systemd discussion: agree to disagree

[steve_v]

entr

Strangely, I have failed to spot that one from here under my rock. Thank you, it looks handy.

You come across as very immature yet you appear to be in this forum since 2002. Perhaps 'axl' was originally an older brother or even a father?

I have been wondering at that, there's the incongruous use of txt-speak and fascination with software we have all been aware of for years too, as if it was a new and exciting discovery. Most odd.
I'd certainly expect such an established user to be more open-minded about others viewpoints and software choices as well, perhaps this is an impostor?

[Yamakuzure]

Well, the "Windows Event Log" you need the "Windows Event Viewer" for, makes perfect sense, as those are generated all over the place with tons of data you want to be able to effectively filter in a GUI world.

Really? In what universe? The Windows event log and event viewer are a fucking nightmare. I'll take a world where everything writes to text logs any day. I can filter with commands that have been around for over 40 years.

Tom

As you so whole heartily misunderstood my post by simply cutting it down to something you can bash on (*): In the fucking universe where Windows System Administrators do not have a clue of the "commands that have been around for over 40 years" which you and I know.

Look, I hate binary logs and never stated something else. But it is not my fault that not every computer user on this planet knows what you use.
Besides, not everything is crap just because you do not use and/or like it.
The Windows Event Log has been around for over two decades, too. And you are right. It is a nightmare. Still it at least enforces some standardization which is necessary because nobody intervened early enough to stop it. (**)

And no, I do not like systemd either. I have seen it brick servers in ways which were not even possible without it. So again, thank you very much for jumping down my throat for nothing.

(*) Point was: Microsoft isn't to be blamed for systemd devs stupidity. They had a reason, systemd has not.
(**) Which, sadly, seems to be true in the case of that idiotic binary journald, too.

[steve_v]

As you so whole heartily misunderstood my post by simply cutting it down to something you can bash on

I may well be guilty of the same, for which I apologise.

[Tony0945]

RE: Windows Event Logs

As a Windows user the biggest problem that I have with them is that the messages cannot be cut and pasted into a search engine so that the user can get some amplification of what's wrong and how to fix it. i.e. What's error 50? What might be causing it?

On Linux, I do this all the time with the output of dmesg and /var/log/messages. It's very helpful.

Regarding the design, I'm sure that the derogatory comments here are justified.


On Windows 2000 there was setting whereby instead of a dumb icon you can see the progress messages in real time. This proves the system is still booting (often half a minute or longer) and when it stops you can see where it was and a message. This was removed in XP. I'm 90% sure the screen logging occurs, but it's invisible, replaced by dumb moving shapes. I guess if the shapes stop moving you can assume it crashed. In what subsystem? Nobody knows. Just reinstall the OS and all your software, hoping you have data backup.

[tld]

Regarding the design, I'm sure that the derogatory comments here are justified.

That was sort of my point. I'd argue that Microsoft's original decision to log in a binary format was just as poor as systemd's...especially given how important it it to read logs on a system that can't even boot. That's why it never happened in unix.

Tom

[pjp]

Given that this thread was the first place you posted after almost 5 months of inactivity, you chose an interesting approach to "engaging" with others on the subject. How does that compare against your standards of virtue and honor?

to be fair I left unhappy because of this. and returned to see how things fare... and this thread was on the first page. and also towards my old stint on these here forums, I lost interest with gentoo in general and became consumed, again, by the systemd issue. I really dont know why you throw that in my face. I will be leaving again pretty soon. I just briefly returned to offer some apologies if required.

Because your first post upon returning seemed intended to antagonize and elicit an in-kind response.

Especially when it's one that is not so politely inviting me to leave.

If you're referring to my post, I'm not in any way asking you to leave. I was wondering why you came back to seemingly antagonize others in this thread.

[Ant P.]

Perhaps alert us to some wonderful feature of Systemd that we failed to notice.

ok. fine. i'll try this.

since I use gentoo extensively, like many other people, I looked into distributed compiling. Like many others. You end up with distcc and crossdev... like many others did. by the third time it hurts my brain to tell my fingers to write it. ok.

watch -n1 "journalctl -S -60 -U -0 -u distccd | grep COMPILE_OK | gawk '{print \$14;}' | cut -d ":" -f2 | sed -e "s/ms\$//g" | gawk '{ sum+=\$1; } END { if (NR > 0) { print int(sum/NR) "/" NR; } else { print "0/0"; } }'"

do that in openrc :)

distccmon-text 1

[Hu]

RE: Windows Event Logs

As a Windows user the biggest problem that I have with them is that the messages cannot be cut and pasted into a search engine so that the user can get some amplification of what's wrong and how to fix it. i.e. What's error 50? What might be causing it?

Yes, but that's the fault of the people who chose to write unhelpful strings in their logs instead of writing for a technical audience (the technical support division, if nothing else). Linux tools can write unhelpful logs (but tend to get abandoned or fixed because nobody likes bad logs) as text. Windows programs can (but surprisingly often do not) write good logs to the Windows Event Viewer.

On Linux, I do this all the time with the output of dmesg and /var/log/messages. It's very helpful.

I attribute this to enlightened self-interest. The people responsible for those logs recognized that writing quality messages would help them in the future, whether through better bug reports or less time spent explaining the real problem to people who sought help.

[Tony0945]

I attribute this to enlightened self-interest. The people responsible for those logs recognized that writing quality messages would help them in the future, whether through better bug reports or less time spent explaining the real problem to people who sought help.

True. But what I meant was putting the message string into google or DuckDuckGo or Ask.com. Usually, someone else has asked about the message and I can find an explanation and probable cure on line. Many times it's an old Gentoo forum thread.

But also, as you say, numerical exactness like PCI numbers and driver names help a lot. A typical message in Windows might be (number made up)
"Error 2340 - a device has failed to initialize" or (real error) "Event 50 - The RDP Protocol component x224 detected an error in the protocol stream and has disconnected the client" i.e. something went wrong with Remote Desktop Viewer, although I suppose "x224" might be a clue.

[axl]

distccmon-text 1

did that ever work? I've read threads of other people actually making it work in the end. tbh, i didn't. I made my own way.

EDIT: or put it another way. i'm too incompetent for some reason to make your solution work. therefor i wen't with what i had available and worked.

[Jaglover]

Debian systemd maintainer is taking a break https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/ ... 41971.html

Meanwhile Devuan is gaining supporters.

[pjp]

Interesting, but unfortunately terse and not helpful to people who don't already know what is meant by his statement.

This might help.
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments ... down_over/

[axl]

net.ifnames=0 is such a easy fix. why bother about it?

PS already had this, before figuring out other people have a problem with this. but it's an easy fix.

PPS also think it was in systemd-2.1something when they decided we're not gonna have ethernet connections with custom names. not sure it's the same issue, but... tbh, on this issue alone I sit with you guys. still didn't figure for myself why the interface rename. there must be a technical reason at the root of all things I keep telling myself. maybe for some company. but I dont exactly know why. seems stupid to me too.

[Jaglover]

Interesting, but unfortunately terse and not helpful to people who don't already know what is meant by his statement.

This might help.
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments ... down_over/

This must be the straw that broke the camel's back. Thus, I'd say it is not very important what straw it was exactly.

[pjp]

But this is someone who maintained support for systemd, not solely a user who chooses to use something else. So the final straw appears to be a different context, which I think is potentially important. As a hypothetical user I care primarily about change that only causes me headaches (it does not solve a problem I have) and security issues. If those two issues were to be resolved, I'd probably take the path of least resistance (to reduce change that only caused headaches). If the context of the final straw is likely to increases the chances I'll have either of those problems, then it becomes very important.

[sao98021]

this escalated in a... moderately controlled and consistent pace

[Tony0945]

net.ifnames=0 is such a easy fix. why bother about it?

Generally I agree. I have it built right into my kernel. However, this was a server. It might have multiple interfaces which can change on every boot.
The udev rule is good for that case.

[tld]

Meanwhile Devuan is gaining supporters.

I had actually never even tried Debian in the past. Our company used to deliver our product as a CentOS 6 VM. When we needed to modernize it post systemd, no way were we going with CentOS 7. We went with Devuan Jessie and honestly it's been awesome...a great lean, mean headless server that does the job just great. I suspect that the next time we need something newer it'll be a newer version of Devuan.

That made me realize what a nice server distro Debian was and why it was the scene of one of the biggest of the systemd battles. Insane that they went the system route.

[axl]

this escalated in a... moderately controlled and consistent pace

Isn't that a good sign?

[axl]

question... for everybody.

did yall know daniel robbins funtoo is systemd free?

[asturm]

Probably everyone participating in this thread is aware of it.

[axl]

yesterday that was false. I didn't even know daniel left gentoo. my fault.

[NeddySeagoon]

axl,

Seach these fora. There is a list of systemd free distros.

[axl]

axl,

Seach these fora. There is a list of systemd free distros.

thanks neddy, but I aint looking for one. If I was, I would know how to make my own.

[axl]

I was just shocked to see Daniel on facebook doing promotion for a distro I never heard about. And it was an anti-systemd thread and I had a moment... wait... what? who. nooo. cannot be the same guy. Turns out, i've been living under a rock. I didn't know.