Xorg forked to XLibre

Message

Leonardo.b · Post by **Leonardo.b** » Fri Jul 11, 2025 6:01 pm

I think there is an huge waste of energy in the open source community.
A wise man 10 hours discussion often is worth less than an average kid 10 minutes actually doing something (maybe poorly).

siljrath · Post by **siljrath** » Sat Jul 12, 2025 9:05 pm

Leonardo.b wrote:I think there is an huge waste of energy in the open source community.
A wise man 10 hours discussion often is worth less than an average kid 10 minutes actually doing something (maybe poorly).

Yup.

Xorg forked to XLibre
[ Goto pageGoto page: 1 ... 6, 7, 8 ] 175 replies, 630337 views. Started: Tue Jun 10, 2025 4:37 pm. Latest post: Fri Jul 11, 2025 6:01 pm

https://gpo.zugaina.org/Search?search=XLibre still says:
No Results Found

stefan11111 · Post by **stefan11111** » Sun Jul 13, 2025 2:06 am

Leonardo.b wrote:I think there is an huge waste of energy in the open source community.
A wise man 10 hours discussion often is worth less than an average kid 10 minutes actually doing something (maybe poorly).

Sometimes those 'wise men' who talk a lot are also the 'average kids' that implement the stuff.
I'd rather spend days debating how we should implement something, that write 5 different implementations of 5 different ideas,
until we decide on one that is good enough.

siljrath wrote:
Xorg forked to XLibre
[ Goto pageGoto page: 1 ... 6, 7, 8 ] 175 replies, 630337 views. Started: Tue Jun 10, 2025 4:37 pm. Latest post: Fri Jul 11, 2025 6:01 pm

https://gpo.zugaina.org/Search?search=XLibre still says:
No Results Found

There is an overlay for Xlibre here: https://github.com/X11Libre/ports-gentoo

Post by **NeddySeagoon** » Sun Jul 13, 2025 9:46 am

stefan11111,

That's what prototyping is for.
You talk about it a bit. Write a few (incomplete) prototypes to evaluate.
Throw the prototypes away, then do the job properly.

It saves writing several complete solutions and throwing them all away because you don't like any of them.
It cuts down the talk too.

stefan11111 · Post by **stefan11111** » Mon Jul 14, 2025 5:10 pm

siljrath wrote:
Xorg forked to XLibre
[ Goto pageGoto page: 1 ... 6, 7, 8 ] 175 replies, 630337 views. Started: Tue Jun 10, 2025 4:37 pm. Latest post: Fri Jul 11, 2025 6:01 pm

https://gpo.zugaina.org/Search?search=XLibre still says:
No Results Found

The overlay is now in zugaina: https://gpo.zugaina.org/Search?search=xlibre
It should eventually be available in eselect reposiroty list, but I'm not sure when:
https://github.com/gentoo/api-gentoo-or ... 6838c1f689

Leonardo.b · Post by **Leonardo.b** » Sun Jul 20, 2025 11:53 am

stefan11111 wrote:I'd rather spend days debating how we should implement something, that write 5 different implementations of 5 different ideas,
until we decide on one that is good enough.

You make a good point.
I perfectly agree.

Perfectionism is when solutions are never "good enough".
Psychologically, it happens when parents set too high standards, so the child learns to cope with adult world in this way.

stefan11111 · Post by **stefan11111** » Thu Jul 24, 2025 11:19 am

stefan11111 wrote:
Leonardo.b wrote:I think there is an huge waste of energy in the open source community.
A wise man 10 hours discussion often is worth less than an average kid 10 minutes actually doing something (maybe poorly).
Sometimes those 'wise men' who talk a lot are also the 'average kids' that implement the stuff.
I'd rather spend days debating how we should implement something, that write 5 different implementations of 5 different ideas,
until we decide on one that is good enough.

siljrath wrote:
Xorg forked to XLibre
[ Goto pageGoto page: 1 ... 6, 7, 8 ] 175 replies, 630337 views. Started: Tue Jun 10, 2025 4:37 pm. Latest post: Fri Jul 11, 2025 6:01 pm

https://gpo.zugaina.org/Search?search=XLibre still says:
No Results Found

There is an overlay for Xlibre here: https://github.com/X11Libre/ports-gentoo

Overlay appears in eselect repository list now.

darkhog · Post by **darkhog** » Wed Nov 12, 2025 9:50 am

Hello. I am saying this as an Xlibre supporter. I do not think the Xlibre, at least as it is now, should be shipped by default by any distro. An experimental package for those brave enough to try it is great and should be encouraged, but it shouldn't be shipped by default. Thankfully it seems to be the case for Gentoo and most other distros which are packaging Xlibre.

Why do I think that way? Few reasons.

First of all, aside of Xnamespace (by all means, use Xlibre if you need it and know how to use it), Xlibre as it is now implements no noteworthy new features over Xorg and might introduce few bugs (especially around nVidia support due to the ABI stuff). I'd wait for stuff like VRR and HDR support to be in (which are being worked on behind the scenes to my knowledge, VRR being the main focus for now) before giving Xlibre a go if you're a casual Linux user.

Secondly, the Xlibre is still self-declared beta software which means that stuff that used to work before might break the next release. The cleanup and refactoring is needed to develop it further, yes, but it will be broken in the meantime or at the very least have a potential to become broken.

Overall we should encourage the development of Xlibre, but it shouldn't be anyone daily driver just yet.

Website · Post by **Zucca** » Sun Dec 28, 2025 9:30 pm

*Player 3 enters the game*

flexibeast · Post by **flexibeast** » Sun Dec 28, 2025 11:03 pm

Zucca wrote:*Player 3 enters the game*

This looks interesting indeed. Some selected quotes from the Phoenix X Server README:

Phoenix is a new X server, written from scratch in Zig (not a fork of Xorg server). This X server is designed to be a modern alternative to the Xorg server.

## Current state
Phoenix is not ready to be used yet. At the moment it can render simple applications that do GLX, EGL or Vulkan graphics (fully hardware accelerated) nested in an existing X server.
Running Phoenix nested will be the only supported mode until Phoenix has progressed more and can run real-world applications.

## Goals
### Simplicity
Be a simpler X server than the Xorg server by only supporting a subset of the X11 protocol, the features that are needed by relatively modern applications (applications written/updated in the last ~20 years).\
This includes _all_ software that _you_ use, even old gtk2 applications.\
Only relatively modern hardware (made/updated in the last ~15-20 years) which support linux drm and mesa gbm will be supported, and no server driver interface like the Xorg server. Just like how Wayland compositors work.

### Security
Be safer than the Xorg server by parsing protocol messages automatically.

### Improvements for modern technology
Support modern hardware better than the Xorg server, such as proper support for multiple monitors (different refresh rates, VRR - not a single framebuffer for the whole collection of displays) and technology like HDR.

### Improved graphics handling
No tearing by default and a built-in compositor. The compositor will get disabled if the user runs an external compositor (client application), such as picom or if the client runs a fullscreen application.\
The goal is to also have lower vsync/compositor latency than the Xorg server.

### New standards
New standards will be developed and documented, such as per-monitor DPI as randr properties.
Applications can use this property to scale their content to the specified DPI for the monitor they are on.

### Wayland compatibility
Some applications might only run on Wayland in the future. Such applications should be supported by either Phoenix supporting Wayland natively or by running
an external application that works as a bridge between Wayland and X11 (such as 12to11).

### Nested display server
Being able to run Phoenix nested under X11 or Wayland with hardware acceleration.
This is not only useful for debugging Phoenix but also for developers who want to test their window manager or compositor without restarting the display server they are running.\
Being able to run Phoenix under Wayland as an alternative Xwayland server would be a good option.

## Non-goals
### Replacing the Xorg server
The Xorg server will always support more features of the X11 protocol and wider range of hardware (especially older ones).

tld · Post by **tld** » Mon Dec 29, 2025 4:15 pm

Interesting indeed. Unless I'm somehow missing it, I don't see anything about support for X11 forwarding. That's one of my gripes about Wayland for sure.

Tom

Post by Hu » Mon Dec 29, 2025 4:36 pm

X11 forwarding is not strictly a property of the X server. Rather, X11 forwarding arises because X11 clients use a socket to exchange data with the server, and a socket is easily forwarded between systems. Assuming Phoenix binds an X11 socket in the usual way, which is almost certainly required if it wants to support a wide base of existing X clients, then it should be amenable to forwarding without any special handling in the server.

As I understand it, Wayland strongly prefers using shared memory, which is not practical to forward efficiently. I don't know how Waypipe gets forwarding working.

wildhorse · Post by **wildhorse** » Tue Jan 06, 2026 1:59 pm

A few months ago, Felipe Contreras did a brief analysis of the xorg repository and posted a summary on youtube. His analysis is reproducible. Listen carefully to what he is saying.

Analyzing Xorg neglect and XLibre slander
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CdATnuTdUk

Some of the statements in this thread are not supported by his analysis.

Post by Hu » Tue Jan 06, 2026 2:28 pm

It's unfortunate that he chose to use a YouTube video as a delivery mechanism. I am mildly curious about his findings, but not curious enough to expend the effort to extract them from the video. Such an analysis seems much better suited to a blog post, where it could readily be searched, quoted, and linked.

Website · Post by **Zucca** » Tue Jan 06, 2026 4:40 pm

Well... The video description is "In this video I show how Xorg has been neglecting releases and contributions for 4 years now, as well as some lies people have spread about XLibre.".
So I'd guess it's at lest somewhat biased. I'll try to watch it later.

With all these projects that are implementing the X11 protocol... I'd still go with Xorg. Meanwhile I'd wait for Phoenix to mature (if it ever does). To me it seems like a lot more work to fix Xorg than to create a completely new display server from todays perspective.

Opinions... I know. Everybody has them.

wildhorse · Post by **wildhorse** » Tue Jan 06, 2026 4:52 pm

Xorg neglect and XLibre slander
https://felipec.wordpress.com/2025/07/08/xorg-neglect/

b11n · Post by **b11n** » Tue Jan 06, 2026 8:49 pm

wildhorse wrote:Listen carefully to what he is saying.

You first.

wildhorse wrote:Some of the statements in this thread are not supported by his analysis.

Which ones?

From the title, it sounds like there's some conspiracy afoot. I highly recommend starting at the bottom of the linked blog post:

Conclusion

I’m not going to assert any conspiracy theory.

…and only then watch the 20 minute youtube video if you're having trouble sleeping. There's nothing in there. I mean, there's a lot in there, a lot of nothing. 20 minutes of it. Mostly breathing.

It's not hard to judge what Xlibre really is, if you know what to look for. Politics aside, Xlibre is basically just a couple of guys (no, really, look), one of whom doesn't even have a good grasp of C. That's pretty important for this kind of project.

X might be bad, and Wayland might not be good, but Xlibre is a whole 'nother ball game.

stefan11111 · Post by **stefan11111** » Tue Jan 06, 2026 10:23 pm

b11n wrote: It's not hard to judge what Xlibre really is, if you know what to look for. Politics aside, Xlibre is basically just a couple of guys (no, really, look)

Xorg also has a fairly small core dev team, I don't see the issue.

b11n wrote: one of whom doesn't even have a good grasp of C. That's pretty important for this kind of project.

A good programmer never makes silly mistakes?

b11n wrote: X might be bad, and Wayland might not be good, but Xlibre is a whole 'nother ball game.

Did you give it a try and had problems with it that are not on Xorg too?
If so, file an issue, we'll look into it.

EDIT: If you have an issue that also happens on Xorg, you should also file an issue.

b11n · Post by **b11n** » Tue Jan 06, 2026 11:06 pm

stefan11111 wrote:Xorg also has a fairly small core dev team, I don't see the issue.

A project that large which runs in that security context really ought to have a lot of eyeballs on it, hopefully a few with a proven reputation (the good kind, not the one metux has). Xorg does, Xlibre doesn't. I definitely see an issue with it. Sorry, but the only reason there's any project at all is because it's standing on the shoulders of giants. Metux has bitten off more than he can chew, and the small horde that has gathered can't offer much except bikeshedding the README.md and absolutely insane pull requests.

stefan11111 wrote:A good programmer never makes silly mistakes?

From metux' first comment in the thread listed, I'm inclined to believe this was a learning moment for him, not a simple error. It is in keeping with the extreme hubris already demonstrated by him. It's made even more embarrassing on the back of his grandiose comments on DEI. Just take the L.

stefan11111 wrote:Did you give it a try … ?

You want me to install a privileged process despite my misgivings, give it a try? Sounds pretty DEI to me. Like brigading distro's forums throwing hissy-fits demanding they include you and maintaining a sad list of all the ones said no and were mean. I thought you guys were against that? Why such a fuss about distros not wanting to deal with a guy who's proven himself to be very hard to work with?

Sorry fella, I don't need the lesson I'm gonna get if I go anywhere near this project, and I don't have the problems you're trying to solve. I'm just some guy who writes about what's going on in Open Source, what's good and, well, what's bad.

stefan11111 · Post by **stefan11111** » Wed Jan 07, 2026 12:26 am

b11n wrote: Sorry, but the only reason there's any project at all is because it's standing on the shoulders of giants.

That's true about everything, computer-related or not.
Why start from scratch if a lot of work was already done?

b11n wrote: Metux has bitten off more than he can chew, and the small horde that has gathered can't offer much except bikeshedding the README.md and absolutely insane pull requests.

As of writing this, there are 24 commits it the README's history.
There are hundreds of commits made to Xlibre by people other than metux.

b11n wrote: You want me to install a privileged process despite my misgivings, give it a try?
How do you know that it's bad then?

b11n wrote: and I don't have the problems you're trying to solve.

What problems am I trying to solve?

b11n wrote: I'm just some guy who writes about what's going on in Open Source, what's good and, well, what's bad.

As a journalist?

b11n · Post by **b11n** » Wed Jan 07, 2026 12:59 am

stefan11111 wrote:What problems am I trying to solve?

I thought you'd know, you're the second biggest contributor to the project. I am not going to have a debate with you about why I don't want to run Xlibre.