Systemd encroachment?

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

So how is systemd's encroachment on GNU/Linux these days? I see that, not only is systemd still around in force, still buggy and insecure, but it is growing with more and more things nobody wants, like homed. It's like a virus in a host body. It keeps growing, mutating, and controlling more and more. How long until the host is the slave of the virus?

I am doing my first clean Gentoo install in two years. I already masked the stuff dealing with systemd (udev, systemd) and intend on being a true GNU/Linux user for as long as is possible. So far I have been able to avoid systemd personally due to Gentoo. The thing is, it's becoming difficult to find a good binary Linux distro without systemd that has a working desktop and all. The closest I had found was PCLOS, but the lead dev/top-dog is a genuine jerk, always cracking jokes and treating users like they're kids. Artix does well for shell-only servers, but the only real Linux desktop OS I can find that works great and the team is fair, is Gentoo. I don't really wanna' maintain a thousand desktops running Gentoo though!

So how are things moving along? I've been idle for a long time, happy with Gentoo while the world moved forward. Are there any decent Linux distros out there? I mean GNU/Linux, not Systemd/Linux. Oh, and I'm not switching, I'm just curious.

[pjp]

Keep in mind that strongly stated opinions are likely to elicit strongly stated responses, which historically leads to a thread being locked. Name-calling isn't going to help, even if it might be objectively true.

That said, I don't use systemd and haven't had anything related show up since the tmpfiles change. I'm aware of the home directory thing, but haven't seen anything requiring it. And it seems like optional functionality given the number of organizations that don't allow external devices being plugged into their hardware. I suppose it could be implemented to also encrypt non-removable directories too.

[pingtoo]

In light of this discussion: upgrade philosophies, What is your reason not wanting to use Gentoo?

I don't really wanna' maintain a thousand desktops running Gentoo

Have you consider Gentoo binhost concept? In my mind having good control of what constitute my organization's standard is very important.

Using a third party binary distro, letting someone else's idea decide when or how a system should be, it is not an advantage.

[pjp]

I meant to respond to the 1000 desktop comment as well... Honestly, unless there was a good reason not to, I'd probably use Ubuntu, Fedora or something similar, possibly a mix of a few options (user choice if we aren't talking about a "kiosk" type situation). For generic use, I'd want the least of my time involved with user desktops. Given the right situation, I'd of course be willing to work with specific needs, provided there weren't 1000 unique desktops.

[steve_v]

Are there any decent Linux distros out there? I mean GNU/Linux, not Systemd/Linux.

Devuan... If you can deal with package versions slightly older than Debian Stable. If low maintenance is what you're looking for, this is it.
Or you could go proper traditional and try Slackware, there's even a shiny new release to play with.

[xineg]

Are there any decent Linux distros out there? I mean GNU/Linux, not Systemd/Linux.

Devuan... If you can deal with package versions slightly older than Debian Stable. If low maintenance is what you're looking for, this is it.
Or you could go proper traditional and try Slackware, there's even a shiny new release to play with.

+1 on Devuan.

[Fitzcarraldo]

The_Great_Sephiroth,

I have not got around to trying it myself, but Calculate Linux has been recommended to me a few times. Apparently it is essentially pre-compiled Gentoo Linux and uses OpenRC rather than systemd. You could try that to see if it fits your requirements. I have been thinking of trying it myself.

Both my laptops running Gentoo Linux use OpenRC and I intend them to stay that way, as I am not a fan of systemd, although my other machines use systemd-based binary distributions (Lubuntu and openSUSE), and they work well once configured according to my requirements. I tend to agree with pjp on this one; if I had to support circa 1,000 desktop machines I'd plump for Ubuntu, Fedora or something similar that also has a large user-base and plenty of available know-how and support if needed. I recently installed GeckoLinux Rolling (essentially pre-configured openSUSE Tumbleweed) on an old nettop and it works well so far.

[Anon-E-moose]

I had started looking at calculate a month ago, but things have gotten in the way.

Anyway here's a list of the downloadable versions of calculate a/o the latest

Code: Select all

Featured Packages

    CLD (KDE desktop): KDE Frameworks 5.88.0, KDE Plasma 5.23.5, KDE Applications 21.08.3, LibreOffice 7.2.5.2, Chromium 98.0.4758.80 - 3.18 G
    CLDC (Cinnamon desktop): Cinnamon 5.0.6, LibreOffice 7.2.5.2, Chromium 98.0.4758.80, Evolution 3.40.4, Gimp 2.10.30, Rhythmbox 3.4.4 - 2.89 G
    CLDL (LXQt desktop): LXQt 0.17, LibreOffice 7.2.5.2, Chromium 98.0.4758.80, Claws Mail 3.17.8, Gimp 2.10.30, Strawberry 1.0 - 2.89 G
    CLDM (MATE desktop): MATE 1.24, LibreOffice 7.2.5.2, Chromium 98.0.4758.80, Claws Mail 3.17.8, Gimp 2.10.30, Strawberry 1.0 - 3.0 G
    CLDX (Xfce desktop): Xfce 4.16, LibreOffice 7.2.5.2, Chromium 98.0.4758.80, Claws Mail 3.17.8, Gimp 2.10.30, Strawberry 1.0.1 - 2.82 G
    CLDXS (Xfce Scientific desktop): Xfce 4.16, Eclipse 4.15, Inkscape 1.1, LibreOffice 7.2.5.2, Chromium 98.0.4758.80, Claws Mail 3.18, Gimp 2.10.30 - 3.12 G
    CDS (Directory Server): OpenLDAP 2.4.58, Samba 4.15.3, Postfix 3.6.3, ProFTPD 1.3.8, Bind 9.16.22 - 835 M
    CLS (Linux Scratch): Xorg-server 21.1.3, Kernel 5.15.19 - 1.5 G
    CSS (Scratch Server): Kernel 5.15.19, Calculate Utilities 3.7.2.14 - 628 M

[NeddySeagoon]

The_Great_Sephiroth,

I don't really wanna' maintain a thousand desktops running Gentoo though!

That would be doing it wrong. You maintain one and use the image (or binary packages) on the other 999.

[figueroa]

1,000 of anything is a lot of maintenance no matter what it is. But, quite a few years ago incident to hardware upgrades, I moved our small school staff desktops and computer labs from Gentoo to Mint. The users liked it, but I found it messy being the system admin. I'm almost done now re-migrating those desktop PCs and labs from Mint to MX-Linux. I find MX-Linux easier to maintain as the system admin, and the users are just as happy. MX is based on Debian stable but with more up-to-date desktop application packages. It has systemd installed, but boots with sysv-init by default.

I find the state of Gentoo without systemd completely satisfactory. I'm not bothered by things like elogind and udev. They make life on the desktop easier for the user and I don't fret where they come from. I like to be practical. I really like OpenRC. It fits like a well broken in pair of shoes. If I had a voice, I would lobby Gentoo to stay on the path it's been on.

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

Sadly, we have a mish-mash of desktop models. Mostly Dell, but a good variance on the models based on when various clients upgraded, what their budgets were, etc. It would be a pain either way.

I used Devuan once or twice but was not impressed. I never tried calculate, but if it's systemd-free I'll check it out in a VM. There are a few I am looking at but they tend to either be out of date or are missing packages due to not using systemd.

That's more of what I was curious about. Does it seem like more packages/software are doing the whole "depends on systemd" thing or are things perhaps going the other way? I don't mind that systemd exists but I refuse to use it. What irks me is software being bound to it so it cannot be used without systemd. Things like, AFAIK, Gnome. I do not use the Gnome desktop, but I am fairly sure it is tied to systemd in a major way now. Perhaps I am mistaken.

[NeddySeagoon]

The_Great_Sephiroth,

GNOME was migrated away from systemd to elogind.

[Fitzcarraldo]

The_Great_Sephiroth,

My impression is that systemd dependency is becoming more likely, not less so. However the systemd-logind component was forked to create elogind so that software written to use that part of systemd can function without installing systemd:

- GNOME ( see https://blogs.gentoo.org/leio/2019/03/26/gnome-3-30/ )
- Wayland in KDE
- Skype for Linux
- light-locker >=1.9.0 ( see viewtopic-t-1101032.html )
(I don't know if the above list is exhaustive.)

The KCM (KDE configuration module) plasma-firewall has been 'hard-coded' to use systemd and cannot therefore be used with OpenRC - see New firewall module in kde. It is not too difficult to patch it so that systemd is not required to use the KCM with UFW, but too much hassle to patch it to remove the systemd requirement in order to use the KCM with firewalld. As far as I know, no other components of KDE have been hard-coded to require systemd.

A couple of years ago the KDE developers wrote that KDE Plasma optionally uses systemd for startup but it would not be made mandatory:

https://pointieststick.com/2020/09/18/t ... -happened/

I would not be surprised if more software becomes dependent on systemd in future, especially as the majority of distributions now use systemd.

Have a look at the distributions listed as completely free of systemd and elogind on the following page: systemd-free linux community. I have not tried any of those so cannot vouch for them, but you could evaluate them for suitability for the desktop machines you support if you are adamant that you don't want to install systemd and elogind on them. I rather suspect their user base is relatively small, though.

[kernel_tux]

I have a "I'm Swiss" position on the whole init system debate...whichever's the best tool for the job. For me, systemd's too feature-rich for what I need, so I use OpenRC; however, I can see some use-cases where systemd would be the better choice. What I hope doesn't happen is that DE's become so coupled with it that other init systems are no longer viable.

[Muso]

I meant to respond to the 1000 desktop comment as well... Honestly, unless there was a good reason not to, I'd probably use Ubuntu, Fedora or something similar, possibly a mix of a few options (user choice if we aren't talking about a "kiosk" type situation). For generic use, I'd want the least of my time involved with user desktops. Given the right situation, I'd of course be willing to work with specific needs, provided there weren't 1000 unique desktops.

Indeed. Time must be spent supporting 1000 unique laptops.

@OP, learn the system. Build your Linux system as you wish. Gentoo provides the flexibility to do just that. Complaining about an option you can choose not to indulge in seems a bit strange to me.

[arnvidr]

Artix does well for shell-only servers

Curious what in particular limits it like this for you. I've been running it on my laptop for years now, and it's been up to the task for the most part (and what it's not up to is mostly because of the weak laptop, not the OS).