding people who are both very technically competent and are willing to assume leadership. Believe it or not, if ciaranm was willing to take the position of a "benevolent dictator", I'd support him. Why? Because he's highly competent, likely to lead by example, and likely to attract other people who thrive in an abrasive, technocrat environment. If you follow the kernel development community, it's just like that, with Linus' character not that far from e.g. ciaranm's.

Competent people don't always make competent leaders, Ciaran least of all given his complete lack of people skills.

gentoo-dev · Post by **gentoo-dev** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:24 pm

Genone wrote: That article must be a joke, I wonder who wrote that crap. It's full of incorrect facts and wrong conclusions, calling it "biased" is very moderate.

How typical.
Instead of calling Ladislav a joker and a crap writer, maybe you should ask yourself why he wrote that article, why he feels Gentoo is going down and what you can do about it.
Even if the only problem is people believe there is a problem where there is none, it is a problem.

brullonulla wrote: I read the mailing list thread, and it's hard to understand who is "right".

When two kids are fighting in the school yard, you ask neither who's right and who's wrong, nor who started it. You punish them both.

AidanJT wrote: Respect is earned, not demanded.

Respect should be granted, no matter what or whom.

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:31 pm

gentoo-dev wrote:
AidanJT wrote: Respect is earned, not demanded.
Respect should be granted, no matter what or whom.

You can't 'grant' respect, you either respect someone or something or you don't. You can't respect someone who constantly trolls, and poisons Gentoo to the core even after he's been kicked out regardless of contributions.

Naib · Post by **Naib** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:31 pm

gentoo-dev wrote:
AidanJT wrote: Respect is earned, not demanded.
Respect should be granted, no matter what or whom.

sorry thats just wrong!

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:37 pm

Me, personally, I'm fed up of things breaking in 'x86' which is suppose to be stable, and people committing broke eclasses without bothering to test them. And the more good devs we lose the worse it seems to be getting.