Gentoo was hated by many people????

[superfanny]

Hi,

I am Gnome user and following Gnome user mailing list. And I am Gentoo new user. Is it true that many people hate Gentoo? Somebody posted this:

Code: Select all

Hello.

I'm a gnome user who also is knowedge-able when it comes to code (I
work as a developer) and may want to cooperate in the future. I've
been into the gnome irc network for a year or so, where I talked with
friendly people about gnome stuff.
Yesterday, while dscussing things in #gimp I mentioned Gentoo, what
happened next is surrealist, to qualify it as something.
I ended up disrespectful insulted then glined by Yosh, a network
operator. The whole log is attached. In my opinion, and in the opinion
of the people, logs in hand, I've talked about the issue, this isn't
the behaviour one could expect from a good samaritan.
For me it won't be a problem, I'll just get a different IP with dhcp,
a different nick, usermask, etc. and forget about it, but here I leave
this, because something must be done for those things not to be
repeated again. Not in Gnome.

Here is the log of the chat dialog:
This is an incident I've had in irc.gnome.org in the beggining of the 5th November 2004. Clock is GMT+1.
00:55:13 -!- Topic for #gimp: ftp.gimp.org/pub/gimp/v2.2/testing/
00:55:13 -!- Topic set by neo [] [Mon Nov 1 02:17:31 2004]
00:55:14 [Users #gimp]
00:55:14 [@Burrito] [@rambokid] [ Dorito ] [ Kevin ] [ Parn ] [ T`|Heli ]
00:55:14 [@carol ] [@tigert ] [ drc ] [ lanzetot] [ plasma ] [ tazmaniac]
00:55:14 [@cgo ] [@yosh ] [ edge ] [ Lightkey] [ purple_cow] [ TB-Master]
00:55:14 [@CyBeR ] [ akk ] [ federico] [ maswan ] [ raphael ] [ Tommer ]
00:55:14 [@jimmac ] [ anthill ] [ grumbel ] [ mmc ] [ sam_ ] [ uzi ]
00:55:14 [@jlbec ] [ BaT ] [ hackeron] [ mukund ] [ schumaml ] [ vdm ]
00:55:14 [@msw ] [ beasty ] [ jgraham ] [ neopoop ] [ scizzo ] [ vidarino ]
00:55:14 [@neo ] [ bill ] [ jooke ] [ oGALAXYo] [ sjburges ]
00:55:14 [@nomis ] [ brent ] [ keturn ] [ pakrat ] [ sk1p_ ]
00:55:14 -!- Irssi: #gimp: Total of 52 nicks [12 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 40 normal]
00:55:14 -!- Channel #gimp created Sun Apr 4 05:25:58 1999
00:55:15 -!- Irssi: Join to #gimp was synced in 2 secs
00:55:15 < Parn> hi
00:55:24 < Parn> where does gimp-2.1 store its cache?
00:55:43 < Parn> it used lots and lots of HD till disk was full
00:55:48 < Parn> then I killed it
00:55:55 < Parn> and the disk is still full...
00:56:02 < Parn> I wonder where should I go delete the stuff
00:57:46 < Parn> hm
00:57:49 < Parn> I think I found it
01:06:19 <@ carol> everything goes into .gimp-2.n/ unless you tell it differently
01:06:19 < scizzo> time to sleep
01:06:19 < scizzo> night GIMPers
01:06:19 <@ carol> natti scizzo
01:07:10 -!- Waldgichtel [~toni@pD9E41F0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #gimp
01:07:24 < Parn> I'm working with big images and little HD
01:07:38 <@ carol> i used to do that
01:07:41 <@ neo> what about RAM?
01:07:44 < Parn> 768mb
01:08:03 <@neo> Parn: so what did you set for the tile-cache size then?
01:08:11 < Parn> 256
01:08:17 < Parn> should I set it bigger?
01:08:22 <@ neo> with 768MB you should probably double that
01:08:29 < Parn> ok, I'll double that
01:08:48 <@ neo> unless you don't have any swap space at all
01:08:55 < Parn> 1gb
01:08:59 < Parn> of swap
01:09:10 <@ neo> go for 512MB tile cache then or even more
01:09:17 < Parn> ok
01:09:26 <@ neo> you can use the OS swap instead of GIMP using your harddrive
01:10:57 -!- pritlove [~tim@port-212-202-200-48.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #gimp
01:12:17 * Parn waits for the longest autocrop ever
01:15:58 -!- TB-Master [~toni@pD953AF40.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds]
01:16:03 < Parn> well
01:16:05 < Parn> question
01:16:10 < Parn> I had 2GB of free HD
01:16:12 < Parn> opened a big image
01:16:20 < Parn> then had like 1.2
01:16:27 < Parn> did this autocrop
01:16:28 <@ neo> define big image
01:16:32 < Parn> and now the image is smaller
01:16:39 < Parn> (which is obvious)
01:17:03 < Parn> and I cannot undo (I disabled undo in the settings)
01:17:12 < Parn> but the HD space lowered to 576mb
01:17:22 < Parn> 15000x15000 RGB, neo
01:17:32 -!- pritlove [~tim@port-212-202-200-48.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #gimp []
01:17:38 < Parn> the question is
01:18:09 <@ neo> uhm, that's like a 2GB image
01:18:13 < Parn> why did the HD space lower from 1.2 to 576mb if I autocropped the image (now it's smaller!) and I cannot undo it, either (disabled undo)?
01:18:34 <@ neo> how did you disable undo ?
01:19:15 < Parn> by setting the "minimum undo levels" to 0
01:19:29 < Parn> in the "environment" (or something like that) preferences thing
01:19:37 <@ neo> what about the undo memory size?
01:19:42 < Parn> 4mb, neo
01:19:48 < Parn> which is the default
01:20:04 < Parn> and if I go to the undo menu, it's ghosted (no undo possible, of the autocrop I just did)
01:20:32 <@carol> Parn: touch the image and then check the undo
01:20:55 < Parn> carol: why?
01:21:00 <@ neo> that should work
01:21:08 < Parn> ... work?
01:21:14 <@ carol> because the undo might be "unghosted" then
01:21:17 <@ neo> we tested zero undo-levels
01:21:58 <@ neo> the point is probably that since you cropped, you now have a hole in your swap file
01:22:40 <@ neo> gimp can only make the swap file smaller if there's free space at the end
01:23:02 <@ neo> it won't defragment the swap file
01:23:07 <@ carol> well, this new gimp has this quality of not showing undo without some other activity first
01:23:19 <@carol> Parn: was it enabled?
01:23:29 <@ neo> carol: stop talking bullshit all day long, will you
01:23:45 <@ carol> neo: when i start i will be sure to stop soon
01:23:46 < Parn> wait... doing some heavy IO right now
01:24:06 <@ carol> neo: you think i make this stuff up?
01:24:24 <@ neo> no, I think you are confusing things
01:24:54 <@ carol> you should keep thinking about writing software and stop thinking about what i should and should not do
01:25:19 <@ carol> i have had to touch the image to enable undo
01:25:51 <@ neo> you shouldn't try to give smart answers all the time since most often it makes you look really dumb
01:25:59 < Parn> damn... this is so crazy
01:26:09 < Parn> editing such a big image... damn
01:26:12 <@carol> i asked that Parn try something
01:26:29 < Parn> did the "touch the image" thing, carol, neo
01:26:31 <@carol> Parn: did touching the image enable undo?
01:26:41 < Parn> carol: atm, it's doing heavy IO
01:26:47 < Parn> carol: accessing the HD like crazy
01:26:51 < Parn> swapping in and out...
01:26:58 <@ neo> he disabled undo, remember?
01:27:08 < Parn> once it ends, I'll tell you, carol
01:27:12 <@ neo> no way to enable it w/o changing that prefs value
01:27:15 < Parn> neo: I didn't disable it completelly
01:27:20 <@ carol> neo: he has not had time to do this
01:27:26 <@ neo> well, you allowed for 4 MB
01:27:33 < Parn> neo: I just set "minimum undo levels" to 0
01:27:49 < Parn> neo: and left the "undo size" or whatrever its called to default value (4mb, IIRC)
01:27:52 <@ neo> so if you now touched the image that might give you a change that is less than 4MB and it will enable undo
01:28:05 <@ neo> but that doesn't anything about the problem you have
01:28:11 < Parn> neo: yes, there's why I decided to go and touch the image.
01:28:22 <@ neo> well, touch it
01:28:37 <@ neo> that is not going to prove anything
01:28:44 < Parn> cannot undo... game over
01:28:52 < Parn> time to start again, I guess
01:29:06 -!- wepy [~wepy@68.36.203.176] has joined #gimp
01:29:21 < wepy> is there any way to switch between XIM input servers in Gtk apps like Gimp?
01:29:41 < wepy> like if i want to type korean with the nabi xim server, then chinese with chinput..
01:30:02 < Parn> I think I'll go the "step, save image, exit, open GIMP again" way
01:30:03 <@ neo> wepy: there's a right-click menu in all text entries
01:30:20 <@neo> Parn: that would be a waste of time
01:30:21 < Parn> I just hope it doesn't "poof" before I can save.
01:30:28 -!- Waldgichtel [~toni@pD9E41F0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [!*so, Stromsparen muss auch mal sein*! | #vb-6 -> http://forum.vb-6.de | #digicam im euirc <<
alles über digital fotografie. |]
01:30:43 <@neo> Parn: you did everything right, just don't worry about the disk space
01:30:51 < Parn> neo: I just have to do 3 autocrops of an image, then index it, then save it as something sane unlike PNG.
01:30:56 < Parn> 01:30:43 <@neo> Parn: you did everything right, just don't worry about the disk space
01:30:57 < Parn> no
01:31:09 < Parn> the HD space zeroed already twice
01:31:11 < Parn> in my experiments
01:31:22 < wepy> neo: but the right click menu only has 1 line for X input method
01:31:27 <@neo> Parn: use more tile-cache then
01:31:30 < Parn> and then, after deleting some files to make room, all I could do was kill gimp
01:31:39 < Parn> I'm using 512mb now
01:31:45 < wepy> neo: i am running several X input servers.. but gtk apps only use 1 at a time..?
01:31:49 < Parn> I can't put more or my system will explode
01:31:50 <@ neo> wepy: your gtk+ installation is broken then
01:31:53 <@nomis> Parn: maybe index the image before cropping it.
01:32:17 < Parn> nomis: that would be a nice idea, too
01:32:23 -!- federico [~federico@dsl-200-78-46-214.prod-infinitum.com.mx] has quit [Leaving]
01:32:24 <@ neo> I have like a dozen input methods to choose from
01:32:30 <@ neo> w/o running a single XIM server
01:32:30 < wepy> neo: is there a configuration option to allow switching between XIM's on the fly?
01:32:42 < wepy> neo: i have many options also
01:32:47 <@ neo> wepy: perhaps ask in gtk+?
01:32:51 < wepy> neo: but most of those are gtk input modules
01:32:54 <@ neo> wepy: definitely not a gimp question
01:32:59 < wepy> ok
01:33:08 < wepy> thanks
01:33:09 -!- wepy [~wepy@68.36.203.176] has left #gimp []
01:34:07 < Parn> neo: gtk im modules are nice... in gtk apps
01:34:15 < Parn> XIM is a general solution, or tries to
01:34:24 < Parn> sad thing isn't usable for me... yet
01:34:39 <@ neo> well, stick with gtk+ apps then
01:34:41 < Parn> I need to swap between japanese and occidental (with accents and stuff) input
01:34:53 < Parn> neo: There are non gtk2 stuff I use and like
01:35:07 < Parn> starting from xterm (in utf8 mode)
01:35:14 <@ neo> I think all the apps I frequently use, use gtk+
01:35:16 < Parn> which is where I pass most of the time.
01:35:47 <@ neo> there's gnome-terminal which I admit is slow but it offers the choice of input methods
01:36:18 < Parn> and yeah, as you said, it's slow
01:36:32 < Parn> not just slow, but I'd say it's unusable
01:36:41 < Parn> at least I tried it... and I couldn't bear with it
01:37:06 <@ neo> hmm, I'm using it a lot
01:37:17 <@ neo> wouldn
01:37:19 < Parn> that's on a 600MHz athlon, Gentoo, gcc 3.4.2, -finsame-optimizations
01:37:28 < Parn> *insamHne
01:37:41 <@ neo> well, if you are using insane compiler optimizations you are a fool
01:38:29 < Parn> I use -O3 -fomit-frame-pointer -ftracer and something more
01:38:54 <@ neo> typical gentoo user
01:38:57 < Parn> isn't that insane
01:38:59 < Parn> and thanks to this, my system flies as long as I don't run gnome-terminal
01:39:15 < Parn> well, I used to use Debian
01:39:28 < Parn> had it set up apropiatelly and all
01:39:34 < Parn> and things were slow
01:39:44 <@ neo> and as long as the apps don't crash because of your insane optimizations that don't yield more than a percent or two perhaps
01:39:58 < Parn> here, in Gentoo, thinks are quite faster
01:40:32 < schumaml> gentoo isbased on belief
01:40:32 <@ neo> apps crash faster, that's all
01:40:46 <@ neo> anyway, should go get some sleep now
01:40:49 -!- neo [~neo@pD9E7F173.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client exiting]
01:40:53 < Parn> schumaml, neo: you're just plain wrong
01:41:23 < Parn> it's like you're denying the usefulness of the work of gcc developers
01:41:52 < Parn> here, I've used gentoo for two years already
01:42:01 < Parn> and I've had my time to make my benchmarks and stuff
01:42:39 < Parn> stuff as simple as startup times, optimizing for athlon vs for 386, using different compilers, etc
01:42:46 < Parn> differences are there, and they're significant
01:43:19 < Parn> If I had a very fast machine, maybe I wouldn't care so much because my system would be fast anyways, schumaml
01:43:49 < Parn> but then, I'd still use Gentoo
01:44:04 < Parn> Portage kicks ass
01:44:37 < Parn> the level of control I do have; I can do stuff my way
01:45:04 < Parn> and yeah, many arge about compile times
01:45:18 < Parn> but there's why nice levels are for
01:46:17 < Parn> why/what
01:47:47 <@yosh> Parn: it's mostly in your head
01:47:57 <@ yosh> your benchmarks don't mean squat
01:48:52 <@ yosh> higher optimization levels even hurt in sometimes, since it'll blow your icache
01:48:57 < Parn> I know, yosh
01:49:15 <@ yosh> well, so far you sound like a typical raving fool gentoo user
01:49:24 < Parn> optimization stuff sometimes tends to make code bigger
01:49:37 < Parn> and so it makes cpu cache "faults" more likely
01:49:44 < Parn> and sometimes backfires
01:50:07 < Parn> I don't use flags which generate big as hell code because of that
01:50:25 < Parn> but, yosh, gentoo isn't just about optimization
01:50:51 <@ yosh> portage doesn't really gain you much over apt-get source
01:51:01 < Parn> I don't use gentoo just because it builds everything with my selected gcc flags.
01:51:04 <@ yosh> people only tweak a handful of apps, if that, not 100% of the system
01:51:15 <@ yosh> yeah, you use gentoo because you think it makes you cool
01:51:24 < Parn> actually, it does, since I've tried dpkg-build or whatever it's called
01:51:30 < Parn> before trying gentoo
01:51:50 <@ yosh> see, you don't even know what it is
01:51:53 <@ yosh> you didn't try it
01:51:55 < Parn> I did
01:51:58 <@ yosh> you're a fool
01:52:01 <@ yosh> please shut up now
01:52:02 < Parn> it was 2 years ago, yosh
01:52:06 <@ yosh> you're a fool
01:52:12 <@ yosh> you're a typical gentoo fool
01:52:14 < Parn> and no, I'm not more of a fool than you
01:52:28 <@ yosh> none of your arguments are based in any sound logic or fact
01:52:44 < schumaml> what was that gentoo ricer page?
01:52:48 <@ yosh> no, I'm tired of fool gentoo users always proselytizing
01:52:56 <@ yosh> now you get it back in your foolish fucking face
01:53:00 < Parn> it was... unroll-loops.org or something like that, schumaml
01:53:17 <@ carol> the gimp gentoo user is pw
01:53:19 < Parn> I also read that page, was quite fun
01:53:24 <@yosh> Parn: leave. go compile photoshop with -O3 -fi-am-a-stupid-gentoo-user
01:53:29 <@yosh> Parn: I'm serious. fucking leave
01:53:43 < bill> you're both wrong, everyone knows Windows is better than any form of Linux
01:53:43 <@ jlbec> yosh: oh, play nice
01:53:45 < Parn> I didn't start this, yosh
01:53:49 <@yosh> Parn: yes you did
01:53:49 < Parn> I'm just defending myself
01:53:50 <@jlbec> Parn: you, back off as well.
Here, I got killed:
01:53:53 [gnome] -!- You were killed by yosh [~manish@graft.XCF.Berkeley.EDU] [(fuck off)] [Path: ]
once I connected again, I inmediatly got this:
01:56:16 [gnome] [yosh(~manish@graft.XCF.Berkeley.EDU)] I'm serious, you're banned from this network
01:56:43 [gnome] [yosh(~manish@graft.XCF.Berkeley.EDU)] fucking idiot
01:56:50 [gnome] [yosh(~manish@graft.XCF.Berkeley.EDU)] never ever try to handwave facts
01:57:09 [gnome] [yosh(~manish@graft.XCF.Berkeley.EDU)] never come back here ever

and got glined.

Here, I talked about the issue with the opers in the #opers room. Preceding this thanks, was a whole paste of the upper stuff, as requested by xenophile to paste it to the room itself:
19:59:06 < koneko> Thanks.
20:03:03 * Stric twiddles his thumbs waiting for something good
20:03:31 < CyBeR> what are we looking for/
20:03:34 < CyBeR> ?
20:03:40 <@ Stric> CyBeR: Cows I think.
20:04:36 < CyBeR> so far I haven't seen an oper so much as mentioned.
20:05:26 <@ Stric> You could have given an url to a text file too..
20:05:44 < CyBeR> ah, gentoo is mentioned.
20:06:43 < CyBeR> ah, yosh comes into play.
20:07:28 <@ Stric> So the first 200 lines was relevant how?
20:07:31 < koneko> I'm still glined at the moment, by the way.
20:07:34 < CyBeR> not sure.
20:07:45 < koneko> Stric: just context
20:08:25 <@ Stric> here's some context too: Gentoo has caused lots of support work for gimp people. They are tired of it.
20:08:43 < koneko> It's understandable, Stric
20:08:44 <@ Stric> Trying to convince gimp people that gentoo is the gift of God is thus doomed. You wouldn't listen.
20:09:22 < CyBeR> koneko: the best thing to do to get support on a gentoo system is not mention you're running it. Not just for gimp.
20:09:29 < koneko> CyBeR: I know
20:09:38 < CyBeR> anyway; we know yosh to only say things he's very, very damn sure about.
20:09:39 < koneko> I wasn't even looking for support
20:10:17 < CyBeR> koneko: well, the last part is hard to read
20:10:45 < koneko> stupid irssi put more than one line in one line, for some reason
20:11:08 <@ Stric> (and the referenced url above is www.funroll-loops.org)
20:11:18 < koneko> yes, that's the url
20:12:14 < koneko> anyways, I got told "a fucking idiot" and to "never to come back here ever", then glined
20:13:15 < koneko> all I did was mention Gentoo, then try and defend as best as I could from what I somehow unleashed
20:14:33 <@ Stric> and from their point: "yet another gentoo users with optimizations that has broken stuff, we tell him that and won't listen"
20:14:39 <@ Stric> s/users/user/
20:14:42 < CyBeR> exactly
20:14:58 < CyBeR> koneko: you have /no/ idea how many times we've been through this with other gentoo users
20:15:19 <@ Stric> (and because you had no idea, you were caught in the fire...)
20:15:23 < CyBeR> most of them are more hardheaded than Bush
20:15:56 < CyBeR> koneko: after a while, it gets tiring.
20:16:09 < koneko> It's understandable
20:16:23 < koneko> it happens which many stuff, not just Gentoo
20:16:32 < CyBeR> true
20:16:33 < koneko> there are those brainless zealots
20:16:48 < CyBeR> the gentooists generally are the most hard-core.
20:17:08 < CyBeR> (I've caught a lot of them recommending it to people wanting to get started with linux)
20:17:14 <@ Stric> and since we all do this stuff in our spare time, getting rid of "troublemakers" is favourable over spending all day trying to convince people
20:17:25 < koneko> there are gentoo users which really are ricers
20:18:11 <@ Stric> i.e. getting work done instead
20:18:56 < koneko> yeah, yet the "never come back here ever" "fucking idiot" gline part was overkill
20:20:26 <@ Stric> maybe it was.. but I can understand his view as well. conflicts seldom end well
20:23:49 < koneko> anyways, I'm relaying my gnome irc connection right now through somewhere else
20:24:47 < koneko> my address is 217.126.33.148, 148.Red-217-126-33.pooles.rima-tde.net in name form.
20:25:01 < CyBeR> koneko: the gline will expire automatically
20:25:26 < koneko> ident for the net used to be ~Mordor, and nick is Parn
20:25:31 < koneko> CyBeR: oh, forgot to mention it
20:25:59 < koneko> a while ago, I connected with no problems, joined some rooms and then went to do some work somewhere else
20:26:27 < koneko> rebooted for some test, and when started irssi again I was glined again :/
20:26:37 < CyBeR> koneko: that means it was re-added.
20:26:48 < koneko> yeah, I guessed that much
20:26:50 < CyBeR> our glines expire after 12 hours.
20:27:40 < koneko> yeah, it connected at 14h
20:27:49 < koneko> but well, it's there again
20:28:36 < xenophile> koneko: my advice, take your gimp problems to #gentoo
20:28:48 < xenophile> koneko: i like gentoo, i use it in some production environments
20:29:24 < koneko> xenophile: yeah, but it's not like I took my gentoo-specific problems with gimp there
20:29:44 < xenophile> koneko: but then again i also use redhat, suse, debian, mandrake, solaris, and the bsd family
20:29:51 < koneko> when I asked stuff, it was stuff that was with no doubt not different in gentoo
20:30:06 < koneko> xenophile: I use debian, gentoo and Amiga
20:30:26 < koneko> but my main desktop is gentoo
20:31:03 < mathew> why paste like 200 rows.. gah..
20:31:22 < koneko> then, if I had some problem like a segfault or something like that, I'd rebuild gimp with conservative CFLAGS and nostrip
20:31:46 < koneko> if it failed again, then I'd do some analisis with gdb
20:33:00 < koneko> I'm not that "-O999" "it segfaults" annoying dude.
20:35:00 <@ Stric> (in current gcc, -O999 and -O3 is the same)
20:35:20 < koneko> Stric: yeah, but you still got the point
20:37:23 * Stric wanders home
20:40:02 <@yosh> koneko: please leave this network
20:40:33 <@yosh> koneko: if you didn't spout fucked up handwavey arguments and stuck to facts, this wouldn't have happened
20:41:39 < koneko> yosh: I didn't do anything so evil to get this treatment.
20:42:06 <@yosh> koneko: you didn't stick to facts. people like you don't learn
20:42:24 <@yosh> koneko: people like you do not get to irc here
20:42:48 < koneko> yosh: I'm not as you describe me.
20:43:59 < koneko> I also hate arguments, and tried to work things out in a casual way; wasn't trying to convince anyone, either.
20:44:24 < mathew> Can you take this somewhere else? you disturb my irc-client.. #opers should be silent.. unless there is something intresting/important
20:44:31 <@ yosh> nod
20:45:08 < xenophile> mathew: good point

Then, yosh opened me a query:

20:45:04 -!- Irssi: Starting query in gnome with yosh
20:45:10 <yosh> and you fucking changed your story after being smacked down
20:45:19 <yosh> I'm sick of people like you
20:45:31 <koneko> I'm not like that, yosh
20:45:58 <yosh> then explain yesterday
20:46:16 <koneko> I use multiple distributions in my various machines
20:46:30 <yosh> also, spouting 200 lines to #opers whining doesn't help your case
20:46:33 <koneko> but yesterday, I was using my main desktop (which is gentoo)
20:46:59 <koneko> when I mentioned it... it developed like that
20:47:21 <koneko> I was inmediatly called a fool for using gentoo
20:47:25 <yosh> yeah
20:47:42 <yosh> you use gentoo, you know the attitude of 90% of gentoo users, you should've let it slide
20:47:49 <yosh> instead, you decided to preach
20:47:57 <yosh> IT WAS NOT THE PLACE TO DO THAT
20:48:14 <koneko> yeah, I know
20:48:17 <yosh> and you couldn't handle the refutement, and you changed your story in the middle
20:48:23 <koneko> yet I went with the flow
20:48:28 <yosh> and you made a complete handwavey argument
20:48:33 <yosh> that is why I banned you
20:48:54 <koneko> but I wasn't like trying to convince anyone
20:49:06 <yosh> why'd you fucking preach?
20:49:21 <koneko> because I was in a talkative mood
20:49:25 <yosh> you couldn't handle the preaching back, so why'd you fucking preach?
20:49:33 <yosh> that's a fucking lame excuse
20:49:36 <koneko> while gimp was doing hard, long, work
20:49:47 <yosh> wtf did you do for gimp that lets you preach like that?
20:49:55 <yosh> YOU HAVE CONTRIBUTED NOTHING
20:50:14 <yosh> YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TALK IN THE PROJECT CHANNEL ABOUT RANDOM BULLSHIT
20:50:17 <koneko> I wasn't aware I was annoying anyone
20:50:24 <yosh> you annoyed me
20:50:27 <yosh> it was very clear
20:50:37 <yosh> you kept on with the preaching
20:50:49 <yosh> you didn't like it? why'd you preach in the first place?
20:51:29 <koneko> because I got called a fool by some zealot of some other distribution
20:51:42 <yosh> you use gentoo. THAT IS PART OF USING GENTOO
20:51:48 <yosh> because, most gentoo people on irc are fools
20:51:53 <yosh> you have to live with it
20:51:59 <yosh> don't EVER FUCKING PREACH
20:52:04 <koneko> well, most people on irc are fools
20:52:08 <koneko> it's not gentoo-specific
20:52:11 <yosh> then don't irc
20:52:23 <yosh> seems you support my banning you now
20:52:28 <koneko> I don't
20:52:36 <koneko> it wasn't banning
20:52:48 <yosh> wtf
20:52:52 <yosh> go away
20:52:55 <yosh> "it wasn't banning"
20:53:00 <yosh> it was a server wide ban you fucknut
20:53:08 <yosh> fuck you
20:53:12 <yosh> never come back here
20:53:15 <koneko> yes, a network wide gline
20:53:21 <yosh> yes, a network wide BAN
20:53:26 <yosh> fucking idiot
20:53:30 <yosh> leave now
20:53:34 <yosh> I'll ban you again
20:53:44 <yosh> all you are is an argumentative twat
20:53:48 <koneko> I'm not
20:53:58 <koneko> and I don't deserve the treatment I'm getting from you
20:54:05 <yosh> maybe if you actually contributed back to projects you use you'd get some respect
20:54:11 <yosh> instead you argue with developers
20:54:19 <koneko> I don't.
20:54:24 <yosh> you preached
20:54:28 <yosh> you did not show respect
20:54:34 <koneko> but I didn't argue with anyone
20:54:57 <yosh> you did
20:54:59 <yosh> you preached
20:55:02 <yosh> leave forevrer
20:55:07 <yosh> you show no sign of learning
And here I got glined again, with the new address.

[ninjabadger]

20:51:59 <yosh> don't EVER FUCKING PREACH

yeah someone forgot to take his meds, i have not heard of any linux distro being hated like this, most people i have talked to about it know what the +/- of each is and are happy to make their own choice and let it drop.

From the looks of the chat log they heard "Gentoo" then baited you into defending it (which is fair enough since its your choice and opinion) then they got mad at you for doing what they had pretty much lead you to do,

this is a classic case of power gone to head couples with a lac of meds

[psyqil]

From http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=181330:

Certain upstream developers don't like us because we expose bugs in their code that don't show up when they build they official blessed binary packages. (yes seanegan, I'm saying there are BUGS in YOUR CODE. It's the truth. Get over it.) So they complain, and someone's first brush with Gentoo is a rant about how we're all a bunch of coke-addicted speed demons who optimize the hell out of everything and generally make their life difficult with confusing bug reports.

Then there are the people who compile everything with "-O3 -fomit-frame-pointers -ffast-math -fguess-at-hard-math -mmmx -msse2 -fexpensive-optimizations -mcpu=Pentium4 -march=AthlonXP -finline-functions" and don't understand why things crash from time to time. I think that's a tiny minority of Gentoo users, contrary to what that site claims. Like the rice-kids who cut down the springs in their Hondas and then don't understand why they can't corner worth crap anymore, there's not much we can do for them but hope they learn...

[fca]

Some immature person got upset.
Too bad the immature person can do a gline, but for the rest, I'd let it slide. You cannot convince him, and always remember the saying:
"Never argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level and then win by experience".

[ashtophet]

this is a classic case of power gone to head couples with a lac of meds

of course it is.

[nahpets]

Geez. What a moron. Looks like the guy has a God complex or something.

[playfool]

From http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=181330:

Certain upstream developers don't like us because we expose bugs in their code that don't show up when they build they official blessed binary packages. (yes seanegan, I'm saying there are BUGS in YOUR CODE. It's the truth. Get over it.) So they complain, and someone's first brush with Gentoo is a rant about how we're all a bunch of coke-addicted speed demons who optimize the hell out of everything and generally make their life difficult with confusing bug reports.

Then there are the people who compile everything with "-O3 -fomit-frame-pointers -ffast-math -fguess-at-hard-math -mmmx -msse2 -fexpensive-optimizations -mcpu=Pentium4 -march=AthlonXP -finline-functions" and don't understand why things crash from time to time. I think that's a tiny minority of Gentoo users, contrary to what that site claims. Like the rice-kids who cut down the springs in their Hondas and then don't understand why they can't corner worth crap anymore, there's not much we can do for them but hope they learn...

we are probably far more likely to uncover bugs in GCC doing that, either one is a good thing though, as long as we can fix it and bugs are reported the correct way.

[nadir-san]

aha, thats cool.
the gimp rocks though. They are just hardened Debian users, they will see the light some day. Well tbh ubuntu is pretty cool. But for a home pc or a tweaked machine, Gentoo all the way. Debian users are like so suck in their ways,
'omfg you taint your kernel with that evil nvidia proprietory software, how could you???' .etc
Oh well, they lose

[Hypnos]

Free software developer behavior often leads something to be desired. Some different kinds of unacceptable behavior I have encountered, ranked loosely in order of decreasing annoyance:

* They think they're doing some great humanitarian work, and want you to bow down, bitch. (Narcissistic)

* Hobby code development is a refuge from the oppression of customer requirements and other real world features, yet they want their software as widely used and acclaimed as possible. (Borderline)

* Code is a playground for their closest held technical beliefs, and you better not question them or they might wig out. (Schizotypal)

* They ignore you, or give you effortless, formulaic responses. (Schizoid)

[hinken]

This thread makes me sad!

What a fucking asshole.....how can anybody treat a fellow linux user that way.
I really think the GIMP-team is doing a super job, but WTF!

If this is a common Debian-view of other distros than their own, I really feel sorry for all Debian users out there.

just my 2c

[GeoffOs]

Every village always had the idiot.
As the online communities grow and diversify, the number of village idiots also increases.

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616), "Macbeth", Act 5 scene 5

[Voltago]

Well this Parn person did start bragging about system speed and portage features when taunted, which was not exactly to the point. If he simply had ignored the troll, things might have been different.

[Rem]

Well, it is not very smart to start judging people based on the usage of Gentoo. This goes the other way round to btw, Debian users are not all fools. Just notice the different use of language (polite versus rude). Just a childish response if you ask me.

[hinken]

Well this Parn person did start bragging about system speed and portage features when taunted, which was not exactly to the point. If he simply had ignored the troll, things might have been different.

I would do the same thing in that situation.
If people attacking/making fun of me for using Gentoo and not Debian in a forum I would at least explain why Im using Gentoo.(Speed and portage is a good reason).

I cant see the bragging part, just a guy explaining why he uses Gentoo.


/just my 2c

[starachna]

yaw, that's not cool at all! specially from another linux user, maby he had a bad day, nevertheless, thats bad manners.

[Arker]

Not that I condone the actions of yosh or anything, but we all have bad days. The victim could see the problem excelating and would not shut it. He knew he was arguing with an op. He must have known that the impression of the others in the channel of Gentoo users is not that much of a stretch.

Although I think the reaction of the op was an overreaction, any reasonable person who did not match the description of thier "typical Gentoo using fool" would have clammed up in a similar situation. Instead, he kept on pressing. Most of you know that IRC rules and regs are only what the ops within earshot feel like enforcing at that particular moment. They are not that hard to avoid, and when you do sense conflict with one, you are not going to win.

I think that the glining recieved is nothing but a good thing for the recipient. They do expire eventually, and maybe he can consider it a lesson learned. Anyone who is not an enthusiast for Gentoo couldn't care less about the weak facts he was spewing. Save that stuff for here, or another Gentoo specific forum. No matter what distrobution you use, there is a good chance that you are an enthusiast about it, just like we are with Gentoo, and we don't typically like people preaching to us about other distros either.

Cheers,
~djc

[richk449]

Wow, superfanny (or Parn) is totally in the wrong here. If you go on a non-gentoo channel, and write 13 lines in a row about how great Gentoo is, including gems like these:

01:41:23 < Parn> it's like you're denying the usefulness of the work of gcc developers
...
01:42:46 < Parn> differences are there, and they're significant
...
01:44:04 < Parn> Portage kicks ass
01:44:37 < Parn> the level of control I do have; I can do stuff my way

then you should expect to get kicked. With all the unfair crap that Gentoo users get, the last thing we need is people going into random channels and quoting from funroll-loops.com.

Here are the basic rules:

1) If someone is receptive to what you are saying about Gentoo, and asks questions about it, answer them honestly. If you really feel that Gentoo makes your computer run faster (and you know enough and have run enough linux systems to reasonably know), then you can say so.

2) Once the person you are talking to says "gentoo is based on belief" or something similar, stop arguing with them. You are not going to get anywhere. If the person believes that, then argument, no matter how good, will simply not work. You could be James Carville with Karl Rove for an assistant, and it wouldn't help.

Consider it this way: (only applies for the atheists) Say a evangelist comes to your door and wants to tell you about the Glory of the Lord. You, as a good atheist, think that everything he is saying is based on an irrational belief. He can tell you that being born again makes every day wonderful, and being with God fills you with the holy spirit, which is the most incredible feeling ever (or is it evar?). But none of that matters to you, because you know that what he is saying is not based on the truth - he is so caught up in his own beliefs that he can't see reality.

Obvisouly, Gentoo is different than evangelical christianity, but there are some similarities in the ways that Gentoo users feel they need to save/convert other linux users. If you take evey opportunity to push Gentoo, people will start to (a) turn off whenever they hear the word Gentoo, and (b) hate you. And their response is pretty reasonable, in my mind.

3) If you are really smart, and want to transition from a flame-war to a real discussion, say something generous about other distros as a concillatory remark. For instance "Well, I am really happy with Gentoo, but I suppose that Debian does have it's advantages. To each his own." If the other person is interested in learning about Gentoo, he might ask about some of Gentoo's advantages. Or he might want to talk about Debian's advantages. Maybe you will learn more about Debian, and decide you want to try it. Either way, at least you are having a conversation.

[Voltago]

[...]

Amen.

[psyqil]

[...]

Amen.

Me too!

[hinken]

THE GOLDEN GENTOO USER RULES:
If someone insult you: s.t.f.u
If someone insult gentoo: s.t.f.u
Dont forget we are Gentoo-users:the lowest kind of linux-users.

IRC-GENTOO-RULES

WRONG:

Code: Select all

01:40:32 < schumaml> gentoo isbased on belief
01:40:32 <@ neo> apps crash faster, that's all 
01:40:53 < Parn> schumaml, neo: you're just plain wrong
01:41:23 < Parn> it's like you're denying the usefulness of the work of gcc developers
01:41:52 < Parn> here, I've used gentoo for two years already
01:42:01 < Parn> and I've had my time to make my benchmarks and stuff
01:42:39 < Parn> stuff as simple as startup times, optimizing for athlon vs for 386, using different compilers, etc
01:42:46 < Parn> differences are there, and they're significant 

RIGHT:

Code: Select all

01:40:32 < schumaml> gentoo isbased on belief
01:40:32 <@ neo> apps crash faster, that's all 
01:40:53 < Parn> schumaml, neo: you're just to leet. forgive me for using gentoo.

[richk449]

THE GOLDEN GENTOO USER RULES:
If someone insult you: s.t.f.u
If someone insult gentoo: s.t.f.u
Dont forget we are Gentoo-users:the lowest kind of linux-users.
...

False dichotomy. There are plenty of reasonable responses that lie between rabid evangalism and self-flagellation.

[basse1989]

Those guys at #gimp don't seem to be too kind.

Can't they see that some of the linux user want thier computer running fast

[spb]

[...]

Amen.

Thirded. AFAICT, the reasons people dislike Gentoo are
(1) we tend to break their software
(2) People who use insane compiler flags and say omg gentoo is so much faster!! debian is sloooww!!~!~!~!.

The fact is that in most cases, your insane compiler flags are not going to make a noticable difference, in some cases they can be slower than a straight -O2, and they tend to make stuff break. People going around and claiming that they make their computer so much faster than yours tend to get irritating.

So yeah, don't be like the people on funroll-loops.org, kids.

[GentooBox]

Those guys at #gimp don't seem to be too kind.

Can't they see that some of the linux user want thier computer running fast

And debian cant be fast ?

Just because gentoo is sources based dosent mean that it´s the fastest distro.

The Gimp developers is not very nice - yoper is showing that he has power, nothing else.

[basse1989]

Those guys at #gimp don't seem to be too kind.

Can't they see that some of the linux user want thier computer running fast

And debian cant be fast ?

Just because gentoo is sources based dosent mean that it´s the fastest distro.

The Gimp developers is not very nice - yoper is showing that he has power, nothing else.

I know