Looks like Gentoo is a sinking ship.

Message

Post by **NeddySeagoon** » Tue May 24, 2011 4:32 pm

mengzhao,

I think you are missing the point of Gentoo. Gentoo is not a Linux distro, its a set of tools you use to build your own distro.
Think of Linux From Scratch with a package manager. Thats a little simplistic but its essentially correct.

What your "Gentoo Install" looks like depends on what part of the toolset the Gentoo offers, you use and to a lesser extend on how you use the tools.
This means everyones "Gentoo Install" is different.

mengzhao wrote:So you have a portage tree? Can the Gentoo people build a system with all the packages in the portage tree.

No, thats not possible as Gentoo provides several versions of most packages. You may only install several versions of the same package on Gentoo, if they are "Slotted", like the kernel, gcc, python and a few others, otherwise one version will replace another. In some instance, several packages provide the same functionality and only one such package may be installed at any time.

dirkfanick · Post by **dirkfanick** » Tue May 24, 2011 6:11 pm

Linux has already lost the war of desktop to windows.

Anyone tried ubuntu or apple?

By the way: It shouldn't be a >war<. To win a war is the "winning" with violence and militarys and the annihilation of the enemy - or to life finally in peace with the warheads of the so called enemy. I want an os that is secure, customizable and that I know (or learn) what's init and that I can sleep peacefull with. On some days I think gentoo is the only choice about that.

USE="-war"

yoshi314 · Post by **yoshi314** » Wed May 25, 2011 11:12 am

NeddySeagoon wrote:No, thats not possible as Gentoo provides several versions of most packages. You may only install several versions of the same package on Gentoo, if they are "Slotted", like the kernel, gcc, python and a few others, otherwise one version will replace another. In some instance, several packages provide the same functionality and only one such package may be installed at any time.

that's what i really like about gentoo. it's hard to have multiple versions of a package on a binary distro without resorting to manual intervention.

or having multiple versions of python,gcc,perl etc. not necessarily installed, but at least available in a repository.

also, portage often holds multiple package versions of a package you can choose from. that's very helpful if you take kernel packages into consideration.

that kind of convenience really makes me stick to gentoo.

dirkfanick · Post by **dirkfanick** » Wed May 25, 2011 1:27 pm

Dito:

gentoo just hasn't this sometimes awful dependency problems like in debian.

and you can compile and patch nearly everything in the open-source-universe.

dE_logics · Post by **dE_logics** » Wed May 25, 2011 2:46 pm

Maybe the future of Gentoo is overlays and bugzilla, it's a quick way to contribute.

gentoo just hasn't this sometimes awful dependency problems like in debian.

Holy cow. A few days ago I was just cleaning up the 'manually installed' package, took the whole day.

Ant P. · Post by **Ant P.** » Wed May 25, 2011 3:12 pm

It always amuses me when clueless people proclaim "Linux has lost the desktop war!!2". Linux is about creating better software, not waging war and trying to annihilate as many "enemies" as possible. Microsoft however is all about fighting and in-fighting, and the desktop is the only place they haven't lost - yet.

phajdan.jr · Post by **phajdan.jr** » Wed May 25, 2011 4:01 pm

dE_logics wrote:
gentoo just hasn't this sometimes awful dependency problems like in debian.
Holy cow. A few days ago I was just cleaning up the 'manually installed' package, took the whole day.

Watch out, it's a dangerous argument. What Debian guys are going to say is just "learn to use apt/aptitude/whatever", and they're going to be right. I still think emerge has advantages (especially when you know what you're doing), and that apt/rpm often try to prevent you from shooting in the foot which causes its own problems.

dE_logics · Post by **dE_logics** » Wed May 25, 2011 4:05 pm

phajdan.jr wrote:
dE_logics wrote:
gentoo just hasn't this sometimes awful dependency problems like in debian.
Holy cow. A few days ago I was just cleaning up the 'manually installed' package, took the whole day.
Watch out, it's a dangerous argument. What Debian guys are going to say is just "learn to use apt/aptitude/whatever", and they're going to be right. I still think emerge has advantages (especially when you know what you're doing), and that apt/rpm often try to prevent you from shooting in the foot which causes its own problems.

No comparison. Implementing a source PM is a lot harder... it's a different book requiring different types of authors.

All in all, I find apt a complete headache. I actually find portage easier and more ergonomic.

dirkfanick · Post by **dirkfanick** » Fri May 27, 2011 1:36 pm

The advatage is, that you can install/compile bleeding-edge-software (from devs or overlays) linked to stable libs (of course there are some exceptions and the sometimes appearing KEYWORDS-struggles are admit-able awful).

that what was what i didn't like about debian. distupgrades to edge/unstable are a dangerous thing sometimes.

gentoo is opensource as it should be. debian/ubuntu is for users that are not that interested in having always the newest sources, but to have a (almost) stable system.

dE_logics · Post by **dE_logics** » Fri May 27, 2011 2:04 pm

that what was what i didn't like about debian. distupgrades to edge/unstable are a dangerous thing sometimes.

You may make you Debian distro rolling release, e.g. -

Code: Select all

deb-src http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
deb http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
deb http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
deb http://ftp2.de.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
deb ftp://mirror.cse.iitk.ac.in/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib
# Marillat For info visit http://www.debian-multimedia.org
deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org testing main

Notice the 'testing'. Same's for experimental and unstable.

dirkfanick · Post by **dirkfanick** » Mon May 30, 2011 2:00 pm

I tried to explain, that you don't have to make a complete dist-upgrade just to have the newest firefox, gimp, ardour, grub or whatever.

The packages are not statically linked in gentoo - even if a revdep-rebuild is awfull sometimes.

ubuntu is a nice & beatifull preconfigured desktop anyway.

likewhoa · Post by **likewhoa** » Mon May 30, 2011 8:55 pm

dirkfanick wrote:ubuntu is a nice & beatifull preconfigured desktop anyway.

preconfigured for lazy people who are not into tweaking their OS.

dE_logics · Post by **dE_logics** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:11 am

Ubuntu?... Holy shit. The worst QA of all distros... despite it's large team, of not to mention windows migrants who programed for .NET before...

dirkfanick · Post by **dirkfanick** » Tue May 31, 2011 1:20 pm

despite it's large team, of not to mention windows migrants who programed for .NET before...

In hamburg sociologists call this gentrification. Some occupation.

btw:

Buy from companies supporting opensource -- IBM, Dell, HP, Nokia, Hitachi etc...
Disfavor companies supporting only Win -- Logitech, Epson, Adobe, Autodesk, Pioneer, Kingston, WD, Yahoo, MSI, XFX

that's the wrong way, but thanks for the hint anyway.

Kollin · Post by **Kollin** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:40 pm

This blog post rally made me sad http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org/2011/06 ... ad-leader/

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:41 pm

I subscribe to -dev and read the arguments from both sides. I see it this way, no matter which way the council decided, someone was going to be upset and "unmotivated". Thing is, the council made a decision and to be part of the team, you have to obey the rules. If you don't like the rules, make the case to have it changed but don't break them in the meantime.

I also can't help but notice this, it seemed the vast majority agree with the councils decision. It was only a few that didn't. So would we rather keep a few and lose many or keep the many and lose a few? Since Gentoo is so short on manpower, as is always claimed, would losing many be a good idea?

I realize that some put in more effort than others. Does that mean that others won't step up and take up the slack? That has happened in the past and I'm sure it will happen again. Should that also mean that if you have more commits than others that your opinion counts more than others? Can anyone else see where that would take Gentoo. Anyone know what a dictator is?

Isn't the council elected by the very ones complaining about the decision? Shouldn't we all remember that if we cast a vote for the wrong person(s) we get to keep the consequences.

Dr.Willy · Post by **Dr.Willy** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:42 pm

19:52 < Arfrever> The patch for devmanual doesn't disallow `ln -fs /bin/true
/usr/bin/echangelog`

Haha.
This kind of management-decision-enforcment reminds me why I demand loads of money for working as a programmer.

Etal · Post by **Etal** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:25 am

It's sad to see things blow out of proportion like that - I thought things calmed down in the past few years.

I'm just glad neither ssuominen nor vapier stormed out.

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:56 am

Oh things are better. It got so bad on the -dev list that I unsubscribed. I got tired of reading basically nothing but devs arguing about nothing.

On the changelog, I see some changes that should be made. If a file is about to be deleted, why put it in the changelog. That is one that doesn't make sense. Add a entry that you are going to delete a file then delete the very same file. It just sort of escapes me. Now if that file is going to be archived somewhere, then it should be noted because it got changed but is archived for future reference.

I think the biggest point is, it is the rules. They need to be changed to make more sense but that could be done reasonably quickly. I think like most things, it was a little bit of a overreaction. Just follow the rules until it get corrected.

phajdan.jr · Post by **phajdan.jr** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:00 am

dalek wrote:Oh things are better. It got so bad on the -dev list that I unsubscribed. I got tired of reading basically nothing but devs arguing about nothing.

I'm just skipping most of those posts.

dalek wrote:On the changelog, I see some changes that should be made. If a file is about to be deleted, why put it in the changelog. That is one that doesn't make sense. Add a entry that you are going to delete a file then delete the very same file. It just sort of escapes me. Now if that file is going to be archived somewhere, then it should be noted because it got changed but is archived for future reference.

Deleted files are archived by CVS and any other version control system. I don't get it how a file deletion is somehow different. With a version control system the person making a change is expected to describe each change. CVS has those non-atomic commits, so many projects use ChangeLog files to make it easier to view the logs.

And actually removing an ebuild may break reverse dependencies, removing some other file may break an ebuild... If there is no ChangeLog entry, such breakages are harder to track down. This is not about rules, it's mostly common sense (at least to me).

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:21 am

I agree, it started out as common sense. Then it turned into following the rules after the council decision. Given your explanation, I see now that just because something is removed does not mean it is deleted or gone forever. In that case, I agree there should be a changelog.

The funny thing is, I'm not a dev and never have been one. Given the information you just gave, I see why there should be a entry in the changelog and why the council made the decision they did. Just wish everyone else could see that too.

theBlackDragon · Post by **theBlackDragon** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:55 pm

Kollin wrote:This blog post rally made me sad http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org/2011/06 ... ad-leader/

Boy, and I thought they fixed that crap years ago. Guess I was wrong then.

Etal · Post by **Etal** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:57 pm

What I don't get is (if I'm understanding correctly) is why the CVS log is different from the ChangeLog? Why can't the CVS commit message just be automatically appended to it?

longint · Post by **longint** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:21 pm

SlashBeast wrote:I see a lot powerusers leaving gentoo and going to distros like for example archlinux.

To which other distros do other users/dev tend to leave to? Is there any mainstream - is it archlinux?

Stumbled about this post lurking around what "other" distro is worth to check...

dalek · Post by **dalek** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:43 pm

longint wrote:
SlashBeast wrote:I see a lot powerusers leaving gentoo and going to distros like for example archlinux.
To which other distros do other users/dev tend to leave to? Is there any mainstream - is it archlinux?

Stumbled about this post lurking around what "other" distro is worth to check...

I read about people leaving Gentoo but after a while, they come back again. Is Gentoo a drug? I can't find myself leaving.

I don't think there is a specific distro. It seems it is always something different. Debian gets mentioned a lot but again, they come back.

Looks like Gentoo is a sinking ship.

Re: Looks like Gentoo is a sinking ship.

Re: Looks like Gentoo is a sinking ship.