Thou shalt not discuss competence: shoot the messenger

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Post by **asturm** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:58 pm

steveL, why do you hate so much?

hasufell · Post by **hasufell** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:01 pm

genstorm wrote:steveL, why do you hate so much?

It is probably because he feels powerless, although he might be right with his opinion in some cases. That's opensource for you. It can be very frustrating indeed and it changes how people behave.

Increasing the rant-level can be necessary to catch peoples attention sometimes, but making it your default tone... usually does not go well and can even change your perception to a point where you don't really understand others anymore.

krinn · Post by **krinn** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:50 pm

hasufell wrote:Uhm, first of all you shouldn't speak for other people when you don't know their opinion.

I think everyone (see i'm doing generalization again, but in case they need) knows clearly your opinion.
What people may not understand is why a respectful member of the community (a gentoo dev) is acting like a child?

Tony0945 · Post by **Tony0945** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:56 pm

hasufell wrote:
genstorm wrote:steveL, why do you hate so much?
It is probably because he feels powerless, although he might be right with his opinion in some cases. That's opensource for you. It can be very frustrating indeed and it changes how people behave.

Increasing the rant-level can be necessary to catch peoples attention sometimes, but making it your default tone... usually does not go well and can even change your perception to a point where you don't really understand others anymore.

I believe you (hasufell) are pouring gasoline on the flames and thus contributing to the flame war.

Naib · Post by **Naib** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:08 pm

Thats not the only concern... All who have participated in these internal arguments (and the moderator's via inaction...) are helping to facilitate burying valid technical comments against systemd/kdbus & further discussion around alternatives & the needed direction... That is all being buried in vitriol & act as an enabler for the proponents of systemd to dismiss such citations...

Please, all who have taken part in these childish bickering, take a stand, accept the ovation as you are helping perpetuate the mess that is systemd...

Tony0945 · Post by **Tony0945** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:54 pm

Naib wrote:Thats not the only concern... All who have participated in these internal arguments (and the moderator's via inaction...) are helping to facilitate burying valid technical comments against systemd/kdbus & further discussion around alternatives & the needed direction... That is all being buried in vitriol & act as an enabler for the proponents of systemd to dismiss such citations...

Please, all who have taken part in these childish bickering, take a stand, accept the ovation as you are helping perpetuate the mess that is systemd...

Very good point, Naib. Let's try to not call each other liars and other hot button words. If one claims that another one has lied, at least post the full quote and demonstrate that the accused is deliberately saying a falsehood. There is a difference between a lie, a falsehood, and an opinion. For those of limited English capability, allow me to demonstrate.

1. a lie - I (tony0945) am the President of the United States.

2. a falsehood - 2 + 2 = 5

3. an opinion - The CIA assassinated President Kennedy.

An opinion is an unprovable statement that may or may not be true.

A falsehood is an untrue statement.

A lie is a deliberately untrue statement meant to deceive.

When posting, let's stop and consider whether we should say "that's not true" or "that's false" rather than "you're lying"

In this context, SteveL has every right to take umbrage at being accused of lying. Ulenrich has overreacted to the claim that he is a Red Hat employee unless he has definite proof that SteveL has knowledge that he is not a Red Hat employee.

For both of you, this pie fight is very embarrassing to the rest of us. I'm aware that there are deeper more political currents here. But I think I speak for many (possibly a falsehood, definitely not a lie, and definitely an opinion) when I say I choose to not get involved in the uglier side of Gentoo.

hasufell · Post by **hasufell** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:34 pm

Tony0945 wrote:I believe you (hasufell) are pouring gasoline on the flames and thus contributing to the flame war.

Not really. I am telling him that the way to stop the frustration is to accept that you have to get more involved... and that you cannot change some things. At which point you are better off forking projects and leaving people be, instead of continuous ranting, which alone does not help. But all I see is really a lot of words, most of which are insulting, aggressive and negative.

Negativity is an ingredient you should use sparsely if you want to collaborate and improve things.

How he reacts to my posts is up to him. I'm not responsible for his outbursts.

WWWW · Post by **WWWW** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:54 am

I just wanted to say that I support OP ideas.

I was having separate directories for /usr and other things that where standard since the beggining of linux until a year ago or so on a reboot something broke my system. I took me hell of a long time to figure out what broke.

Indee was that pos artificial restriction of no separate /usr imposed by Pottertard and his masters at RH.

gwr · Post by **gwr** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:22 pm

hasufell wrote:I am telling him that the way to stop the frustration is to accept that you have to get more involved... and that you cannot change some things.

This is not a very good argument. People, especially professionals, are entitled to analyse and evaluate software at arm's length. Either as a customer or as a developer. You can not censor someone's speech because they don't contribute to the project. This is the oldest dodge in the book. If you can't discuss the merits or demerits of a project without resorting to summarily dismissing their opinions by hand waving such as this, then you should evaluate the strengths of your position.

I don't ever plan to work on software init systems any time in the near future, but that does not mean that I am disallowed to evaluate them.

saellaven · Post by **saellaven** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:46 pm

gwr wrote:
hasufell wrote:I am telling him that the way to stop the frustration is to accept that you have to get more involved... and that you cannot change some things.
This is not a very good argument. People, especially professionals, are entitled to analyse and evaluate software at arm's length. Either as a customer or as a developer. You can not censor someone's speech because they don't contribute to the project. This is the oldest dodge in the book. If you can't discuss the merits or demerits of a project without resorting to summarily dismissing their opinions by hand waving such as this, then you should evaluate the strengths of your position.

I don't ever plan to work on software init systems any time in the near future, but that does not mean that I am disallowed to evaluate them.

Likewise, SteveL developed the patches that let openrc continue to work with a separate /usr and williamh knew about the patches, refused to accept them, and still went to the Council anyway, demanding to no longer have to support a separate /usr. So, it's not like SteveL hasn't been doing his part, it's that the Gentoo devs responsible (including the Council, whom blindly trusted williamh, then freshly minted a new Council member himself, without doing a shred of research themselves) refused his help.

hasufell · Post by **hasufell** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:26 pm

gwr wrote:
hasufell wrote:I am telling him that the way to stop the frustration is to accept that you have to get more involved... and that you cannot change some things.
This is not a very good argument. People, especially professionals, are entitled to analyse and evaluate software at arm's length. Either as a customer or as a developer. You can not censor someone's speech because they don't contribute to the project. This is the oldest dodge in the book. If you can't discuss the merits or demerits of a project without resorting to summarily dismissing their opinions by hand waving such as this, then you should evaluate the strengths of your position.

I don't ever plan to work on software init systems any time in the near future, but that does not mean that I am disallowed to evaluate them.

First of all, I do not censor anyone's speech. Even claiming that is offensive.

If you read my whole posts... they are about how to participate and change open source software. The way some people here are ranting shows that they don't really understand how to participate. Instead they show an offensive and aggressive style that is far beyond anything that could possibly be considered productive. And I am really confused why you are defending that. It is harmful for the whole community.

gwr · Post by **gwr** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:11 pm

hasufell wrote:First of all, I do not censor anyone's speech.

You are not the arbiter on how to participate in a discussion or on the evaluation of "professional" behaviour. You, by assuming any authority on "how to particpate and change" software, are by nature of writing that someone "better start" doing something amounts to attempting to knuckle someone's speech under your own sense of the way things should be. I consider that a form of attempted censorship. You came into this discussion attempting to sow discontent by the very ignorant words "some people here throw big words, but show zero action."

hasufell wrote:If you read my whole posts... they are about how to participate and change open source software. The way some people here are ranting shows that they don't really understand how to participate.

hasufell wrote:I am telling him...

The second quote contradicts the first. You did not attempt to participate in discussion. You came in here to shut down a point of view you didn't like.

We are free to rant. We are free to criticize. We do not need a magic member's club card that comes with commit prividge on a project in order to have an opinion, technical or otherwise. You are free to come in and tell people your own rants or opinions. That is the purpose of an exchange of ideas in an open forum. This is not any specific project's dev mailing list, it's an open forum.

hasufell wrote:How he reacts to my posts is up to him. I'm not responsible for his outbursts."

and then in reply to me

hasufell wrote:Even claiming that is offensive.

How you react to my posts is up to you. I am not responsible.

hasufell · Post by **hasufell** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:15 pm

gwr wrote:You are not the arbiter on how to participate in a discussion or on the evaluation of "professional" behaviour.

Thanks for the trolling. EOD.

gwr · Post by **gwr** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:19 pm

Well, I think that went well. :D

hasufell · Post by **hasufell** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:20 pm

gwr wrote:Well, I think that went well.

I don't think so. Maybe try again when you are more serious.

Naib · Post by **Naib** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:51 pm

hasufell wrote:First of all, I do not censor anyone's speech. Even claiming that is offensive.

just because you cannot control your emotions shouldn't result in the rest of us censoring ourself to protect your feelings. Address the critism don't divert it

hasufell · Post by **hasufell** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:55 pm

Naib wrote:
hasufell wrote:First of all, I do not censor anyone's speech. Even claiming that is offensive.
just because you cannot control your emotions shouldn't result in the rest of us censoring ourself to protect your feelings. Address the critism don't divert it

You are confused. I cannot censor anyone's opinion just by expressing my own opinion. That makes no sense =)

gwr · Post by **gwr** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:58 pm

hasufell wrote:I cannot censor anyone's opinion just by expressing my own opinion.

You are correct, you can't. But you can come into a forum discussion and call people who rant/complain without contributing "unprofessional" and that they "better start" doing something, hoping that will shut people up. Or, at the very least, to make an unsolicted attack on someone who's behaviour you didn't agree with.

Perhaps you genuinely wanted to help and you just worded it too bluntly and got yourself dragged into an already-split discussion about criticizing projects (and by extension, people) in public. Perhaps you just didn't like someone's attitude and because you have a developer badge you felt like you had an argument from authority of some kind.

Either way, you kinda hoped to shut someone up. That's close enough.

I, for one, welcome steveL's rants. He makes good points. He doesn't have to adjust his wording to appease people. As long as the moderators consider his words within acceptable limits, then I am fine.

I would prefer to hear _what_ he has to say rather than supress it by _how_ he has to say it.

Naib · Post by **Naib** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:43 pm

hasufell wrote:
Naib wrote:
hasufell wrote:First of all, I do not censor anyone's speech. Even claiming that is offensive.
just because you cannot control your emotions shouldn't result in the rest of us censoring ourself to protect your feelings. Address the critism don't divert it
You are confused. I cannot censor anyone's opinion just by expressing my own opinion. That makes no sense =)

I never said you would censor anyone - re-read...
What was written offended YOU, itself was not offensive. WTF cares what offends you, why should we, yet because you cannot control your emotions and find something offensive you blasted it out in the open THAT OFFENDS ME
Now one of two things would happen
1) number of fscks given is zero
2) Golly people decide to not say it as to not offend you.

you are expecting people to change their behaviour based upon your behaviour otherwise you would not have stated it offends you as the only reason to state that is some naive hope that it isn't said again

steveL · Post by **steveL** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:25 pm

Wow. Just wow.

And people wonder why I want nothing to do with being a Gentoo "developer".

steveL · Post by **steveL** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:28 pm

genstorm wrote:steveL, why do you hate so much? :(

Tell me, genstorm: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

steveL · Post by **steveL** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:39 pm

Naib wrote:All who have participated in these internal arguments (and the moderator's via inaction...) are helping to facilitate burying valid technical comments against systemd/kdbus & further discussion around alternatives & the needed direction...

Nonsense: the technical arguments need to be made, or else we end up with the apparatchiks claiming that "all concerns were responded to" and later that becomes "all concerns were addressed".

You might be happy to let your overlords dictate how you use your machine, but I am not.

Like it or not, the systems we use are built via collaboration with others. As such we must be free to discuss and bandy around ideas, even if someone else thinks it is boring, a talking-shop, or "bikeshed" etc.

It's not like we asked them to stick their oars in, and dictate to us. Nor indeed did we ask for the "gentle Putsch" we've been subjected to for so many years now.

As for the remark about moderators, I'm not sure quite what you expect them to do. People are talking crap on the internet; hardly a surprise, as this thread demonstrates.
In fact it's the whole bloody point of a chat forum.

Maybe they think it's better to let people have the discussion, than waste weeks of effort trying to stamp it out.
After all, that is the point of this site.

desultory · Post by **desultory** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:55 am

steveL wrote:
genstorm wrote:steveL, why do you hate so much?
Tell me, genstorm: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

While I realize the intent here, by both, hence my not handing out Warnings; it seems that you are both reading more into each others comments than is intended and are engaging in interpersonal rhetorical escalation, please keep it under control, even the rhetorical loaded questions.

Yamakuzure · Post by **Yamakuzure** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:06 pm

I think, and this is my very personal opinion that has no guarantee to be 100% correct, that a few people should lean back and remember:

All you see are written words. They are naked. You get absolutely no emotional hints you would normally get in direct communication through emphasis, expression, pitch of the others voice or facial expression. Only what you make up in your head.
And that is only your emotion that has nothing to do (at least in most cases) with what the original author felt while writing the words you read.

Did they write with a smug sneer on their face? Or with furrowed brows? Did they grin or looked sadden? You'd never know.

Please consider, that the following sentence has seven different meanings, depending on which word you emphasize:
"I never said she stole my money"

Maybe this will help some people here to cool down (and maybe get their heads deflated) a bit, maybe it will be ignored. But I felt this should be said.
...with a contemplative expression on my face...

khayyam · Post by **khayyam** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:39 pm

desultory wrote:
steveL wrote:
genstorm wrote:steveL, why do you hate so much? :(
Tell me, genstorm: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
While I realize the intent here, by both, hence my not handing out Warnings; it seems that you are both reading more into each others comments than is intended and are engaging in interpersonal rhetorical escalation, please keep it under control, even the rhetorical loaded questions.

desultory ... so, what is the intent here exactly? IMO, the former is a troll in the form of a seemingly innocuous (but loaded) question, and the later is the primary, and oft used, example of a loaded question. You seem to be treating both as having the same intent (escalation, or what-have-you) when they clearly don't. The more subtle the troll, or the more effort put into disguising it, the more likely it'll get a pass ... if it's countered it in some way, then that is seen as escalation. That's a no-win situation, and one that encourages trolling.

best ... khay