Gentoo not for first time users?

Message

serendipity · Post by **serendipity** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:08 pm

After seeing many first time Linux users posting their installation woes on the various forums here, I figured I 'd set the cat among the pigeons by observing that I think that Gentoo is not a distribution for a first time user.

Of course, this is my opinion, and no doubt others might have different opinions. I have been using various flavours of Unix and Linux since the late 1980s, and while I really appreciate the elegance of Gentoo, particularly the powerful portage system (as well as the lack of SysV init scripts), I honestly think that it demands a level of technicity that is way beyond the novice user. If I take myself back to my early days, I have difficulty envisaging installing and configuring Gentoo successfully. I think at minimum that one needs to be either experienced with Linux, or if not, at least an experienced C/C++ programmer.

It would be interesting to hear the opinions of both experienced users and those new to Linux. What do you think?

redpotatoes · Post by **redpotatoes** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:24 pm

I agree with you, Gentoo ain't for first time users. I not an expert with Linux but not a noob either and the first time I installed Gentoo I add couples of problems. So I would recommend to any new Linux users to just start with something less complicated like RedHat or another distribution other than Gentoo. Its not the best distribution to learn Linux.

duffolonious · Post by **duffolonious** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:27 pm

I think at minimum that one needs to be either experienced with Linux, or if not, at least an experienced C/C++ programmer.

Experienced with linux perhaps, but certainly not an experienced C/C++ programmer (some of the devs aren't even that).

The thing with Gentoo is--as far as the install goes--that it's not bad if nothing goes wrong, but if something does, you can run into a myriad of problems. That is where being a linux novice is a problem.

I honestly can't answer that question: when I started with gentoo I had some linux/programming knowledge (although I will say I learned more of both with gentoo, than with any other distro I've tried).

All I have to say is some are smarter than others, and some have easier computers to work with, with simpler configurations. With this question in mind, I wonder if I could get my father to do a stage3 install... although he has to go the modem route, which is tricky.

Putrifier · Post by **Putrifier** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:26 pm

I just installed Gentoo for the first time about a week ago. Except for a couple of looks into the Knoppix CD, Id never stepped out of the Microsoft domain.
And it was completely do-able, and I enjoyed every bit of it.
The guide is extremely detailed and well writen. and for those few problems that I did stumble upon, a quick search in the Gentoo forums, and if that didnt work, in Google, always managed to get me an answer.
So, here I am today, still in Gentoo, without the courage to reboot in my XP install, because I feel just so damn comfortable here.
No, if there is a distro that is for first time users, its Gentoo, because it doesnt try to cheat the user, with fancy and painless installation procedures, and booting him straight to a GUI, like Knoppix or Mandrake do. because, after he is in the GUI, the user will still have problems, which he wont be able to figure out until he has basic knowledge of Linux/Gentoo. The installation procedure does that just fine.

Zyne · Post by **Zyne** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:06 pm

I gotta agree with Putrifier.

my first ever linux install was Gentoo too. Of course I had messed up a few things, but I gotta say that google and this forum solved all of my problems.
I started out with a stage3, and moved on to a stage 1 install just a few weeks later.

The install guide is fantastic! every single step is explained in detail, with the necessary pros and cons if needed.
Gentoo is the linux OS with choices, and every choice is explained very well!

I still have Windows XP as a 2nd OS on my comp, but I never even booted it during the last few weeks. Everything is done in linux, and I'm trying to keep it that way too!!!

gentoo rocks, even for newbies like me

isogorn · Post by **isogorn** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:29 pm

i think a lot of people switching to linux from M$ are afraid of the command-line. gentoo is the third or fourth distro ive dealt with, and its the only one thats stuck. while the others were easier to install, i didnt know much about the way the OS worked (how the filesystem works, what folders and config files are where, etc) and so i had trouble effectively using it. i think the gentoo install however, forced me to jump into the command line and learn linux in general. and now that ive got a decent understanding of it, i think its actually much easier to use than any other distro ive dealt with. (doesnt get much easier than 'emerge whatever' )

serendipity · Post by **serendipity** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:37 pm

isogorn wrote: i think a lot of people switching to linux from M$ are afraid of the command-line. [snip...] i think the gentoo install however, forced me to jump into the command line and learn linux in general. and now that ive got a decent understanding of it, i think its actually much easier to use than any other distro ive dealt with. (doesnt get much easier than 'emerge whatever' )

That's a pretty good insight. It's true that a lot of other distros try to "dumb things down". I think the major problem installing any linux distro is to blindly follow a recipe without reading the documentation properly. Kinda shoot from the hip and pray we hit the target.

Great responses people: exactly the kind of debate I was trying to provoke.

DrKayBee · Post by **DrKayBee** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:52 pm

My first distro was FC1 (Dec '03) - I liked yum very much and was in general quite satisfied with it. Then around March 04, I started running into hardware trouble (dust inside the case == overheating etc). I though it was fedora giving me trouble (It did randomly hang on me a couple times). Then I tried to do a distro-upgrade to FC2 and that was the end of it. <insert rant about bloat and double files here>

Up until then, the only thing I had heard about Gentoo was that it compiles everything, and only programmers like it. (this was mostly from the /. crowd, complete with random jokes about compiling everything from scratch)

My most pleasant surprise was when I first run a minimal installation disk and got a very polished looking interface (The purple framebuffer). Tried doing the Stage I install.. which, because my hardware was crappy, kept failing. This *allowed* me to recognize the hardware problem immediately. A quick clean and another memory module later I was doing the Stage I, even as more or less a complete newbie.

In FC, the most *unix* I had done was

Code: Select all

./configure; make; make install

Now, granted that I *like* tinkering with computers and building my own box was just a hobby for me, I think going Gentoo has taught me a lot of linux, both for fun and for real productivity. The Gentoo box now serves as a backup storage, a print server, for doing number crunching (as a 3d renderer), as a multimedia server (Internet radio, mp3, DVD and even MythTV). Since then, I've helped a production server move from SuSE to Gentoo, have build a couple small boxes to work as internet radio appliances and am looking forward to making a Gentoo-based Home Theatre system.

What made me come to Gentoo was the cool factor (and the nice bootsplash of the LiveCD). What makes me stay is the forums. For my part, I give 2 cds to anyone who wants to go linux. One is Knoppix, the other is the Gentoo LiveCD. It doesn't get any easier than Knoppix and doesn't get any more powerful than Gentoo.

Maeglamor · Post by **Maeglamor** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:05 pm

As someone who's just getting into linux I wanted to learn as much as possible from the experience, thus I chose to do a stage 1 install and I have to admit it has been anything but smooth. This has not put me off however as I am learning quite a lot simply due to trial and error, though I must be honest and say it is often bothersome when the answer to a particular problem is not evident.

I think a gentoo based linux primer would be particularly useful, the install manual is quite clearly laid out but on many occassions I have asked myself 'why is this done in that fashion', or 'how much can I undo/overwrite/tweak the existing setup and how is it done?'. Also some indication of the nuances that make gentoo different from a vanilla linux install would be useful.

I knew that jumping straight in at stage 1 would require a lot of reading and would have a steep learning curve, I installed fedora before and was unimpressed by the lack of flexability and the instabilities on a very generic set of hardware. Knoppix is a Godsend IMHO, it allows anyone to see what linux can do with almost zero pre-knowledge, thus it is something of an ambassador for those who still think linux is inferior to Windows.

To date I have set up a working stage 1 install on my athlon-xp PC, I have yet to install a GUI as I ran into problems initally and have yet to find an answer but everything I try at least gives me more information on how everything fits together. I'm working on a stage 1 for my laptop at the moment.

Linux is still very much a tinkerers OS and has a lot to do before it can hope to get the kind of users that are drawn to windows which despite its many shortcomings has user friendlyness and ease of use in buckets, linux is not intuitive for the most part but as it has been pointed out; the price of such configurability and power is a decrease in ease of use.

Most of my friends ask me to fix their windows boxes when they invariably go toes up and thus I do not consider them the kind of people who should use linux and definetly not gentoo. Gentoo should be relabled as 'an OS for those who have time' and should definately come with a required reading list.

IT · Post by IT » Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:07 pm

well...I have to say, I've tried other Linux installs before...namely RedHat...but that was much like Windows as far as installing...most everything is done for you. What attracted me to Gentoo was the ability to customize everything for one...and the flip side to that coin is that in doing so...you're forced to learn. That's my biggest goal...to learn about the command lines and "how to". I've yet to successfully get Gentoo up and running...but every time I decide to "start over"...I pick up something I missed last time. Believe me...I know what it can be like in "flaming" forums...and these Gentoo forums are very friendly...but I still hate asking questions which are obviously noob questions...could anyone recommend a forum to hit up where one could ask those painful questions? like "does it hurt to emerge gnome in the step 7e? or should I wait untill after "reboot"?" or "...what do I do next?" and how about "does it matter what directory you are in while doing certain steps of the install?"...stuff like that and more obviously. My hesitation to ask question in ceratin cases has gotten me better at finding the answers...but there yet remains so much I don't know and won't find out anytime soon...meanwhile...I emerge...and emerge...and emerge.

Titeuf · Post by **Titeuf** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:13 pm

My first Linux distro was Mandrake. I liked it, but didn't like the way they customised everything: the k-menu, mandrake icon for the k-menu, trying to make gnome and kde look the same. I also didn't like to install programs with RPM.
Then I've once tried to install Debian. I've downloaded the 8 discs, and discovered the programs on it were old versions. The xfree was too old to work with my Geforce FX. So I did a net install. I was happy using Debian, till the day I've upgraded kde to 3.2.3: the keramik theme was gone. I could solve this problem, but I didn't like Debian anymore.
Then I've tried Gentoo. I liked the way to install programs, I also liked that I couldn't accidently install too much, because you don't have to "select" which programs you wan't to install.
Now I'm still using Gentoo and still likes it.
Now I think Gentoo can be someone's first linux distro as long as they know something about computers, and aren't scared of any problems they will encounter.

Post by **NeddySeagoon** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:18 pm

I think it all depends on the potential users objective. If they want a Linux sys-admin learning experiance, then Gentoo is a good place to start. If they want a quick install, learn nothing, just use the system to be productive distro, then Gentoo comes a fair way doen the list.

tomk · Post by **tomk** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:46 pm

Moved from Installing Gentoo.

!db! · Post by **!db!** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:00 pm

I'll echo what has been posted and go so far as to suggest that a complete Gentoo installation might just be the best thing one could try when starting out with Linux ...

Let's assume that few people are actually shopping around for Linux as a direct alternative to Windows, i.e. an equivalent to Windows, just cheaper ... (well, I hope they're not). I instead imagine most Linux users came at a crossroads at some point where they either 'needed' to work in a 'nix environment, or wanted to learn, etc., as I did. In any case, this usually implied some effort in getting started.

Two years ago, I went for RedHat as an easy solution. OK, it installed almost as easy as Windows, but the thing soon became as bloated (as Windows) and I was in no way capable of fixing any hardware problems or even less understanding a makefile.

About 6 months ago, I came to the conclusion that this was the wrong way to get started with Linux. I have not looked back since. The dozens and dozens of invested hours have been worth while: through the often-painful process of a complete installation, you do get a thorough understanding of what the kernel does, what may screw-up X, 'nix file structure and navigation, etc. Since then, I managed to install Gentoo on 2 others boxes very quickly. Whenever a snag does occur, I usually am able to find a solution within a few hours, even minutes. Would not have been possible without successfully going through the Gentoo installation process initially. Many long term Mandrake and RedHat users with whom I work with are now Gentoo converts. And indeed, nothing really beats 'emerge'.

Sure, I come across the occasional individual at work who'll say 'Linux eh? I have a half-hour, mind showing me how you managed' - which always makes me squint. But for those who are a bit more serious and want to become better at what they do, the initial week or two of Gentoo investment is well worth it.

Fanatic · Post by **Fanatic** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:25 pm

I don't think that Gentoo is a good dist for first time users. I remember switching from Mandrake 8.1 to slackware 9.. that was a horrifying experience. The switch from Slack to Gentoo was so much easier.

strestout1 · Post by **strestout1** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:37 pm

i recommend gentoo to everyone, even noobs. the first time i tried installing gentoo i was extremely ticked because x wouldnt emerge (i later found out it was just a network problem and had i waited a few hours it would have been solved). i just switched to gentoo (finally!) from slackware about a month ago and i'm enjoying every bit of it. the install guide is extremely detailed and as long as you go by it, its very doable. i tried installing using the short guide at first and that didn't go well at all (maybe because i was installing from inside a knoppix live cd), but the extended guide is perfect. i commend the gentoo devs and community for having such detailed and (pretty much) up to date documentation.

grover · Post by **grover** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:36 pm

I installed gentoo for a friend and hes never used linux before. I just got him to boot off a knoppix cd, set a root password and start sshd. I logged in from 200km's away and set it all up for him. A few months later and he hasn't killed anything yet and its still running.

Once everything is setup, gentoo is as easy to use as any other distro. The documentation is excellent, and the tools are fairly simple and straight forward to use.

Verted · Post by **Verted** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:37 pm

I would have to disagree. I am a complete Linux n00b. Never had any experience with it when I put in the Gentoo cd. You may have seen my posts up on the boards(I've made loads).

I still havnt got my install finalised (Well, Gentoo is installed, but not Gnome, or anything else), but it's only take me over a week, and the amount I've learned has been totally worth it.

I knew the install would be hard when I first started it, but I was determined to get the best possible options that I could for my new computer, which is why I chose Gentoo, over the easier ditro's, such as Mandrake or Red Hat.

Anyone can use Gentoo, depending on their patience, and in a way, luck on how smoothly everything goes. Printing a copy of the manual certainly helps;)

kamagurka · Post by **kamagurka** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:41 pm

Gentoo is my first linux experience (and i'm loving it); i was windows all the way. however, i must admit that while the installation is, coupled with the docs and the forums, only marginally harder than a cooking recipe, i am rather sure that most people would not have the patience or sheer interest to work through 30 pages of docs before trying the install...
however, when my X ran the first time (after 2 weeks of tinkering and about 100 posts to the forum), i knew more about my linux install than any suse or redhat user after a year, i tell you.

Verted · Post by **Verted** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:52 pm

Kamagurka - Sounds like you had very similar experiences to what I am having at the moment. I'm just glad i'm not the only person to have so many problems:-p

janlaur · Post by **janlaur** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:33 pm

gentoo was also my first linux. It took some time to read and understand the installation manual, but i never really had any problems.
I didn't have to make a single post. Everthing was already answered in other posts.
I've since tried debian, redhat, mandrake etc. but always returned to the best

kamagurka · Post by **kamagurka** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:18 pm

Verted wrote:Kamagurka - Sounds like you had very similar experiences to what I am having at the moment. I'm just glad i'm not the only person to have so many problems:-p

it's worth it, keep going ;)

shadowman · Post by **shadowman** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:06 am

When I started using Linux, Slackware was the only game in town. The Gentoo stage 1 install is a walk in the park compared to getting Slack 1.0 going.

djm · Post by **djm** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:30 pm

I wouldn't recommend gentoo to a first time linux user, but plenty of people have done stage 1 installs without any problems the first time they used linux

I think it depends on the individual as much as anything

Getting gentoo to work was easier for me than getting Debian Woody to work (when I didn't know anything about linux/unix). I installed it so many times that I could get the whole thing done (from the first screen you see to the end of installing most of the stuff that tasksel installs) in 25 minutes. When you consider that this involves choosing kernel modules, answering a lot of questions and a reboot, that's not bad

cryptodev · Post by **cryptodev** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:32 pm

If you follow the installation handbook and don't try anything too wacky a first time user could use it. However, the installation for Mandrake is much easier from a noob standpoint. Of course, that is assuming that nothing goes wrong. When something goes wrong with Mandrake, it's much harder to work around than in Gentoo.

Gentoo not for first time users?

Gentoo not for first time users?

meh