The Politics of systemd Part 3

[axl]

My points are: competence beats any distro, linux is changing as a whole and all distro's finally agree on something which is good for the users, and finally gentoo should at least in the official tree keep up with everyone else and should not be the only oddity that supports openrc out of the box with huge efforts on the part of the devs. No other distro did that to their devs.

What a huge pile a baloney. Your bald assertion that systemd is "something which is good for the users" is completely unsubstantiated and frankly, a load of BS.

I agree. In addition to using Gentoo with OpenRC/ConsoleKit, I use various distributions with systemd (mainly Sabayon, Ubuntu and Lubuntu). I have more hassle with systemd. For example, I spent days trying to get systemd on my family's PC to launch a backup script at shutdown and wait for the script to run to completion before halting and powering down the PC. There are umpteen posts on the Web asking how to run a script at shutdown and/or reboot in distributions that use systemd. The unit files that most of them end up using appear to work, but only because the job is short enough that it completes before systemd reaches the end of the shutdown and/or reboot process. Take a look at the Arch Linux Forums thread controlling systemd shutdown order started by a user trying to find a way to get systemd to launch a script at shutdown (or reboot) and wait until the script completes before stopping user processes. She never got a proper answer, only that 'it is possible'.

It is possible to make systemd wait for a long-running script to run to completion at shutdown -- I got a working unit file and Bash script combination in the end -- but it isn't as simple as it would seem to write a unit file to stop systemd doing so many things in parallel, and not that straightforward to discriminate between reboot and shutdown in systemd, either. On the other hand, with OpenRC you can put a Bash script in /etc/local.d/ that includes a check on the runlevel and it will be launched and will run to completion [1]. (In case anyone is wondering, you can't drop this sort of script in /lib/systemd/system-shutdown/ in a systemd distribution, because scripts in that directory are launched late in the shutdown process, after file systems have been mounted read-only.)

[1] Running a shell script at shutdown only (not at reboot) – a comparison between OpenRC and systemd

I have to commend you on your post. A real challenge. It's imho an excellent question and... I do not know how to answer it. At the moment. But I'll go look into it coz it's exciting as hell.

If I can't answer in 3 days from now, I'll return and admit defeat.

[axl]

First thing, I went to sources. And first thing I found is in NEWS file. from version 236 it says:

systemctl gained a new --dry-run switch that shows what would be done
instead of doing it, and is currently supported by the shutdown and
sleep verbs.

so you can test without actually shutting down.

second. went to man systemctl. and noticed something else.

-i, --ignore-inhibitors
When system shutdown or a sleep state is requested, ignore inhibitor locks. Applications can establish inhibitor locks to avoid that certain important operations (such as CD burning or suchlike) are interrupted by system
shutdown or a sleep state. Any user may take these locks and privileged users may override these locks. If any locks are taken, shutdown and sleep state requests will normally fail (regardless of whether privileged or
not) and a list of active locks is printed. However, if --ignore-inhibitors is specified, the locks are ignored and not printed, and the operation attempted anyway, possibly requiring additional privileges.


third went on to read man page for systemd-inhibit. and that is pretty self explanatory.

Are you satisfied?

[mike155]

For example, I spent days trying to get systemd on my family's PC to launch a backup script at shutdown and wait for the script to run to completion before halting and powering down the PC.

What about the last answer in the following article: https://superuser.com/questions/1016827 ... th-systemd?

[axl]

What a huge pile a baloney. Your bald assertion that systemd is "something which is good for the users" is completely unsubstantiated and frankly, a load of BS.

I also wanted to address this. Most of you must be familiar with the meme "install gentoo". Like the hardest thing you can do as far as linux goes. And some users are brave enough and actually try. My proof comes from youtube. Go and search for gentoo. Look at the videos. Read the comments.

20 years ago it was painfuly obvious that linux had no users. only admins. U had a linux, you were probably root and in charge of that system. and you were probably a professional and that was your job.

now... there's a growing group of people out there, that are not professionals, and still are linux users. just throw a search on youtube for gentoo. it's self explanatory in my opinion. and it's not bs. at least not voluntary. I've used gentoo as my primary OS for 20 years now. it's normal for me to want my distro to be as popular and as loved as much as i love it. nothing wrong with that. I hope.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Are you satisfied?

No. Re-read my post; I have already solved the problem. I suggest you try your approach in Lubuntu to see if it actually works with an external USB HDD and a script like the one in the following post to back up the home directories of a single-seat, multi-user system: Backing up users’ home directories in a Linux installation that uses systemd?

What about the last answer in the following article: https://superuser.com/questions/1016827 ... th-systemd?

One of the many unit files I tried that didn't achieve the desired result in with systemd in Lubuntu on a single-seat, multi-user system. See the link in my earlier post -- and also the above link -- for a solution that works with systemd in Lubuntu.

[axl]

Are you satisfied?

Nope. Re-read my post. I have already solved the problem. Also, why don't you try your approach in Lubuntu to see if it actually works with an external USB HDD and a script like the one in the following post to back up the home directories of a single-seat, multi-user system: Backing up users’ home directories in a Linux installation that uses systemd?

What about the last answer in the following article: https://superuser.com/questions/1016827 ... th-systemd?

One of the many unit files I tried that didn't achieve the desired result in with systemd in Lubuntu on a single-seat, multi-user system. See the link in my earlier post -- and also the above link -- for a solution that works with systemd in Lubuntu.

We are a gentoo community. Why would I try lubuntu?

[Fitzcarraldo]

Are you satisfied?

Nope. Re-read my post. I have already solved the problem. Also, why don't you try your approach in Lubuntu to see if it actually works with an external USB HDD and a script like the one in the following post to back up the home directories of a single-seat, multi-user system: Backing up users’ home directories in a Linux installation that uses systemd?

What about the last answer in the following article: https://superuser.com/questions/1016827 ... th-systemd?

One of the many unit files I tried that didn't achieve the desired result in with systemd in Lubuntu on a single-seat, multi-user system. See the link in my earlier post -- and also the above link -- for a solution that works with systemd in Lubuntu.

We are a gentoo community. Why would I try lubuntu?

Because it uses systemd, and that is one of the distributions I use that only comes with systemd, and you claim systemd is the bee's knees. As I mentioned previously, I don't use systemd in Gentoo; I use OpenRC.

[axl]

Because it uses systemd, and that is one of the distributions I use that only comes with systemd, and you claim systemd is the bee's knees.

I claimed systemd suits me fine. That's what I ever claimed. Based on my experience.

I never asked anyone to install another distro, least of all an ubuntu variant. I mean ubuntu is bad enough in my book, put a variant on top and is twice as bad. It's not even a clean debian. It's debian with eyecandy. No, variant of debiant with eyecandy. Lightweight debian with eyecandy. I'm thoroughly amazed people use this stuff. But like I mentioned in another post, people be n00bs.

In my minds eye, it's been 20 years since I used my last binary distro (raspbian excluded). And I could (and did, look in gnome without systemd) run an openrc system, because i have for like over 15 years in gentoo alone, and also can and am running a systemd system since it came out. Can do both, prefer systemd.

lubuntu:))

[Fitzcarraldo]

Because it uses systemd, and that is one of the distributions I use that only comes with systemd, and you claim systemd is the bee's knees.

I claimed systemd suits me fine. That's what I ever claimed. Based on my experience.

Actually you claimed a lot more than that:

My points are: competence beats any distro, linux is changing as a whole and all distro's finally agree on something which is good for the users, and finally gentoo should at least in the official tree keep up with everyone else and should not be the only oddity that supports openrc out of the box with huge efforts on the part of the devs. No other distro did that to their devs.

This thread is about systemd. Not just systemd specifically in Gentoo and ignoring systemd on other distributions. You yourself referred to "all distro's". You can't have your cake and eat it.

[virtguru]

Most of you must be familiar with the meme "install gentoo"

No whats the meme , please enlighten us.

[krinn]

I never asked anyone to install another distro, least of all an ubuntu variant.

again, the example concept : he ask you to try doing that with a systemd distro ; he pickup lubuntu certainly because he do use this distro, no more.
so if you want see the proof of concept, use lunbuntu or whatever distro you wish but with systemd ; and try to reproduce the exercise he ask for: having a script run (and finish its task) when system is going down using systemd.

[axl]

I never asked anyone to install another distro, least of all an ubuntu variant.

again, the example concept : he ask you to try doing that with a systemd distro ; he pickup lubuntu certainly because he do use this distro, no more.
so if you want see the proof of concept, use lunbuntu or whatever distro you wish but with systemd ; and try to reproduce the exercise he ask for: having a script run (and finish its task) when system is going down using systemd.

how do I know it's systemd and not lubuntu? Why are we even talking about that on gentoo forums?

[krinn]

how do I know it's systemd and not lubuntu? Why are we even talking about that on gentoo forums?

Either by testing yourself as you use systemd, or assume he is saying the truth.
This thread is about systemd ; don't you have systemd in gentoo?

[axl]

Most of you must be familiar with the meme "install gentoo"

No whats the meme , please enlighten us.

Is it so hard to google install gentoo reddit?

[axl]

how do I know it's systemd and not lubuntu? Why are we even talking about that on gentoo forums?

Either by testing yourself as you use systemd, or assume he is saying the truth.
This thread is about systemd ; don't you have systemd in gentoo?

I do. But you're beating a dead horse. He raised a non-issue that he already solved as an argument against systemd which obviously doesn't stand because he solved it, I did, and mike did.

[Fitzcarraldo]

how do I know it's systemd and not lubuntu? Why are we even talking about that on gentoo forums?

Either by testing yourself as you use systemd, or assume he is saying the truth.
This thread is about systemd ; don't you have systemd in gentoo?

I do. But you're beating a dead horse. He raised a non-issue that he already solved as an argument against systemd which obviously doesn't stand because he solved it, I did, and mike did.

Taking your last point first, re-read my ealier post, specifically:

What about the last answer in the following article: https://superuser.com/questions/1016827 ... th-systemd?

One of the many unit files I tried that didn't achieve the desired result in with systemd in Lubuntu on a single-seat, multi-user system. See the link in my earlier post -- and also the above link -- for a solution that works with systemd in Lubuntu.

So, no, 'mike' did not solve it.

As to your first point, you are purposely ignoring the thrust of my earlier post. Yes, I solved it, but the point is: a) it was not trivial to solve it, b) it was easier to solve it in an installation using OpenRC; c) many other systemd users have had the same problem in various distributions (Google it), ergo your point about the superiority of systemd over OpenRC is fallacious. I have actually implemented this on a single-seat, multi-user installation. Until you implement this yourself and show us that it is easier and better in systemd than OpenRC, all you are doing is talking the talk

EDIT: For the avoidance of doubt, I have updated my blog post to make it clear that I also tried systemd-inhibit while implementing the backup to disk script, and it did not work in this case. Looking at the manual page for systemd-inhibit it can be used to execute a program (the example given is 'systemd-inhibit wodim foobar.iso'), however I found that systemd-inhibit did not prevent systemd from shutting down before the backup Bash script had run to completion.

[i4dnf]

ergo your point about the superiority of systemd over OpenRC is fallacious.

But, but, ...
...it haz shineh lil' QR kodez...

[axl]

Either by testing yourself as you use systemd, or assume he is saying the truth.
This thread is about systemd ; don't you have systemd in gentoo?

I do. But you're beating a dead horse. He raised a non-issue that he already solved as an argument against systemd which obviously doesn't stand because he solved it, I did, and mike did.

Taking your last point first, re-read my ealier post, specifically:

What about the last answer in the following article: https://superuser.com/questions/1016827 ... th-systemd?

One of the many unit files I tried that didn't achieve the desired result in with systemd in Lubuntu on a single-seat, multi-user system. See the link in my earlier post -- and also the above link -- for a solution that works with systemd in Lubuntu.

So, no, 'mike' did not solve it.

"specifically" did you try "RequiresMountsFor=/mnt/BACKUP /home"? Did you try that?

As to your first point, you are purposely ignoring the thrust of my earlier post. Yes, I solved it, but the point is: a) it was not trivial to solve it, b) it was easier to solve it an installation using OpenRC; c) many other systemd users have had the same problem (Google it), ergo your point about the superiority of systemd over OpenRC is fallacious. I have actually implemented this one a single-seat, multi-user installation. Until you implement this yourself and show us that it is easier and better in systemd than OpenRC, all you are doing is talking the talk.

ok. not like we both did that. and in less time then it took you. but ok.

Also the underlying issue of backup at shutdown... really really smart computer architecture. What happens if your electricity is interrupted after 30 days of uptime? Just wondering

[Fitzcarraldo]

"specifically" did you try "RequiresMountsFor=/mnt/BACKUP /home"? Did you try that?

Yes. And, no, that does not work by itself (see my blog post). This is a single-seat, multi-user system. It uses Udisks2 (also from freedesktop.org, like systemd) which mounts automatically the external USB HDD on different mount points for each logged-in user, and any user can shutdown the system. If you are not going to actually show me empirically that you can achieve this specific task more easily in systemd, there is no point me discussing this further with you, because you are just arguing for the sake of it without demonstrating anything concrete.

[axl]

"specifically" did you try "RequiresMountsFor=/mnt/BACKUP /home"? Did you try that?

Yes. And, no, that does not work by itself (see my blog post). This is a single-seat, multi-user system. It uses Udisks2 (also from freedesktop.org, like systemd) which mounts the external USB HDD on different mount points for each user, and any user can shutdown the system. If you are not going to actually show me empirically that you can achieve this specific task more easily in systemd, there is no point me discussing this further with you, because you are just arguing for the sake of it without demonstrating anything concrete.

ok. ok. so one computer, multiple users. I'm assuming not all of them at a time. or at least 2 at a time. U're talking about a simple computer with multiple people logging in with their own account and password? if that is so, i understand up to this point.

if not, let's consider the alternative. multiple users logged at one time, with multiple usb harddisks, and any one of them could reset the system.

still, if you are FORCED to use systemd, and for some reason are FORCED to accept random users resetting the system randomly without talking to the other users even though apparently they all share a relatively small space since they can all connect their usb drives... AGAIN man systemd-inhibit. it's right there. Does exactly what you ask. Inhibit shutdown/sleep if you write a cd or perform a backup or something like that.

also, could you show me where your blog is and what post you talk about?

[Fitzcarraldo]

"specifically" did you try "RequiresMountsFor=/mnt/BACKUP /home"? Did you try that?

Yes. And, no, that does not work by itself (see my blog post). This is a single-seat, multi-user system. It uses Udisks2 (also from freedesktop.org, like systemd) which mounts the external USB HDD on different mount points for each user, and any user can shutdown the system. If you are not going to actually show me empirically that you can achieve this specific task more easily in systemd, there is no point me discussing this further with you, because you are just arguing for the sake of it without demonstrating anything concrete.

ok. ok. so one computer, multiple users. I'm assuming not all of them at a time. or at least 2 at a time. U're talking about a simple computer with multiple people logging in with their own account and password? if that is so, i understand up to this point.

if not, let's consider the alternative. multiple users logged at one time, with multiple usb harddisks, and any one of them could reset the system.

still, if you are FORCED to use systemd, and for some reason are FORCED to accept random users resetting the system randomly without talking to the other users even though apparently they all share a relatively small space since they can all connect they usb drives... AGAIN man systemd-inhibit. it's right there. Does exactly what you ask. Inhibit reset if you write a cd or perform a backup.

also, could you show me where your blog is and what post you talk about?

Single-seat, multi-user (at least five), so any of those users could have a logged-in session simultaneously, but only one user at a time (single-seat) can be using her session, having used 'Switch User' to access her account. And the users may not all be physically near the machine, i.e. not all contactable, when any one user shuts down (a fact of life). See my signature on my posts in this thread for the link to my blog. See earlier replies to you for the links to my two blog posts regarding this task, especially the Bash script and unit file in the second of those posts, which make the use case and scope clear. When I tried systemd-inhibit in Lubuntu when implementing the back-up regime six months ago, it only worked when using an application, not for a non-trivial Bash script to perform the various tasks required for the machine in question. To make your test closer to the machine in question, I suggest you connect a 1TiB external USB HDD to your machine, create at least five users, implement the Bash script from the aforementioned second blog post, making the necessary changes to device names and user names, login all users and fill each of their home directories with several hundred MiB of files so that the Bash script takes 10 to 15 minutes to complete when launched manually via sudo, then Switch User to any user who does not have UID 1000 and shutdown the machine. And preferably use one of the *buntus, Mint, Arch, Red Hat or another of the distributions that you are familiar with that use systemd, Udisks2, etc. I believe they could have larger user bases than Gentoo.

[axl]

Yes. And, no, that does not work by itself (see my blog post). This is a single-seat, multi-user system. It uses Udisks2 (also from freedesktop.org, like systemd) which mounts the external USB HDD on different mount points for each user, and any user can shutdown the system. If you are not going to actually show me empirically that you can achieve this specific task more easily in systemd, there is no point me discussing this further with you, because you are just arguing for the sake of it without demonstrating anything concrete.

ok. ok. so one computer, multiple users. I'm assuming not all of them at a time. or at least 2 at a time. U're talking about a simple computer with multiple people logging in with their own account and password? if that is so, i understand up to this point.

if not, let's consider the alternative. multiple users logged at one time, with multiple usb harddisks, and any one of them could reset the system.

still, if you are FORCED to use systemd, and for some reason are FORCED to accept random users resetting the system randomly without talking to the other users even though apparently they all share a relatively small space since they can all connect they usb drives... AGAIN man systemd-inhibit. it's right there. Does exactly what you ask. Inhibit reset if you write a cd or perform a backup.

also, could you show me where your blog is and what post you talk about?

Single-seat, multi-user (at least five), so any of those users could have a logged-in session simultaneously, but only one user at a time (single-seat) can be using her session, having used 'Switch User' to access her account. And the users may not all be physically near the machine, i.e. not all contactable, when any one user shuts down (a fact of life). See my signature on my posts in this thread for the link to my blog. See earlier replies to you for the links to my two blog posts regarding this task, especially the Bash script and unit file in the second of those posts, which make the use case and scope clear. When I tried systemd-inhibit in Lubuntu when implementing the back-up regime six months ago, it only worked when using an application, not for a non-trivial Bash script to perform the various tasks required for the machine in question. I suggest you connect a 1TiB external USB HDD to your machine, create five users, implement the Bash script from the aforementioned second blog post, making the necessary changes to device names and user names, login all users and fill each of their home directories with several hundred MiB of files so that the Bash script takes 10 to 15 minutes to complete when launched manually via sudo, then Switch User to any user who does not have UID 1000 and shutdown the machine.

Convoluted and complicated and I feel for you brother. What else could I say?

I'm thankful for my setup. And especially to my users.

I can relate to everything you said, except that last one part. backup on shutdown. backup where and why? and why not backup on mount or umount? teach your users to umount. and use a udev rule to backup at umount. don't allow backup blindly, any device at any time. ask your users to tell you which devices they are going to use and want to be backed up. take their characteristics, move em in /etc/udev/rules.d


just suggestions

[krinn]

Single-seat, multi-user (at least five), so any of those users could have a logged-in session simultaneously, but only one user at a time (single-seat) can be using her session

Just like any all purpose family computer use by all members. It seems pretty easy to get this.

[axl]

Single-seat, multi-user (at least five), so any of those users could have a logged-in session simultaneously, but only one user at a time (single-seat) can be using her session

Just like any all purpose family computer use by all members. It seems pretty easy to get this.

I am trying. I am really really trying.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Convoluted and complicated and I feel for you brother. What else could I say?

I'm thankful for my setup. And especially to my users.

I can relate to everything you said, except that last one part. backup on shutdown. backup where and why? and why not backup on mount or umount? teach your users to umount. and use a udev rule to backup at umount. don't allow backup blindly, any device at any time. ask your users to tell you which devices they are going to use and want to be backed up. take their characteristics, move em in /etc/udev/rules.d


just suggestions

That doesn't answer the original point, though, does it?