NDISWRAPPER on the livecd

[brainiac_ghost]

seeing as all bugs about this get closed, i am making a poll about whether you think ndiswrapper should be on the livecd, i will make this fair, listing points for and against:
for:

• it is better to give SOME chance to establish wireless
  connection (through floppy or whatever) than NO chance. Program binary + module
  is about 210 KB large. When LiveCD said A with wireless, B should also be said
  with drivers. (from the bug report)

• only a 200k binary, that needs to be compiled for a specific kernel

• would help lots of people, and you don't need to use it if you don't want it

• not difficult to add

• can't install ndiswrapper from networkless install
  against:
  • networkless install
  • need to download drivers onto a USB stick anyway, so you may as well stick ndiswrapper on the usb stick too

[amne]

The reasons for not adding ndiswrapper are described quite clearly in Bug 69707.

Out of interest:
1) Why would someone buy something that works with ndsiwrapper only?
2) Assuming you have such a device, sure you may want to use it once Gentoo is set up. But why not simply use good old wired ethernet for installing? Works out of the box, puts no extra work on Releng, no extra playing around with docache, change live cds etc.

[brainiac_ghost]

well, i got a wlan card with GPL drivers, but they aren't on the livecd either, and you don't have to mess around with docache, floppy or usb stick, and it isn't that much extra strain, it is adding one word to a specfile

[amne]

it is adding one word to a specfile

I think adding one word may not be enough, people expect stuff that is on the live cd to be working, properly tested and supported.

You still haven't answered my question - why not simply use wired ethernet for the install?

[aidanjt]

Why not simpily use wired ethernet always.. wireless makes token ring look good.

[brainiac_ghost]

my pc is in a totally different room, i can't move it (not enough room in the room that the router is), and it is just hassle and annoyence to get wires around my house

[aidanjt]

is it that hard to drill a hole in the roof and feed a cable through?

[brainiac_ghost]

is it that hard to drill a hole in the roof and feed a cable through?

when you have a dad like mine, yes

[NeddySeagoon]

brainiac_ghost,

You can add ndiswrapper to a networkless install the same way as you add the XP drivers it needs for your hardware.
Maybe there is an argument for putting the following steps in the manual, if they are not there already.

1. Do networkless install
2. emerge ndiswrapper -pf
Make a list of the URLs it spits out

Code: Select all

emerge ndiswrapper -pf > URL_list.txt

may work
3. fetch the files on another PC
4. Using sneakernet, copy them to /usr/portage/distfiles
5. emerge ndiswrapper
6. Follow the wireless set up guide.

After you have done it, maybe you could write a nice howto ?

[Bad Penguin]

seeing as all bugs about this get closed, i am making a poll about whether you think ndiswrapper should be on the livecd, i will make this fair, listing points for and against:

I would like very much for it to be in there, my laptop uses a wireless pcmcia card that can only function with ndiswrapper drivers. The onboard card is an eepro100 that does not work with any of the install cds, for some reason the e100 driver won't work, which is loaded by udev. After it loads I cannot unload it and get the eepro100 module loaded, which does work. So using the install cd via a hard wire is not really an option for me. I have experienced the same problem with the eepro100 on servers also.

Sadly, from the looks of the responses to bug 69707, it does not really matter what you, I, or 10,000 other users want, it is not going to happen because the developer doesn't want it to. The bug in this case, in my opinion, is the developer, not ndiswrapper.

[Raftysworld]

Ugh...

The reasons for not adding ndiswrapper are described quite clearly in Bug 69707.

Out of interest:
1) Why would someone buy something that works with ndsiwrapper only?
2) Assuming you have such a device, sure you may want to use it once Gentoo is set up. But why not simply use good old wired ethernet for installing? Works out of the box, puts no extra work on Releng, no extra playing around with docache, change live cds etc.

1) Because it was purchased prior to my decision to install Linux. I apologize that I wasn't born with the knowledge of hardware that works flawless on Linux. (I have an ATI card too)
2) Because my computer is in my room, my router is too far away, and drilling holes in my wall just to plug in a damn ethernet cable is ridiculous. I really really would like to see ndiswrapper on the CDs.

Or at least bcm43xx

EDIT: I realize the licensing issues prevent drivers from being placed on the CD, but I and probably many others have a folder with my drivers on my windows harddrive, which I can very easily mount to load the drivers. It saves a lot of hassle to be able to do this from the livecd. Knoppix understands.

[Shadow Skill]

I dont see why including ndiswrapper would be any real problem. Ndiswrapper itself will probably not need much if any testing and retrieving functioning windows drivers for use with Ndiswrapper is something people using Ndiswrapper are probably aware of. If not a quick blurb in the install guide should be more than sufficient.

[aidanjt]

2) Because my computer is in my room, my router is too far away, and drilling holes in my wall just to plug in a damn ethernet cable is ridiculous. I really really would like to see ndiswrapper on the CDs.

It's not ridiculous at all, actually if you do a good job of it, as in installing flush RJ-45 sockets it adds communication options for a building and nudges the price up a tad, ethernet leaves wireless in the dark ages in terms of networking. It's scaleable, has vastly higher performance, much less subceptable to interference, and is impervious to drive-by-snooping.

[pilla]

Why don't you use the ethernet just to get it to the point that you can install ndiswrapper? It shouldn't be a big deal to have your notebook in another room for a day or so. If you can't do it, please thing two times before asking developers to expend time on it if you can't waste yours.

It's ok to have devices that can only work with proprietary drivers, but you cannot blame Gentoo for not having support out of the livecd for it. Blame the maufacturer that does not ship a decent driver or at least something that we can put in the livecd without problems with licenses.

[slonocode]

I've never used ndiswrapper. Is it common for livecd's to exlcude it?

[HydroSan]

What I want to know is why are all the devs so defensive about adding ndiswrapper to the LiveCD.

It doesn't make any sense. Seriously. Some hardware ISN'T SUPPORTED BY LINUX. Get the fuck over it. Some are supported through ndiswrapper. Are you going to cut people who don't have the cash to "buy the proper hardware" out, simply because you don't feel as though ndiswrapper is "necessary"?

Hell, I don't even use wireless and I think ndiswrapper would be good to have on a LiveCD.

EDIT: I know how ndiswrapper works. I know shipping the binary drivers would be impossible. But at the very least having the ability to USE binary drivers would be good.

[pilla]

What I want to know is why are all the devs so defensive about adding ndiswrapper to the LiveCD.

Maybe because they don't have hardware or time to properly test it, or because they don't want to give you free support out of the box for creepy hardware. Both are OK IMO, as Gentoo is free software and developed by voluntary work.

[slycordinator]

If you absolutely need ndiswrapper, it's supported in knoppix (since version 3.7 I believe).

Though I'm not sure if it's in knoppix64.

[Shadow Skill]

Oh just put the damned thing on the cd or dvd and say this method is not actually supported instead of advocating that people be completely screwed if you can't find a developer or other volunteer to test it. [which I find very hard to believe even for gentoo.] I can think of situations where one has proximity to the router or modem but A the nic is not detected by the livecd and B there simply are not enough free cables around, or C the onboard nic/modem is shot for one reason or another. Don't say something like that does not happen because I have had nic cards completely die on me, I also managed to somehow break my pcmcia slot thereby rendering wireless connectivity impossible on my current laptop. [Either my brother or myself unknowingly forced the wireless card too far into the port thereby splitting the connector in half.]

While Knoppix is also an idea I really have found it to be somewhat finiky about whether it wanted to work properly or not.

If you setup your wireless properly no one is going to be able to spy on you from across the street so that is not much of a point.

What could be sooo creepy about a netgear wireless card?

While I don't personally need this thing to actually get Gentoo or any other system installed the idea of being able to setup the wireless connectivity during the installation process before I actually get to the installing part is definetly appealing since it would allow me to liberate the cable I would normally use for such things plug it into my playstation and play a game or two while I wait for the system to finish building with the new model I want to get a month or so from now.

To the original poster perhaps you could create a custom live cd with ndiswrapper on it so as to avoid this sort of annoyance in the future until such time as the Gentoo developers decide to include this on the live cd.

[Bad Penguin]

Why don't you use the ethernet just to get it to the point that you can install ndiswrapper? It shouldn't be a big deal to have your notebook in another room for a day or so. If you can't do it, please thing two times before asking developers to expend time on it if you can't waste yours.

It's ok to have devices that can only work with proprietary drivers, but you cannot blame Gentoo for not having support out of the livecd for it. Blame the maufacturer that does not ship a decent driver or at least something that we can put in the livecd without problems with licenses.

It is not just initial installs I need it for, I would primarily like to use it in rescue/upgrade/backup situations. My wife's workstation is upstairs, far away from where any cables can be run

The argument about proprietary drivers is bunk, nvidia drivers are on it.

[brainiac_ghost]

hell, i would test it if given the chance, it isn't too difficult to do either, just add ndiswrapper to the specfile, and in the handbook say that it is not supported

[ydleiF]

I'm against it for the simple reason that I want manufacturers to support linux directly, properly, with drivers, instead of being able to use the excuse "use windows drivers with ndiswrapper". The more linux distros support ndiswrapper, the less of a reason manufacturers have to support Linux.

Thanks for setting the poll up.

[Bad Penguin]

I'm against it for the simple reason that I want manufacturers to support linux directly, properly, with drivers, instead of being able to use the excuse "use windows drivers with ndiswrapper". The more linux distros support ndiswrapper, the less of a reason manufacturers have to support Linux.

That sounds great, I agree completely. But meanwhile, back in the real world....

When I bought my wireless cards (2 for workstations, 1 for laptop), the only store available to me didn't happen to consult with the hardware compatibility list for linux before ordering from their vendors. Not to mention the fact that most wireless cards are rebranded and it is damn near impossible to figure out which chipset they use while still in the box. Almost all laptops come with wireless nowdays, probably half of them won't happen to have chipsets that work natively. In this case which is better, allow them to use ndiswrapper, or punish them because their vendor won't create/open up their drivers?

[ydleiF]

I think it is very black and white. Free software is something I am dedicated to, and this falls clearly within that realm. You make good points, I have been in the same situation. Which is why I ask about their return policy, and deal with it accordingly. Unfortunately this is part of using Linux these days, at times.

Getting proper Linux support is far more important to me than any of the other factors, you can come up with scenarios all day. I will not endorse supporting, directly or indirectly, manufacturers who want to pretend Linux users do not exist. Full stop.

[amne]

Folks, it's not like we are discussing if Gentoo should support ndiswrapper in general, it's just about the live-CD. If you want to install Gentoo on a system that has a device requiring ndiswrapper you can
a) install using hard-wired ethernet, even if you have to relocate your notebook to another room for 2 hours or so. As soon you're done with the install you can emerge ndiswrapper and you are done.
b) use any other live CD that supports ndiswrapper.
c) build your own live CD with catalyst.

The releng appearently has no interest in supporting ndiswrapper on the live CDs for some reasons as license issues and/or not willing to add another package that breaks stuff and needs testing while there are plenty of alternatives putting no extra work on Releng that work quite well, too.