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axl
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
axl wrote:
Convoluted and complicated and I feel for you brother. What else could I say?

I'm thankful for my setup. And especially to my users.

I can relate to everything you said, except that last one part. backup on shutdown. backup where and why? and why not backup on mount or umount? teach your users to umount. and use a udev rule to backup at umount. don't allow backup blindly, any device at any time. ask your users to tell you which devices they are going to use and want to be backed up. take their characteristics, move em in /etc/udev/rules.d


just suggestions :)

That doesn't answer the original point, though, does it?


I'll use your solution. Yes and no. Depends on the admin. :)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
Single-seat, multi-user (at least five), so any of those users could have a logged-in session simultaneously, but only one user at a time (single-seat) can be using her session

Just like any all purpose family computer use by all members. It seems pretty easy to get this.

Precisely. Totally non-technical family members who have zero understanding of operating systems. It was hard enough getting them to accept Linux, let alone expect them to actually log off after they have finished, or to not Switch User when another user has stopped using the machine temporarily (and why shouldn't they, in any case?). Forget asking any of them to run a backup script or application, or even double-click on an admin-created icon on the desktop. They did all this without any problems in Windows, so they expect to be able to do the same in Linux. We are not talking geeks or office users here. Not to mention short memories and fallibility. In OpenRC, dropping a Bash script in /etc/local.d/ does the job. In systemd it is more complicated (unit file plus Bash script). Both solutions work, but it took me longer to develop a solution that worked reliably in the case of systemd. Does that mean I will stop using binary distributions that ship with systemd? No, it doesn't. Does that mean OpenRC should be dropped in Gentoo, in favour of systemd? No. The only feature of systemd I find easier than in OpenRC is masking/unmasking a service (and I, personally, have never needed to do that on my machines). It is possible in OpenRC, but involves editing an initscript, whereas in systemd it can be done from the command line. Other than that, since the advent of systemd I have never felt the slightest need or desire to migrate to systemd from OpenRC in Gentoo. In the binary distributions I use, I had no choice; the developers adopted systemd. Does that mean I won't use those distributions? No. Does that automatically mean I want to switch to systemd in Gentoo? No. Why should I? I have zero trouble with OpenRC, and, indeed, as this particular example shows, a particular solution is not necessarily easier or better in systemd.

axl wrote:
Depends on the admin.

There is no point being flippant. An admin can only do so much. Especially when she is not present at the site where the system is used, and especially when non-technical users have access to the machine. For example, try getting a non-technical geriatric to remember to carry out a specific task infallibly.
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axl
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
There is no point being flippant. An admin can only do so much. Especially when she is not present at the site where the system is used, and especially when non-technical users have access to the machine. For example, try getting a non-technical geriatric to remember to carry out a specific task infallibly.


okok. pls forgive me for addressing you as a he. are we cool?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
pls forgive me for addressing you as a he. are we cool?

Nothing to forgive. My gender is immaterial to the discussion we're having and the point I am making, and you can address me as a male (Fitzcarraldo is not female, and perhaps I'm not either). And, yes, we are cool.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
And, yes, we are cool.


thank you.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
I don't run elogind as I run neither kde, gnome or any other DE that needs it.

I have KDE on two laptops running Gentoo, and both use ConsoleKit, not elogind. Unless something is about to change regarding KDE requirements in Gentoo, KDE does not need elogind.

I was under the impression that kde was using systemd/elogind as a login mechanism, thanks for that correction. :)

Mind you, elogind is required if using KDE with Wayland in a non-systemd Gentoo installation. And guess who develops Wayland... Yep, it's another freedesktop.org project.
And power management. On a laptop where you want to suspend/hibernate as a user, you need systemd-login/elogind.

That is incorrect. You do not need systemd-logind or elogind. I can both suspend and hibernate from the KDE Plasma 5 Application Launcher, and from the KDE Desktop (right-click menu), and from the LightDM GTK+ Greeter from my laptop running Gentoo with X Windows, OpenRC and ConsoleKit.
Oh? That's good to hear! That is quite new, then. (Well, "new" in the understanding that my last test of what elogind is needed for was several months ago.)

I am curious, did the PowerDevil developers accept ConsoleKit2 support again, or is ConsoleKit2 indeed offering an org.freedesktop.login1 service via dbus now?

The cool thing about KDE is, that they do not hook into any API, like all the others do. They just call a dbus service. Either it is there, or not. From the KDE PLasma point of view it is completely irrelevant what you have installed, as long as something provides an org.freedesktop.login1 service. No dependencies to any libraries, headers, no recompile, patching, relinking, nothing.
...if dbus is good for anything, it's at least that...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
I am curious, did the PowerDevil developers accept ConsoleKit2 support again, or is ConsoleKit2 indeed offering an org.freedesktop.login1 service via dbus now?

https://packages.gentoo.org/useflags/consolekit

Quote:
Packages describing "consolekit" as local USE flag

Package                       "consolekit" Flag Description
[...]
kde-plasma/powerdevil    Enable sys-auth/consolekit support instead of logind session tracking
[...]

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
The cool thing about KDE is, that they do not hook into any API, like all the others do. They just call a dbus service.


That in itself is an API.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
The cool thing about KDE is, that they do not hook into any API, like all the others do. They just call a dbus service.


That in itself is an API.


I probably would have used the term "cancer" instead :lol:

It's getting harder to have a system that doesn't need dbus for some little package or other, simply because upstream is (take your pick)
1. too stupid.
2. unaware of any other communication mechanism that's been around since forever
3. they're secretly in love with RH and its minions

:twisted:
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
The cool thing about KDE is, that they do not hook into any API, like all the others do. They just call a dbus service.


That in itself is an API.
:roll: You know what I mean.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:

It's getting harder to have a system that doesn't need dbus for some little package or other, simply because upstream is (take your pick)
1. too stupid.
2. unaware of any other communication mechanism that's been around since forever
3. they're secretly in love with RH and its minions

Or all of the above!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
:roll: You know what I mean.

Yeah, but I felt like being pedantic. It must be a common affliction. I see many long threads on this forum arguing points like that.
Sorry that I gave in to temptation.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure,

For info, since June 2017 LightDM also supports ConsoleKit2. See the commits on the LightDM site listed at https://launchpad.net/bugs/1631707

LightDM developer Robert Ancell wrote:
Use power management functions from ConsoleKit2 if available.

Suspend and hibernate functionality was removed from upower 0.99.0, so systems not using systemd had no suspend/hibernate functionality. Support for this was added into ConsoleKit2.

Most systems will either be systemd or ConsoleKit2 now, so we [LightDM] try the following:
1. Power management in logind
2. Power management in ConsoleKit
3. upower for suspend/resume (really only here to not break backwards compatibility)

(My emphasis.)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:

It's getting harder to have a system that doesn't need dbus for some little package or other, simply because upstream is (take your pick)
1. too stupid.
2. unaware of any other communication mechanism that's been around since forever
3. they're secretly in love with RH and its minions

Or all of the above!
Well, there is one thing that you can do with dbus that you can't otherwise, and KDE is using it: Drop-In replacements.

KDE is the only project where I did not need to do anything. Everywhere else (I wrote most of the patches that add elogind support) it is all the same stupid thing:
Somewhere: include systemd/sd-login.h
General: Link to libsystemd.so

What is wrong with that?
Simple: If you decide to switch between ConsoleKit2, elogind and systemd-login, you have to rebuild everything that uses it this way.
Further it limits binary distributions. They are either forced to make a choice, or have to provide multiple binary packages of the same software. Ugly.

And KDE Plasma?
Doesn't care. Stop one, install the other, and it gets directly used. No header or library linking involved.

So for this, none of the 3 points counts.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Well, there is one thing that you can do with dbus that you can't otherwise, and KDE is using it: Drop-In replacements.

KDE is the only project where I did not need to do anything.


Kudo's to the kde people, now if only we could get the 90% of other people/projects to do something similar.


Edit to add: 2 still somewhat applies, because they still could have used another IPC mechanism, but still good on them for not baking login stuff in.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand why they would link... its a bus ...
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
I don't understand why they would link... its a bus ...


It's not like there haven't been other IPC mechanisms around since ... well forever in unix terms.

I've written many a program (for companies) in the 80's and 90's that communicated between various processes, all before dbus was even a gleam in Pennington's eye.
And guess what ... they worked and well at that.

Dbus brought nothing new to the table. It's just another variation of NIH being invoked.
"Oh look, new and shiny ... must be better" :roll:
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Writing software that's modular isn't very hard, it does require a little forethought but it's not that difficult.

One can write code where, say Oracle for example, is sprinkled all through the codebase, OR
one can write code that stays within it's modular area and talks to an interface thus being able to be swapped out with anything else that talks to that interface.

If systemd were written properly then the individual pieces could have been separated out.
Don't like binary logging, then use something else that writes to the "logging interface", etc.
But when you do that, you don't have the ability to lock people in to your software even if they don't use 80%-90% of what is offered.

Systemd as simply an init system, seems to be a good idea and had they stopped there, it would have been fine.
Then they could have had another module that does logging, networking, and all the other stuff they've tried to shove into the monolithic monstrosity that they keep trying to convince others is modular, when it truly isn't.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Writing software that's modular isn't very hard, it does require a little forethought but it's not that difficult.

Sadly, from my experiences on political blogs, yes, thinking is very hard for most people.

Anon-E-moose wrote:

Systemd as simply an init system, seems to be a good idea and had they stopped there, it would have been fine.
Then they could have had another module that does logging, networking, and all the other stuff they've tried to shove into the monolithic monstrosity that they keep trying to convince others is modular, when it truly isn't.

But that is the intent. To be another Microsoft, where famously "The web browser is an inseparable part of the operating system".

A young non-technical co-worker told me about ten years ago, "I found out that you can get a free Windows! It's called Linux." I told him, "Linux is not a free Windows. It's a free Unix". Just got a blank stare in response. Also reminds me of those who think Ubuntu==Linux.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Dbus brought nothing new to the table. It's just another variation of NIH being invoked.
"Oh look, new and shiny ... must be better" :roll:
Erm, yes. Dbus brought nothing new to the table except
  • With most other mechanisms your communication partner must be running and available. With D-Bus they can be woken/started by D-Bus on demand.
  • With D-Bus you can broadcast, reaching all recipients that subscribed to the event you announce. (Works theoretically with other mechanisms, too, but you'll had to implement that by hand everywhere yourself.)
  • D-Bus has various language bindings. (Well, doesn't really count in my eyes though...)
  • D-Bus provides a standardized message serialization.
If you just want two processes to talk to each other, you do not need D-Bus. It's overkill. A pipe, fifo or socket is enough, most of the time. Where they aren't, there's shared memory. Or one of the myriad of other possibilities.

But if you want to provided "unforeseen" communication between 1-n processes and 1-n services, the non-D-Bus IPC mechanisms won't do, unless you were willing to implement your communication goals everywhere by hand and from scratch.
"Huh? What is that supposed to mean?"
Well, take PowerDevil. With D-Bus it does not need to care who provides the service it needs, or whether that "who" is started. Without D-Bus it needed to interface directly with ConsoleKit2, systemd-logind and elogind on a source level, or via sockets. And if none of the sockets were there, because neither was (yet) started, nothing could be done.
Now that's not too bad for one user of that service. But if there are a dozen...

However, the main problem I have with all this is not the mere existence of D-Bus. We were "happy" (or at least okay) with DCOP, too, and D-Bus is something like DCOP-NG.
No, my main problem is that everyone starts throwing D-Bus service files around when a simple socket would do.

Even the D-Bus developers state, that "The D-Bus authors would not recommend using D-Bus for applications where it doesn't make sense. (...) D-Bus is neither intended nor claimed to be the right choice for every application.".
...too bad so many "upstreams" don't heed that and indeed go "Oh look, new and shiny ... must be better"...
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
"Oh look, new and shiny ... must be better"...

Fixing it with ""Oh look, new and shiny ... IT IS better"...
I don't see how you might doubt they have themselves any doubt.
And the reasoning is not a surprise, that's what they brainwash them for years ; and what we always get as first proof of superiorty of product coming from that family (systemd and friends) ; that argument appears every 3-4 posts in systemd threads.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbus in and of itself is not a problem, using for everything just because ... is the problem.

Systemd init OK
binary logging OK
Now need dbus to talk to logging section ... oh wait dbus isn't started yet ... oh wait we'll try and shove some half-assed approach into the kernel to fix that problem
INSTEAD of rethinking the need for dbus, by either buffering the messages or using the kernel built in printing function.

Do I really need dbus to have the login module to talk to a piece of software? Or can I use existing IPC mechanisms that already exist in libc or the kernel?
If I'm trying to log in, and say kde isn't up and running, does it matter whether I use an IPC that doesn't have 2 endpoints or dbus who will ignore that fact?
I'm not going to log into kde either way, but one can be far more convoluted than the other.

The problem is ill thought out problems with even more ill thought out solutions.

Having a hammer in the toolbox doesn't mean it's the right solution for every problem. Not every problem is a nail.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Erm, yes. Dbus brought nothing new to the table except[list]
Erm, nope.
You really should do your research before making such bald assertions.
It's not like this has not been discussed on these forums, several times that I recall.

Not trying to be offensive: I have a lot of time for you, as you know.
And I agree with you that KDE has a better approach, but that's because they're using dbus as a replacement for DCOP.

DCOP over AF_TIPC is what we want.

dbust turned into crap, ruining the initial protocol spec; systemdbust was, and remains, a crap design from the get-go.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
Mind you, elogind is required if using KDE with Wayland in a non-systemd Gentoo installation. And guess who develops Wayland... Yep, it's another freedesktop.org project.
steveL wrote:
Bloody hell, is that still not finished? They've been bleating on about it for nearly a decade, seems like.
Give me X anyday.
tld wrote:
You're not kidding. I have no more interest in that than systemd. The first thing that really put me off about Wayland was when I heard that it wouldn't support the equivalent of X11Forwarding (and I mean X11Forwarding and not some Windows RDP imitation). I use that all the time so that's a non-starter for me right there. To add insult to injury, the Wayland fanboys started making network speed arguments against the concept, as though we're all on 10BASE-T networks again. Here's an issue I ran into that leads me to believe that some projects are flat out forgetting that X can and does even do that:

https://bugs.gentoo.org/660828
EDIT: I stand correct. As it turned out this was a bug in Xorg.
Lul, happens. You're absolutely right "that some projects are flat out forgetting that X" has had network capability since the beginning.

The bug was interesting, both for the code, and because it was a pleasure to see how well it was handled, especially in terms of manners.

Stands in stark contrast to how obnoxiously others in the "community", like those Wayland fanbois, behave on a routine basis.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: SystemD free system/gentoo Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
berferd wrote:
...
Again ...
Yes, again, you completely ignore the substantive point being made to you, and talk across it in truism and rhetoric, while enjoying that "delicious" feeling of putting down a fellow human-being.
And the chutzpah inherent in the brazen act of cutting out everything he said, simply to rant, is breathtaking.

As for your nonsense about "active mitigation", it is just that: utter nonsense.
We do not want to repolish the systemdbust turd; because it is a turd.

Is that so hard to understand without whinging on and on about other people and how they "just don't get it"?
If so, then tant pis.
Quote:
Stick to the facts, stick to citable critism's, keep the FUD to a minimum and all is good
Stick to hardware, stop pretending you have a clue when it comes to sociopolitical matters (I am sure your wife has a different opinion) or indeed software engineering, and stop putting other people down while ignoring what they are saying; and maybe one day your trite signoffs won't read like YAF putdown.
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