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creaker
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: How to opt out of a semantic-desktop? Reply with quote

Hi!
Today, during world updating, I was faced to requirement to enable semantic-desktop USE flag:
Code:
# required by media-sound/amarok-2.7.1
# required by @selected
# required by @world (argument)
=kde-base/kdelibs-4.10.4 semantic-desktop


semantic-desktop will be the last thing I'll admit to my desktop. So how can I update kde-libs (and the KDE at all) without using semantic-desktop?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the dilfridge blog wrote:
So far we've provided the useflag "semantic-desktop" which in particular controls the nepomuk functionality. Some components of KDE require this functionality unconditionally, and if you try to build without it, bugs and build failures may occur. In addition, by now it is easily and reliably possible to disable e.g. the file indexer at runtime. So, we've decided that starting with KDE 4.11 we will remove the useflag and hard-enable the functionality and the required dependencies in the ebuilds. The changes are being done already in the KDE overlay in the live ebuilds (which build upstream git master and form the templates for the upcoming 4.11 releases).


As a consequence of this, fortunately or unfortunately, you'll get the semantic-desktop stuff built, would you admit it or not.
=> My suggestion is that you enable that use flag when building and then disable what you may find annoying at run time.
You'll then be ready for future releases.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
My suggestion is that you enable that use flag when building and then disable what you may find annoying at run time.


My suggestion is look for another desktop environment.

aCOSwt wrote:
the dilfridge blog wrote:
So, we've decided that starting with KDE 4.11 we will remove the useflag and hard-enable the functionality and the required dependencies in the ebuilds.


:(

I doubt that the objectionable stuff CAN be turned off. My biggest objection (out of many) is being forced to run a database server which is both bloated and inherently insecure. Running a database server (or two with any of the kdepim stuff installed) should never be required on a desktop.

So you are saying that in the future we can't even get something like k3b (on a different desktop environment and with no other kde components) without running virtuoso? Completely inane.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ aCOSwt
Thaks for reply.

Quote:
starting with KDE 4.11 we will remove the useflag and hard-enable the functionality and the required dependencies in the ebuilds.


It is sad news.
The ability to rid semantic desktop out from my desktop was one of reasons I chose gentoo for my desktop (as well as I can use openrc).
But semantic desktop already here... And systemd is knocking on the door...

I think I'll back up my system into stage4 archive instead of updating it.
I'm staying with KDE 4.10, at least until semantic-desktop is hard coded in new versions.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curmudgeon wrote:
I doubt that the objectionable stuff CAN be turned off. My biggest objection (out of many) is being forced to run a database server which is both bloated and inherently insecure. Running a database server (or two with any of the kdepim stuff installed) should never be required on a desktop.

then emerge kdebase-startkde only!
curmudgeon wrote:
So you are saying that in the future we can't even get something like k3b (on a different desktop environment and with no other kde components) without running virtuoso? Completely inane.

I am personally saying nothing here.
All what I can personally say @KDE on gentoo bugzilla is either resolved upstream or closed wontfix!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
I'm staying with KDE 4.10

I won't blame you... I'm still running... 4.9.5 :D
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have three things to say on the topic.
1) Clementine is a very good alternative to Amarok.
2) i3 is a very well designed project. By this I mean it works well and it is built as a number of different elements that each do their jobs well without being required.
3) It seems to be only a matter of time until kde-libs no longer as the option to disable sematic-desktop. Hanging on to older versions will only work for so long before the working ebuilds go away. Personally, I think it would be a mistake to hang on to an older KDE version too far beyond that point due to code rot & other issues. It may stay for a while, but I would start thinking about finding an alternative.

I think its a shame that KDE is removing the configurability from their software. That is one of the things that set KDE apart from Gnome.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea...KDE seems to be going down the same road as Gnome.

I haven't used KDE as a desktop in many many years...I've been using fluxbox, but there are several KDE applications I still like to use. I can't tell you the time I've wasted over the years tweaking use flags to try and prevent all this unspeakable bloat from KDE. This one will tear it for sure for me.

I'm running an update now after uninstalling all traces of KDE. I'm not sure if, afterwards, I'll attempt to install selected programs and see what it wants to install. These are the KDE programs I'd like to have:

kcalc: I've just never found another calculator I like anywhere near as much.
ksnapshot: Maybe someone knows a good alternative.
qwenview: Not a must have, but really nice.
kwallet: The only reason I use this is that I'm a developer and I use a remote SVN repo all the time. My only other options for svn are to either key passwords in every time, or store then in plain text, neither of which I want to do.

Annoying to say the least.

Tom
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
curmudgeon wrote:
I doubt that the objectionable stuff CAN be turned off. My biggest objection (out of many) is being forced to run a database server which is both bloated and inherently insecure. Running a database server (or two with any of the kdepim stuff installed) should never be required on a desktop.

then emerge kdebase-startkde only!


I am missing something here. Kdebase-startkde requires kdelibs, and if kdelibs requires semantic-desktop, then all of the unwanted crap (rasqal, redland, raptor, soprano, and especially virtuoso) is required.

aCOSwt wrote:
curmudgeon wrote:
So you are saying that in the future we can't even get something like k3b (on a different desktop environment and with no other kde components) without running virtuoso? Completely inane.

I am personally saying nothing here.
All what I can personally say @KDE on gentoo bugzilla is either resolved upstream or closed wontfix!


K3b specifically requires kdelibs (with udisks - something else that pulls in a lot of bloat), so it appears what I said will be the case.

tld wrote:
kcalc: I've just never found another calculator I like anywhere near as much.


I use speedcrunch (and recommend it wholeheartedly).
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
...Clementine is a very good alternative to Amarok...

It does not change anything, semantic required by kde-libs, not by amarok itself.

The Doctor wrote:
...Personally, I think it would be a mistake to hang on to an older KDE version too far beyond that point due to code rot & other issues. It may stay for a while, but I would start thinking about finding an alternative.

I think its a shame that KDE is removing the configurability from their software. That is one of the things that set KDE apart from Gnome.


I have all the programs I need installed and configured, so I think making a stage4 and hanging on current version is not the worst option.
Maybe I'll be able to hold out until something changes. Although, to be honest, not very believable that the things will change. It is a global trend - less and less freedom, no matter what is at stake.
Regarding alternatives: I do not see any of them.
So, just have to wait what will happen next...
:cry:
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:31 pm    Post subject: Re: How to opt out of a semantic-desktop? Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
So how can I update kde-libs (and the KDE at all) without using semantic-desktop?

Even if you have to build it now, you can still turn off nepomuk services and file indexing in KDE system settings ('Deskop Search').
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
...Clementine is a very good alternative to Amarok...

It does not change anything, semantic required by kde-libs, not by amarok itself.


Amarok may not have the semantic-desktop use flag itself but it wants a kdelibs with semantic-desktop. I don't know clementine but a emerge -pv clementine indicates it is happy to install on a system without semantic-desktop while amarok refuses to do so.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
Maybe I'll be able to hold out until something changes. Although, to be honest, not very believable that the things will change.


Software can always be forked, and in my opinion no project needs to be forked more than kde does due to the direction they are going, but kde is such a huge project that the chances of that happening seem rather remote.

creaker wrote:
It is a global trend - less and less freedom, no matter what is at stake.


Amen to that.

Slightly off topic - One of the most ironic evolutions in technology is that of Apple's. Remember their "1984" commercial ridiculing the conformity of Microsoft? Today, no company tries to restrict users' choices more than Apple does.

Voltago wrote:
Even if you have to build it now, you can still turn off nepomuk services and file indexing in KDE system settings ('Deskop Search').


What about the scourge that is virtuoso?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

curmudgeon wrote:
What about the scourge that is virtuoso?

Isn't running as a daemon, and none of its shared libraries is loaded (but still will be installed though).


Last edited by Voltago on Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curmudgeon wrote:

tld wrote:
kcalc: I've just never found another calculator I like anywhere near as much.


I use speedcrunch (and recommend it wholeheartedly).


Thanks! Just installed that and it looks great! Not to mention having no dependencies except Qt.

Tom
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aiken wrote:
creaker wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
...Clementine is a very good alternative to Amarok...

It does not change anything, semantic required by kde-libs, not by amarok itself.


Amarok may not have the semantic-desktop use flag itself but it wants a kdelibs with semantic-desktop. I don't know clementine but a emerge -pv clementine indicates it is happy to install on a system without semantic-desktop while amarok refuses to do so.


Just to clarify here - I replaced amarok with clementine several months ago due to phonon/audio problems - it's a qt application - it has no dependency on kde.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the same day it was announced that USE=semantic-desktop will be removed, I wiped KDE from my systems: Eventually it turned out not a big loss. The only things I miss are kdm (slim is a usable alternative, but lacks some features I want), k3b (xfburn works, but AFAIK it does not use the reliable cdrtools but some home-brewn alternative; anyway with its dependency on udisks and thus the non-discussable polkit, I had to remove k3b anyway since quite a while), and no convenient tools for ripping audio cds - this is what troubles me most. kmail2 with its akonadi insanity has already driven me to claws-mail long ago, anyway...
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
and no convenient tools for ripping audio cds - this is what troubles me most.


The command line program abcde does about everything I could ever imagine needing as far as ripping cds. Once you get your ~/.abcde.conf set the way you want the abcde command just does everything.

I totally removed all KDE from my system the other day and have been slowly finding replacements for the KDE stuff I was still using. ksnapshot was one...I wasn't even aware you could do that easily with gimp.

It really is a shame though, that both the gnome and KDE teams seem to be moving in a direction where you can't even use any of their apps without their bloated crap. Until this issue came up, I never even knew what all this crap even was...semantic-desktop, nepomuk, etc, etc. To me it was just stuff I knew I didn't need that I was constantly fighting off. When I read what it was all about, I was stunned at how much it all just sounded like a bunch of crap. I think the KDE team has a terminal case of buzzworditis (or more accurately, self-importance I think). They've totally lost site of the beauty of simplicity that's for sure. That's the main thing that attracted me to Linux, and especially Gentoo, in the first place...being able to have a system that does what I needed in a way where I actually have a good idea as to what's going on under the hood. Gnome and KDE seem to be hell bent on becoming the polar oposite...a Windows-like bloated black box. Amazing.

I can only hope that the result will be to drive users, and more importantly developers, to projects that don't care what desktop you're running.

Tom
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
On the same day it was announced that USE=semantic-desktop will be removed, I wiped KDE from my systems:


I am likely going to follow your lead fairly soon.

mv wrote:
The only things I miss are kdm (slim is a usable alternative, but lacks some features I want),


Slim is not acceptable for me due to the requirement for pam (one of the top packages on my OMDB - over my dead body - list) when build with consolekit (*I* don't need it, but I have to support a number of less technical users who freak out when they can't mount a flash drive or SD card).

mv wrote:
k3b (xfburn works, but AFAIK it does not use the reliable cdrtools but some home-brewn alternative; anyway with its dependency on udisks and thus the non-discussable polkit, I had to remove k3b anyway since quite a while),


I am probably going to end up cheating in this case and just booting a live (kde) dvd on one of the spare machines I have lying around when I need to burn something.

mv wrote:
and no convenient tools for ripping audio cds - this is what troubles me most.


That is surprising because there are so many tools to do that. I think you can even do that in vlc (of course, I am more inclined to just use cdparanoia and ffmpeg from the command line :) ).

tld wrote:
I totally removed all KDE from my system the other day and have been slowly finding replacements for the KDE stuff I was still using. ksnapshot was one...I wasn't even aware you could do that easily with gimp.


There are so many ways to do most stuff like that. I remember for many years using this script for screenshots:

Code:

#!/bin/bash
#set -x
x=1
rnd=$( echo "$(date) $RANDOM"|md5sum|cut -c1-8 )
while [ -f /tmp/screen.$EUID.$rnd.$x.jpg ] ; do
x=$((x+1))
done
screen="/tmp/screen.$EUID.$rnd.$x.jpg"
import "$screen"
if [ $# -gt 0 ] ; then
         if [[ $1 == "print" ]] ; then
                 convert  -page 'Letter-30-30' -geometry 700x525
"$screen" "/tmp/screen.$EUID.$rnd.$x.ps"
                 lpr "/tmp/screen.$EUID.$rnd.$x.ps"
                 rm "/tmp/screen.$EUID.$rnd.$x.ps"
         else
                 xv "$screen"
         fi
fi
exit 0


And much of the script represents an effort to avoid "non-predictable" file names in /tmp (less necessary on a single user system).


Last edited by curmudgeon on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the dilfridge blog wrote:
So far we've provided the useflag "semantic-desktop" which in particular controls the nepomuk functionality. Some components of KDE require this functionality unconditionally, and if you try to build without it, bugs and build failures may occur...


I do not see any reason why this nepomuk should be built in KDE unconditionally. What this f*cking nepomuk is? Is it a driver? Is it a kernel? Is it a system-critical underlying stuff? Is it a bootloader or is it a part of rc? Why it should be built in by default???
It is just an application, as well as kcalc or amarok, no more. Lets embed kcalc or amarok into the system without option to remove or replace them.
But, for some reason, the calculator is not built into the system, as nepomuk is. All the PC users using calculator, but kcalc isn't built in... What the f*ck? Kcalc should be unconditionally built in because all of us using it!
So what is the difference between a calculator and nepomuk? What this nepomuk is? It is a file indexer that collects data about a files I have. To call a spade a spade, this is a spy tool that searches all over my PC and collects info about what I have here and where it came from, ie spying on me.
Why do I have to have it mandatory? It whose decision?
All of this is wrapped in a beautiful shell, supposedly it's very convenient search tool and so on. Moreover, I can install nepomuk and disable it. But the thing is I refuse to follow KDE team because they doing wrong things. Аlthough I was a permanent KDE user for a long time, since I installed linux first time.

It isn't a dependency issue, and not a technical issue at all. It is a security issue. Look around. All of us reads a news. It is a links of one chain
I refuse to be under control.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only practical method to keep KDE running as we want it, is to maintain the patchset in an overlay.

I have NFC how difficult that is or is not: I've not looked at the patches before. I find it difficult to believe, however, that KDE absolutely cannot run without all those libs. What happens on BSD or another platform, which doesn't have them available?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curmudgeon wrote:


Slim is not acceptable for be due to the requirement for pam (one of the top packages on my OMDB - over my dead body - list) when build with consolekit (*I* don't need it, but I have to support a number of less technical users who freak out when they can't mount a flash drive or SD card).

Wow...I'm glad you pointed this out. I'm starting to realize how much bloat I can remove from my system now by rebuilding with -pam, -policykit, and -udisks...*none* of which I need...doing a --newuse as we speak...thanks!

Tom
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curmudgeon wrote:
mv wrote:
On the same day it was announced that USE=semantic-desktop will be removed, I wiped KDE from my systems:


I am likely going to follow your lead fairly soon.


I'm way ahead of you guys. (E17 is really nice, and cut my boot time in half...)
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
mv wrote:
and no convenient tools for ripping audio cds - this is what troubles me most.


The command line program abcde does about everything I could ever imagine needing as far as ripping cds.

Thanks for the hint. I'll give it a try (in several weeks; currently I have nothing to rip and I am too busy).
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curmudgeon wrote:

mv wrote:
The only things I miss are kdm (slim is a usable alternative, but lacks some features I want),


Slim is not acceptable for be due to the requirement for pam

In contrast to faildesktop's lightdm - which depends unconditionally on pam - slim is usable (without pam):
Quote:
less technical users who freak out when they can't mount a flash drive or SD card).

There are tools for it which can do this. Wasn't it "pmount"? Moreover, there are also tools which use that tools to mount even automatically, using (e)udev rules. There were several threads about it in the forums.
Quote:
mv wrote:
and no convenient tools for ripping audio cds - this is what troubles me most.


That is surprising because there are so many tools to do that.

By just inserting the CD, having all titles looked up in a database and saved with corresponding commands and names in a format configurable by you (e.g. spaces replaced by "_"), ripped and converted in an easily adjusted number of parallel tasks with easily configurable options about the quality and treatment in case of CD errors?
Quote:
I think you can even do that in vlc

It was a nice side effect when wiping KDE that I could also get rid of vlc which I used only for kdm's sound system. I was always rather happy with mplayer/mencoder/ffmpeg (or occassionally xine). Maybe I should have a look at it, again.
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