New Conrad Guide

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thoffmeyer · Post by **thoffmeyer** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:05 pm

Tell me your wishes/features/sex you'd want in the guide, srsly people, tell me what YOU want. Kthnx.

kernelOfTruth · Post by **kernelOfTruth** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:16 pm

thoffmeyer wrote:Tell me your wishes/features/sex you'd want in the guide, srsly people, tell me what YOU want. Kthnx.

how about a hardened toolchain + gcc-4.2 + glib-2.6 is that possible? I'm running gcc 4.1.2 + glibc 2.6 here, haven't been able to get a 4.2.0 hardened compiler yet ...

cheater1034 · Post by **cheater1034** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:45 pm

It's also going to have 2.6.22-no1, which is going to have all of con's last patches including SD (SD > CFS), and who knows what else I'll put it.

Also, reiser4 will be there instead of ext4 because ext4 is ridiculously unstable and will break (it did for me).

It should be good, coming back to life

mdeininger · Post by **mdeininger** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:12 pm

sounds good, but i'd strongly advise against reiser4. lots of people seem to have fairly unpredictable issues that change around from kernel to kernel (sometimes it's all good, sometimes you can't read files with (filesize mod 3 == 0). very weird issues like that)... 'plain' reiserfs would be a better option

.
(no trolling intended or anything, i'm all for alpha and beta software myself, just that reiser4 really seems like an unpredictable beast :/)

kernelOfTruth · Post by **kernelOfTruth** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:17 pm

mdeininger wrote:sounds good, but i'd strongly advise against reiser4. lots of people seem to have fairly unpredictable issues that change around from kernel to kernel (sometimes it's all good, sometimes you can't read files with (filesize mod 3 == 0). very weird issues like that)... 'plain' reiserfs would be a better option .
(no trolling intended or anything, i'm all for alpha and beta software myself, just that reiser4 really seems like an unpredictable beast :/)

hey, it's just an option

besides that in which context do you get (filesize mod 3 == 0) ?

reiser4 really wreaks havoc for me - but in only one case if I scan larger parts of files with bitdefender-console
don't know if this was fixed with official reiser4 2.6.22-patch or in mm, though

cheater1034 · Post by **cheater1034** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:16 am

mdeininger wrote:sounds good, but i'd strongly advise against reiser4. lots of people seem to have fairly unpredictable issues that change around from kernel to kernel (sometimes it's all good, sometimes you can't read files with (filesize mod 3 == 0). very weird issues like that)... 'plain' reiserfs would be a better option .
(no trolling intended or anything, i'm all for alpha and beta software myself, just that reiser4 really seems like an unpredictable beast :/)

Yeah, I haven't used reiser4 in awhile, in fact today I just got a brand new gentoo install and used reiserfs.

reiser4 when I last used it (2.6.18), was by far the best I've ever used. Ext4 is extremely unstable though and I am staying as far away from it as possible.

When it all comes down to it though, thoffmeyer will decide what FS is default into the guide, and the user will decide what FS they want to use.
-----

Also, just thought I'd address this now b/c someone will ask for it. If you want pkgcore or paludis (I think pkgcore is 10x better because it's nearly identical to portage). I've used both, both are extremely easy installs and both are automatic installs (emerge pkgcore or emerge paludis and run the script).

Neither of these will be used in the guide, they're both easy installs and you can use one if you like (pkgcore is pretty nice though, very easy to use and same configs and everything as portage - it can also run side by side with portage)

kernelOfTruth · Post by **kernelOfTruth** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:27 am

Neither of these will be used in the guide, they're both easy installs and you can use one if you like (pkgcore is pretty nice though, very easy to use and same configs and everything as portage - it can also run side by side with portage)

looks nice

I hope it's fast enough on this poor ol' laptop, I'll give it a try tomorrow,

so why not include both as alternatives? paludis & pkgcore ?

cheater1034 · Post by **cheater1034** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:58 am

kernelOfTruth wrote:
Neither of these will be used in the guide, they're both easy installs and you can use one if you like (pkgcore is pretty nice though, very easy to use and same configs and everything as portage - it can also run side by side with portage)
looks nice

I hope it's fast enough on this poor ol' laptop, I'll give it a try tomorrow,

so why not include both as alternatives? paludis & pkgcore ?

Because both are sooo easy to install I don't think it's necessary to be documented, and me personally don't care for either one (not because they're bad). I use portage because it's the most complete of all 3, and even though it's not BAM like a c++ alternative, it's not a problem for me.

I'm leaving that one up to the user, they can install either one, they both do the same thing as portage, pkgcore doesn't need any reconfiguring like paludis does though, but either way it's such an easy install and you can implement it any time and uninstall it any time.

seren · Post by **seren** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:29 am

I think ext3 tuned with journal_data_writeback is best bet. and for a bleeding edge file system we should use xfs. no insane ldflags or cflags keep it conservative.

predatorfreak · Post by **predatorfreak** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:34 am

cheater1034 wrote:Also, just thought I'd address this now b/c someone will ask for it. If you want pkgcore or paludis (I think pkgcore is 10x better because it's nearly identical to portage). I've used both, both are extremely easy installs and both are automatic installs (emerge pkgcore or emerge paludis and run the script).

Wouldn't that make pkgcore WORSE? If it was nearly identical to portage it would have alot of the same pitfalls. Note that I'm not saying that pkgcore is terrible (although I use paludis on my Gentoo installations), I'm just trying to get what you mean by "Since they're nearly identical it has to be better".

Also, I don't think SD is utterly superior to CFS anymore, in the early stages of CFS development, it definitely was, but CFS is VERY mature now and is generally equal to or better than SD, in my usage I can't tell the difference really.

seren wrote:I think ext3 tined with journal_data_witeback is best bet. and for a bleeding edge file system we should use xfs. no insane ldflags or cflags keep it conservative.

I don't think XFS could be considered "bleeding edge" by any standards, it's fairly mature and stable now. I agree about no insane CFLAGS or LDFLAGS, however I would recommend suggesting prelink as part of the standard install.

micr0c0sm · Post by **micr0c0sm** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:55 am

The option to install pkgcore / paludis should be in the guide. (with a little blurb on replacing 'emerge foo -p' with 'paludis -i foo -p' or whatever pkgcore uses).

ext4 should be kept in no-sources and supported by the guide because it will replace ext3 before reiser4 will hit mainline. I switched from reiser4 to ext4 and noticed 2 things: 1 - very consistent and fast file access that didn't slow down other processes (big issue with r4 for me) and 2 - /usr/portage doubled in size (at least it didnt triple like with ext3...). I have not once had to repair the ext4 partition (fsck has found no issues yet) but you have to make sure to mask >e2fsprogs-1.39-r1).

It would be nice to have a quick install guide like the official gentoo quick install.

The way I see the conrad projects as a viable alternative install guide is NOT to using bleeding edge ldflags and cflags but to offer *the best information* on most of the important gentoo choices, for example:
kernel - gentoo-sources, no-sources
root filesystem - ext3, ext4, reiser4, xfs
package manager - portage, paludis, pkgcore
init system - sysv, einit, init-ng, upstart, runit
config system - etc-update, cfg-update

In this case, the *best* information constitutes simple recommendations followed by links to the official projects. For example:

Init System:
How fast your computer boots and how you manage services on your machine are very important.

Options: (note the * is for our default recommendation )
* SysVinit - the default for gentoo. If you are on a desktop or rarely reboot / change services this is a good system to use.
recommended settings: enable parallel startup in /etc/rc.conf

Upstart - developed for Ubuntu but suitable for any distro, Upstart is event based meaning things like plugging in an ac-adapter or network cable can trigger services to start or stop. Very useful for a laptop or any machine needing to change its 'role'.
recommended settings: stick with the defaults for now

I hope you catch my drift.

cheater1034 · Post by **cheater1034** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:20 pm

predatorfreak wrote:
cheater1034 wrote:Also, just thought I'd address this now b/c someone will ask for it. If you want pkgcore or paludis (I think pkgcore is 10x better because it's nearly identical to portage). I've used both, both are extremely easy installs and both are automatic installs (emerge pkgcore or emerge paludis and run the script).
Wouldn't that make pkgcore WORSE? If it was nearly identical to portage it would have alot of the same pitfalls. Note that I'm not saying that pkgcore is terrible (although I use paludis on my Gentoo installations), I'm just trying to get what you mean by "Since they're nearly identical it has to be better".

Well, I LOVE the portage interface and commands, partly because I'm so used to it, but I think it's absolutely perfect aside from the fact it's written in python.

pkgcore is a similar interface to portage (it makes a little more sense than portage actually with defining sets and so forth), runs off of the same configs, but it's written in C++, meaning when I hit emerge gcc, it's BAM. Me personally I love the portage interface with emerge and what not - that's why I like pkgcore more. Though I don't use either one right now.

Also, I don't think SD is utterly superior to CFS anymore, in the early stages of CFS development, it definitely was, but CFS is VERY mature now and is generally equal to or better than SD, in my usage I can't tell the difference really.

Yeah, I haven't used them in awhile, and I know SD was instantly replaced by ingo, but I might as well use con's patches for 1 release while they're still there. Though I'm doubting I'll use SD now because it's deprecated.

seren wrote:I think ext3 tined with journal_data_witeback is best bet. and for a bleeding edge file system we should use xfs. no insane ldflags or cflags keep it conservative.
I don't think XFS could be considered "bleeding edge" by any standards, it's fairly mature and stable now. I agree about no insane CFLAGS or LDFLAGS, however I would recommend suggesting prelink as part of the standard install.

Prelink will be part of the standard install with hashstyle, glibc 2.6 and gcc 4.2.1 (I think, not final)

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micr0c0sm, yep, I will implement information if hoffy doesn't.

Master Chef · Post by **Master Chef** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:47 am

thoffmeyer wrote:Tell me your wishes/features/sex you'd want in the guide, srsly people, tell me what YOU want. Kthnx.

I'd say Reiser4 over Ext4. Last no-kernel I used with R4 worked awesome and kept up. Although I'm a bit skeptical since this install without a no-kernel

Paludis maybe? I haven't gotten around to installing any portage alternatives, mainly because I'm afraid of doing it after I've installed half my system.

eINIT should be one of the first things installed on Gentoo and configure as you go along installing all your other services. It reduces boot time beyond parallel init scripts and I think it's undoubtedly the right way forward. Although I'm wondering if eINIT will need another guide on it's own.

The more patched toolchain as usual

.

cheater1034 · Post by **cheater1034** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:01 pm

Master Chef wrote:
thoffmeyer wrote:Tell me your wishes/features/sex you'd want in the guide, srsly people, tell me what YOU want. Kthnx.
I'd say Reiser4 over Ext4. Last no-kernel I used with R4 worked awesome and kept up. Although I'm a bit skeptical since this install without a no-kernel

NO This install will have no-sources!!!
Thoffmeyer just reinstalled gentoo for me with ReiserFS (I have no idea if this will be the default), but I'm making 2.6.22-no1! And it will be sweet and more stable because there is no -mm for 2.6.22, so I can only nitpick some things.

The only thing I won't let hoffy do is use another kernel besides -no

thoffmeyer · Post by **thoffmeyer** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:02 pm

Ok, I think I have a few features, the new guide, which im starting working on today, will include, no-sources(of course, well it was that or either I get beat to death with a sock full or quaters), no insane ldflags or cflags, because well.. thats dumb, I want to keep it bleeding edge, but yet sane, don't know of the filesystem yet.. I will have einit and paludis as a post-install option. gcc 4.2 + glibc 2.6 of course. And that's all for now.

seren · Post by **seren** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:33 pm

i think you should reconsider gcc 4.2.0 and gcc 2.6 , at least wait for 2.6 to become mature, and gcc 4.2.1 is out with a lot of fixes over 4.2.0.

Telexen · Post by **Telexen** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:52 am

I think it's wise to stay away from gcc 4.2.0 as well. I've tried to run it several times on x86 and amd64 ... multiple problems on both. I've been waiting for an ebuild for 4.2.1 just to see if a few of the problems I had are fixed and for optimizations.

longhorn49 · Post by **longhorn49** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:57 am

I find GCC 4.2 stable as long as you upgrade to 2.17.50 binutils.

kernelOfTruth · Post by **kernelOfTruth** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:18 am

Telexen wrote:I think it's wise to stay away from gcc 4.2.0 as well. I've tried to run it several times on x86 and amd64 ... multiple problems on both. I've been waiting for an ebuild for 4.2.1 just to see if a few of the problems I had are fixed and for optimizations.

gcc overlay (kudos to seren)

cheater1034 · Post by **cheater1034** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:30 pm

kernelOfTruth wrote:
Telexen wrote:I think it's wise to stay away from gcc 4.2.0 as well. I've tried to run it several times on x86 and amd64 ... multiple problems on both. I've been waiting for an ebuild for 4.2.1 just to see if a few of the problems I had are fixed and for optimizations.
gcc overlay (kudos to seren)

I'm using his overlay, no problems at all with my gentoo

kernelOfTruth · Post by **kernelOfTruth** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:40 pm

cheater1034 wrote:
kernelOfTruth wrote:
Telexen wrote:I think it's wise to stay away from gcc 4.2.0 as well. I've tried to run it several times on x86 and amd64 ... multiple problems on both. I've been waiting for an ebuild for 4.2.1 just to see if a few of the problems I had are fixed and for optimizations.
gcc overlay (kudos to seren)
I'm using his overlay, no problems at all with my gentoo

yeah, it's working great here, too

just modified for additional hardened-support ...

ah, one thing:

you probably should reconsider (hope that's the right term) using gcc-4.2* since it breaks hald, dbus, and such stuff (as far as I know); I'm emerging my system from scratch with hardened gcc-4.2.1 / gcc-4.1.2-r2 I'll let you know if I'm at that point and it should work again

cheater1034 · Post by **cheater1034** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:09 pm

Hey, People, go to #conrad on irc.freenode, Talk there, IRC is good!

Telexen · Post by **Telexen** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:05 am

kernelOfTruth wrote:
Telexen wrote:I think it's wise to stay away from gcc 4.2.0 as well. I've tried to run it several times on x86 and amd64 ... multiple problems on both. I've been waiting for an ebuild for 4.2.1 just to see if a few of the problems I had are fixed and for optimizations.
gcc overlay (kudos to seren)

please see my post in the gcc 4.2.0 thread

thoffmeyer · Post by **thoffmeyer** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:41 am

Ok, I got some updates on the guide, the development has started today...

Master Chef · Post by **Master Chef** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:42 am

Cheater!

Last time, in your kernel, you used a SVN version of linux-phc. Unfortunately undervolting plain didn't work (known bug with the linux-phc devs, not your problem). But I say this because I totally forgot to complain back then, and realize that you might use the same patchset (their last release was quite a while ago).

I'm holding off rebuilding my system for this guide, because I trust the pieces you build Gentoo with more than Gentoo's.

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