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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Tony0945 wrote:
I will not be bullied by asturm

If you feel bullied then raise an issue with moderators, otherwise shut up.

YOU shut up!

Everyone knows a dev is always supported over a user. That's why you feel impervious.
You pollute this forum.
Now go cry over that! Like all bullies that are stood up to.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad we clarified our differences once again through the use of censorship. Good Job!!!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
I'm glad we clarified our differences once again through the use of censorship. Good Job!!!
there is no censorship... A thread was locked as you went full incoherent retard.
Many of us told you that it is possible to have a systemd free system but you you carries on. Neddy did the right think in temporary locking that thread

That isn't censorship anyway...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
asturm wrote:
Tony0945 wrote:
I will not be bullied by asturm

If you feel bullied then raise an issue with moderators, otherwise shut up.

YOU shut up!

Everyone knows a dev is always supported over a user. That's why you feel impervious.
You pollute this forum.
Now go cry over that! Like all bullies that are stood up to.

Spoken like a real grown-up. :roll: Thanks for making my case, I guess.

Lesson for the future, dear Tony0945: If you can't take the backlash, don't make unsubstantiated claims.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much, Neddy, for the Locking of the original thread and the move of certain posts here.

I do not know how others felt, but I certainly needed that "cool-down time" ;-)

axl wrote:
Any of you open rc folks want to post how many custom files they have in /etc/portage to obtain that systemd free system?
I will gladly answer that: None. There is no need to patch anything to have a systemd-free Gentoo. Sure, you may have to avoid certain packages. But that's just the game.

Edit: After having lunch a question arose: What do you people actually mean when you talk about a "systemd-free" system?

I bet that this question is important. For me, "systemd-free" simply means, that sys-apps/systemd is not installed. But I do not care if some packages install unit files to support a possible systemd installation. And I am running both eudev and elogind. Thus rip-offs of systemd-udev and systemd-logind.

So if someone else uses the expression "systemd-free" to describe a system where not a single bit that is associated with the systemd project can be found, the grand misunderstanding waits right around the corner. I'd call that a "systemd-support-free" system.

We really should get clear what means what.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
In the locked thread Neddyseagoon sid:
Quote:
Tony0945,

That's where we are today.
Gentoo is portage and the ::gentoo repository. Everything else is upstream.

This fork would be an overlay, much as other derivative distros are overlays rather than forks.

In that case my overlays are the fork. I'll make them public if there is more interest than the five other people that I've counted.
OTOH, if at least three of these five (and I greatly respect the work of all of them in the support topics) would assist me in ebuild update, I'll do it.


I'll help out when I have time...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me it's fairly simple: a systemd free system means you're not running systemd (as PID 1 or any other). Running eudev or elogind doesn't count, as those are forks and don't rely on systemd to work like the parts they are derived from do. Same goes for gnome, there are people actively working to ensure that it works fine without systemd (coughFuntoocough).

The person whose posts were dumped into this thread is just repeating the tired old shibboleth of 'systemd won, get over it!', and can be pretty much ignored as they are not contributing anything meaningful to the thread (other than yet another objective lesson of the methods used by the systemd promoters).
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:

 eselect profile list | grep "\*"
  [16]  default/linux/amd64/17.0/desktop (stable) *

 grep systemd /etc/portage/ -R
/etc/portage/make.profile/gnome/systemd/parent:../../../../../../../targets/systemd
/etc/portage/make.profile/plasma/systemd/parent:../../../../../../../targets/systemd
/etc/portage/make.conf:samba smbclient spell svg -systemd

readlink /proc/1/exe
/sbin/init

equery b /sbin/init
 * Searching for /sbin/init ...
sys-apps/sysvinit-2.90 (/sbin/init)

 equery b /sbin/udevd
 * Searching for /sbin/udevd ...
sys-fs/eudev-3.2.5 (/sbin/udevd)


$ screenfetch
         -/oyddmdhs+:.                naib@fluid
     -odNMMMMMMMMNNmhy+-`             OS: Gentoo testing
   -yNMMMMMMMMMMMNNNmmdhy+-           Kernel: x86_64 Linux 4.16.10-gentoo
 `omMMMMMMMMMMMMNmdmmmmddhhy/`        Uptime: 1h 44m
 omMMMMMMMMMMMNhhyyyohmdddhhhdo`      Packages: 1222
.ydMMMMMMMMMMdhs++so/smdddhhhhdm+`    Shell: bash 4.4.23
 oyhdmNMMMMMMMNdyooydmddddhhhhyhNd.   Resolution: 1920x1080
  :oyhhdNNMMMMMMMNNNmmdddhhhhhyymMh   WM: OpenBox
    .:+sydNMMMMMNNNmmmdddhhhhhhmMmy   WM Theme: Clearlooks-3.4
       /mMMMMMMNNNmmmdddhhhhhmMNhs:   GTK Theme: Adwaita [GTK2/3]
    `oNMMMMMMMNNNmmmddddhhdmMNhs+`    Icon Theme: Tango
  `sNMMMMMMMMNNNmmmdddddmNMmhs/.      Font: Sans 10
 /NMMMMMMMMNNNNmmmdddmNMNdso:`        CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 1600 Six-Core @ 12x 3.2GHz [44.0°C]
+MMMMMMMNNNNNmmmmdmNMNdso/-           GPU: GeForce GTX 970
yMMNNNNNNNmmmmmNNMmhs+/-`             RAM: 1947MiB / 16053MiB
/hMMNNNNNNNNMNdhs++/-`               
`/ohdmmddhys+++/:.`                 
  `-//////:--.                       


it is quite simple to run without systemd... it is a choice on gentoo
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I run a systemd-free system. I also don't run dbus (as I personally see no use for it).

I do run eudev, but I do have a perfectly valid dev structure underneath the eudev mounted one, so I could go (e)udev free if I so desired.
I don't run elogind as I run neither kde, gnome or any other DE that needs it. If I did I would use it.

---

Re axl, all I can do is shake my head, as users like him don't do any other users any good.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I don't run elogind as I run neither kde, gnome or any other DE that needs it.

I have KDE on two laptops running Gentoo, and both use ConsoleKit, not elogind. Unless something is about to change regarding KDE requirements in Gentoo, KDE does not need elogind.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
I don't run elogind as I run neither kde, gnome or any other DE that needs it.

I have KDE on two laptops running Gentoo, and both use ConsoleKit, not elogind. Unless something is about to change regarding KDE requirements in Gentoo, KDE does not need elogind.


I was under the impression that kde was using systemd/elogind as a login mechanism, thanks for that correction. :)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
I don't run elogind as I run neither kde, gnome or any other DE that needs it.

I have KDE on two laptops running Gentoo, and both use ConsoleKit, not elogind. Unless something is about to change regarding KDE requirements in Gentoo, KDE does not need elogind.


I was under the impression that kde was using systemd/elogind as a login mechanism, thanks for that correction. :)
there was talks of it a few years back but that hasn't occured.
Right now it's only gnome going that route
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
I don't run elogind as I run neither kde, gnome or any other DE that needs it.

I have KDE on two laptops running Gentoo, and both use ConsoleKit, not elogind. Unless something is about to change regarding KDE requirements in Gentoo, KDE does not need elogind.

I was under the impression that kde was using systemd/elogind as a login mechanism, thanks for that correction. :)

Mind you, elogind is required if using KDE with Wayland in a non-systemd Gentoo installation. And guess who develops Wayland... Yep, it's another freedesktop.org project.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
Mind you, elogind is required if using KDE with Wayland in a non-systemd Gentoo installation. And guess who develops Wayland... Yep, it's another freedesktop.org project.
Bloody hell, is that still not finished? They've been bleating on about it for nearly a decade, seems like.
Give me X anyday.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
Mind you, elogind is required if using KDE with Wayland in a non-systemd Gentoo installation. And guess who develops Wayland... Yep, it's another freedesktop.org project.
Bloody hell, is that still not finished? They've been bleating on about it for nearly a decade, seems like.
Give me X anyday.
You're not kidding. I have no more interest in that than systemd. The first thing that really put me off about Wayland was when I heard that it wouldn't support the equivalent of X11Forwarding (and I mean X11Forwarding and not some Windows RDP imitation). I use that all the time so that's a non-starter for me right there. To add insult to injury, the Wayland fanboys started making network speed arguments against the concept, as though we're all on 10BASE-T networks again. Here's an issue I ran into that leads me to believe that some projects are flat out forgetting that X can and does even do that:

https://bugs.gentoo.org/660828

I'm still not 100% sure what's going on there, but it certainly appears that imlib2 is trying to access a file descriptor that's on the wrong computer. I had to compile the feature out.

EDIT: I stand correct. As it turned out this was a bug in Xorg.

Tom


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Naib
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They better include X11Forwarding, I use that daily... XmobaTerm into work Linux box as a simulation machine is too useful. Really don't want an entire desktop being rendered....
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
things like the current OpenRC/baselayout most of us prefer to avoid.
asturm wrote:
You mean "us" being a vocal minority in Gentoo Chat?
There you go again, questioning the basis of what has been said, while evading the substantive.
I'll run this by you again, as again you talked past what was being said in the other thread, to act as if suddenly you've "got heart" and care about us "poor lusers" in stark denial of the last few years of bile you seem to enjoy dripping into these fora.
If you recall Naib was doing his usual "no-one's to blame really" bit:
Naib wrote:
This type of vangard over Systemd is a waste of effort and if their developers only worked with the wider community
Yes, it's all just an unfortunate misunderstanding. "I'm sorry Ms Starmer, I didn't mean to shoot your husband and children.. IDK what came over me. If only you and the wider community had worked with me, it might never have happened."
asturm wrote:
Yeah. Never will we get back those hours spent to make up for that
And yet here you are, advocating that we spend yet more wasted years on appeasing asshats who do not give a damn about us, and only see us as "a resource to be exploited" while denigrating everything that keeps us strong, and into "a resource" even worth "exploiting" in the first place.

But that's okay, because the "us" being exploited is not seen as "us" by the "devs" who think they can rat us out whenever a "hiring opportunity" comes along. And then just simply come back when it turns out to be YAF scam over Gentoo.
Y'know, the Gentoo that used to exist as a collaboration amongst users, before your clique decided "let's throw away the rules" that we don't like because the cargo-cult told us so.

So now you've effectively cut the Charter off at the balls, have fun with what is to come.
So here's how I put this last time:
steveL wrote:
The problem is that you refuse even to acknowledge the problems that mean your clique is so susceptible to being made into marks.
And your insipid reply that refuses even to acknowledge what was said.

You cannot keep talking past people, cutting out the bits they said that actually had substance, and acting as if they were never said.
I realise you're only imitating Naib, but his argumentation is nothing to emulate.

You can do much better than this, I am sure. The question is: why do you always take the lazy route of bitchy putdowns, and rhethorical games, rather than simply deal with the substantive.

I am sure your counsellor or therapist will help you explore this more; it really is no-one else's business precisely why you are so unpleasant on such a routine basis.
It is very much our place to ask that you desist, and take a long reflective look at your life instead.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had mixed opinions about Wayland.

As some have mentioned, it's freedesktop.org project. When that name first started showing up it seemed like a good idea. As they've accumulated a track record, that idea has gone downhill. On the other hand, some/many of the good old X11 developers seem to be working on it, and they seem to take things like remote display quite seriously. So that side is not bad. The Wayland fanbois are, if anything, at least as obnoxious as systemd fanbois. They don't even seem to understand why anyone would want remote display - in a way they can't seem to get their noses out of games, or something like that.

Then watching the reality of Wayland - they promised to be a blank slate and do things right - get rid of the backward compatible cruft that kept X11 from advancing. This also extended to security, and how X11 can't be secure, but Wayland can move beyond those problems. Then about a year or so back I started seeing Wayland stuff about interactions between screensavers, screen unlockers, screenshot grabbers, and the like. I seem to remember them adding some sort of ugly kludge in order to get that stuff to all work. Throw away the old mistakes, make new ones.

In the meantime, my day job is on CAD software, which isn't moving off of X11 any time soon.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
As some have mentioned, it's freedesktop.org project. When that name first started showing up it seemed like a good idea. As they've accumulated a track record, that idea has gone downhill.

Pulseaudio; systemd; Predictable Network Interface Names; Wayland. That's quite a track record. :twisted:
Whenever I see that freedesktop.org is involved in a project, I start to get nervous.

depontius wrote:
Then about a year or so back I started seeing Wayland stuff about interactions between screensavers, screen unlockers, screenshot grabbers, and the like. I seem to remember them adding some sort of ugly kludge in order to get that stuff to all work. Throw away the old mistakes, make new ones.

Always reminds me of the xkcd cartoon Standards.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
They better include X11Forwarding, I use that daily... XmobaTerm into work Linux box as a simulation machine is too useful. Really don't want an entire desktop being rendered....
Apparently not:
https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html#heading_toc_j_8

Count me out for sure.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Thank you very much, Neddy, for the Locking of the original thread and the move of certain posts here.

I do not know how others felt, but I certainly needed that "cool-down time" ;-)

axl wrote:
Any of you open rc folks want to post how many custom files they have in /etc/portage to obtain that systemd free system?
I will gladly answer that: None. There is no need to patch anything to have a systemd-free Gentoo. Sure, you may have to avoid certain packages. But that's just the game.

Edit: After having lunch a question arose: What do you people actually mean when you talk about a "systemd-free" system?

I bet that this question is important. For me, "systemd-free" simply means, that sys-apps/systemd is not installed. But I do not care if some packages install unit files to support a possible systemd installation. And I am running both eudev and elogind. Thus rip-offs of systemd-udev and systemd-logind.

So if someone else uses the expression "systemd-free" to describe a system where not a single bit that is associated with the systemd project can be found, the grand misunderstanding waits right around the corner. I'd call that a "systemd-support-free" system.

We really should get clear what means what.


technically you could have a system that actually has systemd installed, but not used. so what i mean by systemd-free system is a system that doesn't use systemd as init at boot.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so.. you could technically install gentoo with systemd useflag and still not use systemd. technically.

in my opinion, servers don't technically need systemd. they could work without it.

but desktops... it's becoming harder and harder to run a desktop without systemd because peripherals and how they are handled. because of how (at least in gnome) things are moving towards (at some point) mobile devices. 20 years ago linux didn't have "users". it only had sysadmins masquarading as users. u had a linux, u had to administer it yourself. and 20 years ago was a totally different thing. but now...

i freaking hated systemd when it first came out. i didn't know what it was. why it pulled those weird dependencies. what happened to my kernel and my system and my dev. i was so confused and i hated it. but powered on and tried to understand it... and it's not that bad actually, once u get to know it. at this point i'm confident i have enough skills to manipulate and change anything and everything about my init system, may it be openrc or systemd. and i prefer systemd, knowing both of them pretty well.

if you are one of the folks that knows how to manually do in openrc shells to emulate systemd... that's great for you. awesum.

but my original point still stands. I don't think gentoo/gentoo devs should be required to give that. everyone moved to systemd. because hey... now linux has users. who would have known?! and gentoo should keep with the times. that's all i'm saying.

the useflag "openrc" doesn't guaranty you an openrc distro. using the official portage tree you have to know some stuff to make an openrc distro out of gentoo. gentoo doesn't do it for you. especially if you want gnome3. so to say gentoo is an openrc distro is a lie.

the night i first entered in this conversation, I was on a youtube run watching gentoo videos. SO MANY that support that idea. gentoo is the last openrc distro. it's not. it's simply not. even leaving gnome3 aside, there are tons of apps that pull systemd as a dependency and that is because it is. that program uses either this that or the other. I dont expect gentoo devs to make forks out of every single one of those programs just to avoid systemd.

and ultimately why? i can't think of ONE daemon that benefited from openrc shell type file but had to suffer under systemd.

I really don't know / understand what y'all problem is with systemd. i really don't. i'm not trying to be thick or sarcastic. I just don't get it. It's C code that you can read for yourself. Where is the mistrust coming from? Why do people want to get stuck in the 80's with IPC? I honestly don't get it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
but desktops... it's becoming harder and harder to run a desktop without systemd because peripherals and how they are handled.

That's nonsense. I've got keyboards, graphics tablets, gamepads, bluetooth devices, external disks, internal disks, network drives, authenticated networks, and they all work fine. At worst the bluetooth stuff only needs a system dbus-daemon running for pairing.

I've never needed systemd or anything systemd-adjacent for that. Hell, I'm not even running openrc. Linux works fine when it's not buried in endless layers of needless complexity and bandages to hide that complexity.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
axl wrote:
but desktops... it's becoming harder and harder to run a desktop without systemd because peripherals and how they are handled.

That's nonsense. I've got keyboards, graphics tablets, gamepads, bluetooth devices, external disks, internal disks, network drives, authenticated networks, and they all work fine. At worst the bluetooth stuff only needs a system dbus-daemon running for pairing.


Like I said, atm, you can still compile gentoo with +systemd and still not use it.

But i'm pretty sure in 5 years time more and more programs will be integrated with systemd&co. And at that point I don't think any one of us really wants gentoo devs focused on forks for programs that run without systemd.

and it's not about you or me. it's about the new people coming into this community. at least after 25 years we can share journalctl and systemctl and have a unified understanding of how things work.

take a minute, and before posting another thing, do me a favor and don't start the first sentence with "I". because it's wrong.

Ssystemd probably wasn't made for you. it was made for all the other people that aren't you, or as skilled as you. because linux is branching out. no longer satisfied with being careful about who his friends are.
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
so.. you could technically install gentoo with systemd useflag and still not use systemd. technically.

in my opinion, servers don't technically need systemd. they could work without it.


Why install something you aren't going to need or use? It's just another vector for attacks.

Quote:

but desktops... it's becoming harder and harder to run a desktop without systemd because peripherals and how they are handled. because of how (at least in gnome) things are moving towards (at some point) mobile devices. 20 years ago linux didn't have "users". it only had sysadmins masquarading as users. u had a linux, u had to administer it yourself. and 20 years ago was a totally different thing. but now...


My desktop works just fine without systemd. I don't run GNOME. Specifically, I don't like what they design of GNOME 3 since it hobbles my workflow, so I don't use GNOME 3, but rather Mate (GNOME 2 - even then, I only switched from GNOME 1 + E16 to GNOME 2 several years after the initial release of GNOME 2, once they added the functionality I need back into GNOME).

If you or your users need someone to hold their hand, then you do. Myself and my users don't, so why should I cripple us?

Quote:

i freaking hated systemd when it first came out. i didn't know what it was. why it pulled those weird dependencies. what happened to my kernel and my system and my dev. i was so confused and i hated it. but powered on and tried to understand it... and it's not that bad actually, once u get to know it. at this point i'm confident i have enough skills to manipulate and change anything and everything about my init system, may it be openrc or systemd. and i prefer systemd, knowing both of them pretty well.

if you are one of the folks that knows how to manually do in openrc shells to emulate systemd... that's great for you. awesum.


What makes you think that we want to emulate systemd in the first place? We've spent years detailing different aspects of systemd that we not only find technically unsound, but outright harmful and dangerous. Don't think that our opposition to systemd is based out of simple comfort/familiarity with openrc or sysvinit - those of us you're arguing with probably know system engineering better than you do. Most of us have decades of experience with UNIX, POSIX, shell scripting, C, etc.

As the saying goes, those whom don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.

Quote:

but my original point still stands. I don't think gentoo/gentoo devs should be required to give that. everyone moved to systemd. because hey... now linux has users. who would have known?! and gentoo should keep with the times. that's all i'm saying.


Correction - everyone moved to Microsoft, particularly on the desktop. Linux still has roughly the same market share of the desktop as it did pre-systemd. Regardless, popularity isn't indicative of quality. Likewise, homogeneity is a WEAKNESS when it comes to security. If all of the routers from a specific brand share the same weakness (say, a factory backdoor password), all of those routers can be trivially hacked. If systemd has a security flaw that allows privilege escalation by manipulating PID1, every systemd based distro is possibly exposed. Diversity is a GOOD thing when it comes to security, as it limiting the attack surface (arguably systemd's biggest weakness is the lack of coherent design combined with owning PID1, poorly implementing lots of functionality that belongs in other packages (look at the DNS bugs in it), and constantly rewriting or adding more large chunks of code, so nobody can really be sure what any version is doing - it's alpha quality at best). See also the Pwnie award systemd "won".

Quote:

the useflag "openrc" doesn't guaranty you an openrc distro. using the official portage tree you have to know some stuff to make an openrc distro out of gentoo. gentoo doesn't do it for you. especially if you want gnome3. so to say gentoo is an openrc distro is a lie.


This just in. Gentoo gives you the freedom to do what you want with your system (at least when tyrannical devs aren't trying to force their choices on you), including the freedom to make mistakes and, most importantly, the freedom to learn. That said, I didn't have to do anything to make Gentoo an openrc system - everything works and all I did was block systemd to make sure a dev didn't try to force their opinions on me. I choose not to use GNOME 3 - there are literally dozens of other window managers in portage that someone might want instead of GNOME 3.

The question is, if you're so happy with the RedHat base system - systemd, GNOME 3, etc, why are YOU using Gentoo instead of RedHat, Fedora, or one of it's near clones like Debian? The entire point of systemd was to standardize the Linux desktop on systemd because RH couldn't pwn Linus and the kernel. The idea was everyone talks to systemd and systemd talks to the kernel. The entire purpose was to usurp control so that RedHat could monopolize and monetize Linux support. Why even have any other distros if RedHat's are the only ones that matter?

Quote:

the night i first entered in this conversation, I was on a youtube run watching gentoo videos. SO MANY that support that idea. gentoo is the last openrc distro. it's not. it's simply not. even leaving gnome3 aside, there are tons of apps that pull systemd as a dependency and that is because it is. that program uses either this that or the other. I dont expect gentoo devs to make forks out of every single one of those programs just to avoid systemd.


Most packages don't hard depend on systemd. Instead, they have a soft preference which favors systemd because of the way that certain devs try to nudge you to do it their way. Some packages have tried to force users into systemd just because the maintainer wants to force systemd on people - a simple addition for a USE flag makes it go away. Sometimes, there's a bump which forces systemd but gets revised because the force was "an oversight" - it's happened enough that I don't believe it is simple coincidence, but I'm sure plenty of people have unwittingly switched to systemd, or at least stopped fighting it and let it take over, since they consistently "break" it in the favor of systemd.

Quote:

and ultimately why? i can't think of ONE daemon that benefited from openrc shell type file but had to suffer under systemd.


Want one? Tell systemd to fix NFS. To them, it's WONTFIX NOTABUG. I don't have any problems with my NFS mounts though.

Quote:

I really don't know / understand what y'all problem is with systemd. i really don't. i'm not trying to be thick or sarcastic. I just don't get it. It's C code that you can read for yourself. Where is the mistrust coming from? Why do people want to get stuck in the 80's with IPC? I honestly don't get it.


Go through and read all the systemd threads here. We've spent hundreds of hours laying out the faults and it's gets tiring to have to restate them every time some new systemd crusader comes to repeat the same "hurr, you guys just don't understand it, you're too stuck in the past and don't want to learn anything new." We know C and we know what a mess the systemd code is. We know UNIX and we stick to the principle of "do one thing and do it well." We've discussed how the kernel has had great, modern IPC support for a decade that the systemd devs either chose to ignore, couldn't bother to investigate, didn't understand, or intentionally chose to reinvent poorly because NIH syndrome. Basically, educate yourself before you say you don't understand what our problem with systemd is.

Furthermore, openrc has repeatedly, intentionally been crippled by a systemd dev that is intentionally wanting to harm it's functionality so it isn't any better than systemd. That same dev got on the Council, where he pushed the Council to approve the breaking of sep-usr, deliberately ignored patches that ensured continued support for sep-usr, etc, all because poettering decided he didn't see a use case for sep-usr. Him and his friends also took over a number of other committes to run protection for them. So, they've actively been waging a war on us. I, personally, have always supported the choice of systemd for those that want it, and only became involved because of the abuse of him and a handful of others that would like to see systemd as the only choice.
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