Looks like Gentoo is a sinking ship.

Message

longint · Post by **longint** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:38 pm

Lurking around at the archlinux site it seems they are definitely worth to get a closer look...

dE_logics · Post by **dE_logics** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:31 am

dalek wrote:
longint wrote:
SlashBeast wrote:I see a lot powerusers leaving gentoo and going to distros like for example archlinux.
To which other distros do other users/dev tend to leave to? Is there any mainstream - is it archlinux?

Stumbled about this post lurking around what "other" distro is worth to check...
I read about people leaving Gentoo but after a while, they come back again. Is Gentoo a drug? I can't find myself leaving.

I don't think there is a specific distro. It seems it is always something different. Debian gets mentioned a lot but again, they come back.

Maybe they see Gentoo as a nice game. And nothing can be better working inside a game.

Ant P. · Post by **Ant P.** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:15 am

What the fuck?

Etal · Post by **Etal** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:01 am

Yup, that's the topic of this thread [post=6719705]this week[/post]. I guess it's been too quiet recently... can't have for too long that, can you?

Thankfully ssuominen is back, which is a relief.

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:08 am

Yup. No point in having rules if people can choose not to follow them.

Ant P. · Post by **Ant P.** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:20 am

Etal wrote:Yup, that's the topic of this thread [post=6719705]this week[/post]. I guess it's been too quiet recently... can't have for too long that, can you? :roll:

Thankfully ssuominen is back, which is a relief.

And just above it I'd posted this...

Some of these pen-pushing "developers" need to realise a "bleeding-edge" distro doesn't mean bury the edge of your fucking sword into the first person you see stepping out of line. Especially since gentoo isn't even a bleeding-edge distro with all the manpower it's been driving away for years.

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:51 am

But as was pointed out in the bug, if a few can break that policy, can others break the policies they don't like too? Where does it end? Does it end when Gentoo can no longer compile portage itself or when people realize that there are some things that have to be done even if it isn't something we really like to do?

I hate that it came to the council to begin with. Thing is, it did. The Council made a decision that renders other opinions mute. Some have forgot what the mute button means I guess. I wouldn't mind the argument if it was to get the council to reconsider but it appears it has got to the point of 'I'll have it my way or leave'. I've seen that before. They ended up gone and Gentoo continued right on.

Why is it that everybody thinks the world will stop spinning if they leave their job? Do we really think we are each that important?

Ant P. · Post by **Ant P.** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:25 am

dalek wrote:Where does it end?

I can't say for certain, but if Gentoo internals insists on being the FOSS world's own TSA then the end will be at someone else's less-user-hostile, less-volunteer-hostile distro.

But I'll leave it at that, because this is getting into OTW territory now.

PaulBredbury · Post by **PaulBredbury** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:57 am

dalek wrote:renders other opinions mute. Some have forgot what the mute button means

This is the grammar police. Raise your arms and step away from the keyboard slowly. You are guilty of multiple transgressions.

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:11 am

PaulBredbury wrote:
dalek wrote:renders other opinions mute. Some have forgot what the mute button means
This is the grammar police. Raise your arms and step away from the keyboard slowly. You are guilty of multiple transgressions.

Not here. Council made a decision. No matter the opinion, people need to go by the rules. That's it.

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:15 am

dalek wrote:Not here. Council made a decision. No matter the opinion, people need to go by the rules. That's it.

Or, they could say 'f*ck you!' and walk off. Which apparently the heaviest committers are doing, thanks to incompetent governance.

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:22 am

Ant P. wrote:
dalek wrote:Where does it end?
I can't say for certain, but if Gentoo internals insists on being the FOSS world's own TSA then the end will be at someone else's less-user-hostile, less-volunteer-hostile distro.

But I'll leave it at that, because this is getting into OTW territory now.

Actually, I think people not following the rules would end up worse. Can you imagine what the tree would look like if 30 or 40 teams of people each did their own thing? Gentoo would become unusable to say it simply. Then this thread would be true.

When the Council makes a decision, people have to go by the rules. If not, may as well get rid of the council. If what they say means nothing, why should they say anything or make any decisions?

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:29 am

AidanJT wrote:
dalek wrote:Not here. Council made a decision. No matter the opinion, people need to go by the rules. That's it.
Or, they could say 'f*ck you!' and walk off. Which apparently the heaviest committers are doing, thanks to incompetent governance.

That has been done before. Gentoo is still here. I hate to see anyone leave, especially if they are doing even a little bit, but rules are rules. After all, the devs elect the Council to lead Gentoo so why not listen to them? If someone chooses to leave, that is their decision. Most people leave at some point and Gentoo will move right along.

I might add, I been using Gentoo for years. I've seen people come and go. Gentoo has survived a lot and I'm sure it will survive this as well.

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:35 am

It doesn't matter if Gentoo is still here when it's become a disgrace to itself. And what you're effectively saying is, if you don't like it, suck it up or leave. That makes the problem even worse.

phajdan.jr · Post by **phajdan.jr** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:54 am

AidanJT wrote:Or, they could say 'f*ck you!' and walk off. Which apparently the heaviest committers are doing, thanks to incompetent governance.

Some people in this thread are saying that QA is bad, and what are our testing standards, and now are you saying we should allow everything just because lots of changes is somehow good in itself? We need to set some quality bar, and in my opinion it should be pretty high.

By the way, Samuli (ssuominen) is still doing useful work and has been nominated for the council, and Markos (hworang) is still doing useful work, and has accepted his council nomination: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections ... minees.xml. They are still committing: http://cia.vc/stats/author/hwoarang, http://cia.vc/stats/author/ssuominen.

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:58 am

AidanJT wrote:It doesn't matter if Gentoo is still here when it's become a disgrace to itself. And what you're effectively saying is, if you don't like it, suck it up or leave. That makes the problem even worse.

So, are you saying that the Council makes a policy decision and nobody has to follow the policy? If that is your argument, that is disgraceful. To have a ELECTED Council that makes policy decisions that the very people that elected them won't follow. Yep, that's a good way to run a organization. I'm sure that will last a really long time and make for a really good distro. Correct me if I misunderstand something.

You are correct in what I am saying tho. If you don't like the policy, change it or find something else to do but don't break the policy. Yea, I do realize they are volunteers. That said, nobody forces them to stay. People leave for various reasons and people come to help for various reasons. This happens year around and it still works.

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:12 am

dalek wrote:So, are you saying that the Council makes a policy decision and nobody has to follow the policy? If that is your argument, that is disgraceful. To have a ELECTED Council that makes policy decisions that the very people that elected them won't follow. Yep, that's a good way to run a organization. I'm sure that will last a really long time and make for a really good distro. Correct me if I misunderstand something.

You are correct in what I am saying tho. If you don't like the policy, change it or find something else to do but don't break the policy. Yea, I do realize they are volunteers. That said, nobody forces them to stay. People leave for various reasons and people come to help for various reasons. This happens year around and it still works.

What you're talking about is totalitarianism. Rules should only be obeyed when they serve a useful purpose. If the government passed a law which says you must sacrifice your first born would you do it just because it's a rule? We have a councillor in my city who accused other councillors of 'popularism', ignoring the fact that he was elected by the people to represent them, that's what a representative democracy is for, for the representative to represent his constituents interests. His job *IS* to make decisions according to the will of the people, not to lord over them.

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:15 pm

AidanJT wrote:What you're talking about is totalitarianism. Rules should only be obeyed when they serve a useful purpose. If the government passed a law which says you must sacrifice your first born would you do it just because it's a rule? We have a councillor in my city who accused other councillors of 'popularism', ignoring the fact that he was elected by the people to represent them, that's what a representative democracy is for, for the representative to represent his constituents interests. His job *IS* to make decisions according to the will of the people, not to lord over them.

That would be incorrect. It is not totalitarianism at all. That is when it is ruled by one person with no check or balances. The council is made of several people, not one. I might add, they are also elected as well.

The rules, policy, that the Council decided on does server a purpose. That was why people asked the council to make the policy.

As for my first born, well, I don't have kids. If I did, I'd leave if needed. That is a option that the devs have as well. Also, I've yet to see Gentoo kill someone. I'm not sure that is even a comparison really.

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:39 pm

Wrong. Representative democracy is not a license for temporary dictatorship. And the first born example is to highlight the moral bankruptcy of blind and total acceptance of rules.

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:57 pm

AidanJT wrote:Wrong. Representative democracy is not a license for temporary dictatorship. And the first born example is to highlight the moral bankruptcy of blind and total acceptance of rules.

It wasn't a temporary dictatorship either. I'm beginning to think you don't have a clue what went on and just want to argue for something to do. I do wonder this, if you live your life the same as you imply here, you my friend will end up in a bad place. Society has rules and you appear to not understand that. That is not a good thing.

I may not have the best eye sight but I think I have a better view on things.

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:02 pm

In order to save me from repeating myself:

AidanJT wrote:If the government passed a law which says you must sacrifice your first born would you do it just because it's a rule?

Give the mindless totalitarianism a rest.

aCOSwt · Post by **aCOSwt** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:34 pm

dalek wrote:But as was pointed out in the bug, if a few can break that policy, can others break the policies they don't like too?

Being said that philo exams having passed... I am left... a bit... short of profundities...

Nevermind !

Do you really believe that, despite being actually on topic with regard to the bug, this is actually really the real actual problem ?
Well then... if so... you'll save a student. I was going to value his(her) work 2/20 !
He(she) will now deserve a 3 ! (50% increase ! That was worth it)

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:41 pm

AidanJT wrote:In order to save me from repeating myself:
AidanJT wrote:If the government passed a law which says you must sacrifice your first born would you do it just because it's a rule?
Give the mindless totalitarianism a rest.

Where do you get that from exactly? You're not making any sense at all. The Council made the policy. A separate group, devrel, enforced the policy. Also, it was other developers that reported the policy not being followed. So, if the policy was that bad, why was it reported? Then why was it enforced? If that is what you call "mindless totalitarianism" then you need a better dictionary. Yours appears to have a few pages out of place somewhere.

As to the child thing, that isn't the same thing. If the Council passed such a silly thing, then you can just leave. Killing a child and comparing that to making a changelog entry just doesn't make sense.

I think what you fail to understand is that being a developer is a privilege not a right. Just like being on this forum. There are rules here. If you break the rules, you lose that privilege. If you want to test that theory, post something you know you shouldn't. You would get a warning most likely but if you continued to do it, you would have your account banned or otherwise restricted. If you want to test the theory, knock yourself out. If you don't test the theory, then you made my point, even you can follow the rules.

Post by **Chiitoo** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:53 pm

It is really depressing to see such 'trivial' matters to build up to that of a scale.

I think what the problem here is are the rules themselves and the policies on how to handle them. If this kind of a thing should work, it needs rules, yes, and the higher-ups need to stick to them of course, else, they would be quite obsolete. This creates the circle of problems that something as 'minor' as this can escalate to such a situation which basically means de-motivation, or even worse, a retirement of great people doing great things!
I really can put myself into all the sides of this case, and agree with them all and thus I understand how hard it can be to solve it. The issues here really is the way the rules were forged, I think, because they do not allow the Council flexibility as far as I can understand it at the moment.

I personally would prefer any, AND I MEAN ANY little changes documented easily for the user to find. Even a small typo.
But I do not want that if it exhausts the time of the developer in these minute, trivial, not-so-important cases. I'm sure something can, and will be done about it.

I'm just clad ssuominen, and the others, did not leave us, for you have helped me and the other Gentoo users more than you might be able to imagine.
I can't do much myself (at least not yet), but I really do look up to people like you, who use your time into something like this even when some people seem to want to stop you because you "pissed them off" (yes, Diego, I'm talking about you, however I do understand your point of view as well and I am not blaming you for anything and this is more of a joke than anything else but I think you know what I mean).

~sigh~

Even the concluding part got that long. Someone stop me!
Oh!
One more thing, while this all might be appropriate to the topic still, I do kind of feel the ones about this particular 'happening' should be in a dedicated thread? Purrhaps?

I don't know, maybe it's best for this one.
I do appreciate that the 'bug' was made public. I do like to know what is going on with 'my' system, isn't that what Gentoo is after all. ;]

Again, sorry for the rambling, I ish a little bit tipsy!

Alekz49 · Post by **Alekz49** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:22 pm

I find it hard to believe Gentoo will die in the near or medium future. As a User (yes, i'm not a coder), and part of a project to build a profession standard midi/audio pipeline as a fulltime working environment for film scorers, writers, etc.. Gentoo is the foundation of our setup, and will be as a result of the inadequacies in other distros and projects, for our particular use case. (Writing music with large Sample libs, running a single, or multiple boxes....)

Gentoo does something that other distros don't, and that is, by the nature of its design and source based system, it DOESN'T make generic assumptions about what might constitute an individual users workflow.

Nearly all of you posting so far seem to come at Gentoo, and consequently, base perceptions on good or bad, from a developer/geek/nerd/senseofhumour/pickone point of view. As a User with a particular itch to scratch, it took some effort to build my first Gentoo system. (and i had help from Gentoo users/devs who know what they're doing, but let me do it myself, giving the odd nudge of encouragement here and there) It was a moment of enlightenment, not from a mindset of "I'm a geek now. Wow!", but a practical goal to utilise the freedom one has to build a Gentoo system as small or large as they want, but most importantly, to SUIT A PARTICULAR PUPOSE. As mainstream distros get more and more generic in their assumptions for users, imho, Gentoo, far from dying, stands out more and more as the go to user/purpose workflow system, designed by the user, for a task, or set of tasks.

I use 64bit Gentoo, with a 64bit RT kernel, and Fluxbox, with no icons, flashy 3D effects, or other stuff that is "bloat" for what i do. (It's the choice i have that makes this very important.) As a real world application of the efficiency of such a setup, i can run a better than previous studio setup in 1 Gentoo box, than as was the case in the Win world, where i ran a Win/DAW box, and 5 Gigastudio boxes. (And it was like herding cats to keep them all running at the same time, long enough to get any significant amount of work done.)

I note with interest that so much of the dicussion is based around dev/design/function comparisons with allegedly "easier more user friendly distros", but i add here as an experienced fulltime computer user (since the first music apps began, on Amiga, Fairlight, early Cubase, Logic Audio....), who just wants to get on with the work, and have the system running 24/7 (which it has done without fail for a long time now), the non-generic possibilities available with Gentoo far outweigh the time it might take to get setup. My last Gentoo build took 8 hours, including QT4, Python, A mass of audio and midi based libs, and so on. That 8 hours effort, let's even say one complete day, has resulted in a system for which i need to carry out very little maintenance, if any.

Please don't assume that all Users are dumb browser GUI driven, icon and mouse loving NASA wannabes. O the idea of a "perfect" distros is one that pops up one dialog after another asking "are you sure you want to do this?" Or a stack of menus, sub-menus, sub-sub-menus, and so on.

Being a source based distro puts Gentoo in a unique position. But it's not one of "It doesn't behave like a REAL distro." It's actually much better than that.

We've had a lot of users over at www.openoctave.org recently, hanging around the bar, wating for our next release, which is soon. Our entire setup is Gentoo based, and there's been a lot of interest in our efficient, some might say barebones approach to building a professional music creation box, with native linux apps.

If the interest is anything to go by, i guess aided by our enthusiasm and practical day to day experiences, then Gentoo, at least from our tiny corner of the linux world, is alive and well, and prospering. We do our bit to promote this excellent distro at the coalface, helping users to get setup, dealing with niggles here and there, in the real world, as we go.

It might seem like Gentoo is dying, but imho, it only appears that way to some, based on their own expectations of what is "dying."

Sorry for a long first post, but i couldn't stand by and watch our default distro get a bit knocked about based on only one or two criteria, without adding a daily real use comment or several, from someone who uses Gentoo all day every day, in a way that completely suits my way of working.

Regards,

Alex Stone.

p.s. I add my appreciation and continued respect to all those devs who contribute to bring us Gentoo now and in the future.

Looks like Gentoo is a sinking ship.

Re: Looks like Gentoo is a sinking ship.

Hrm.

Gentoo not sinking here at least