KDE 4 and usability

[bloedie]

Hi dmpogo.

4) konsole seems has lost ability to display meaningful titles. Not particularly informative to see 'python2.6' while doing emerge, instead of full info of kde-3.5

You can change this very easily.

open a konsole

Setup ----> Edit atcual Profile ----> Subwindow

and change the %d : %n

to %w

that's all.

Cu.
Bloedie

[SamuliSuominen]

4) konsole seems has lost ability to display meaningful titles. Not particularly informative to see 'python2.6' while doing emerge, instead of full info of kde-3.5

"Edit Profile" -> "Tabs" -> "Tab Title Format" -> "Insert" -> "Window Title Set By Shell"

I think

[asturm]

Example: After you pluged in a new usb device you see a new "button" in the device widget with the symbol of a usb dongle and it has a hover effect so you click it. It also says "2 actions for this device". But where are they? Where can I see them? You have to click the whole device button for the old "What do you want to do?" Window to appear. But then I see all the actions anyway, why show them earlier? And after it has been mounted, there is a smal icon on the right of the device button. But has no hover effect of its own so one assumes its just a status indicator. But NO, if you click on that symbol you will anmount the device! How should I know this? Oh and then I realize there is a smaller icon on the picture of the usb dongle too. Is that clickable too? No, not this time. You get my idea?

Well, I didn't have any problems with the Device Menu at all, maybe because I automatically associated the Eject button with what it is. However, I agree that the following ancient 'Action' Menu should be moved inside that same widget.

Ok, this has been taken care of in KDE-4.4. I am very pleased.

[emerald]

If you are still using KDE3, it's about time to switch since KDE3 is about to be removed from Portage.
Or moved into a overlay, it's not maintained anymore (by upstream or gentoo).

KDE4 became usable just now (but still far from good, compare e.g. amarok functionality) so the first thing to be done is kick out KDE3?
It's true, there are some packages not building, this can be corrected by placing the library search path of KDE3 before /usr/lib(64) and all builds again.

I've tried KDE4 on a notebook, it's ... ok to be used, some packages quite unstable, some packages were missing (kile, k3b (hard masked), kbluetooth4). I've just seen some appeared in portage already now.
I've put some application icons in a panel as a quick starter (I'm used to ksmoothdock and missing a replacement (the quickstart panel is not really usable, it behaves very strange)) but on every boot all icons move around instead of sticking to their position.
A complete certificate management is still missing (try to import a ca certificate and trust that certificate), even though kleopatra does some things already.
Eye candy is nice, but most themes simply have huge borders which just waste space.
Many small things that are still annoyances even though alot is working and some things are certainly improved (e.g. kontact as PIM-system feels more complete and 'together').

For now I'd rather stay with kde 3.5 on my desktop and try kde 4.4 when it's released.
But ssuominen is making it really hard to switch when time is right but forcing everyone to switch very soon :/

(Btw, I've got a cordless keyboard without status leds, so I've used kkeyled (which is masked now ) but I've not yet) found a suitable replacement in kde4)

[dmpogo]

4) konsole seems has lost ability to display meaningful titles. Not particularly informative to see 'python2.6' while doing emerge, instead of full info of kde-3.5

"Edit Profile" -> "Tabs" -> "Tab Title Format" -> "Insert" -> "Window Title Set By Shell"

I think

Thanks to you and bloedie ! That took care of it

[dmpogo]

If you are still using KDE3, it's about time to switch since KDE3 is about to be removed from Portage.
Or moved into a overlay, it's not maintained anymore (by upstream or gentoo).

But ssuominen is making it really hard to switch when time is right but forcing everyone to switch very soon :/

Well, seems like somebody on a mission to have everybody to switch, doesn't it For example, last night perfectly slotted, well working 3.5 versions of digikam and gwenview were profile masked. As if there is a concern that we found way to stay longer with 3.5

I don't want to be personal, but it does reflect on Gentoo as a distro. I start thinking that Gentoo, getting in wide use ~2004, has for the first time reached situation when there is a trail of people that have it running on mature (customized over years) installations and, perhaps, 5 year old hardware. Now maintaining legacy applications and setups has become important, and it seems like Gentoo is not very suitable for that.

[Gusar]

I don't want to be personal, but it does reflect on Gentoo as a distro.

Other distros have already dropped KDE3 months ago. Gentoo is one of the few (if not the only one) that still makes KDE3 avaliable. But without an upstream it's completely understandable that at one point it'll be removed from Gentoo too. It's the same with all apps - new versions come, older ones get removed. Apps also get removed if they lack an upstream. KDE is nothing special here. Do you still see xmms in Gentoo, for example?

[USTruck]

I don't want to be personal, but it does reflect on Gentoo as a distro.

Other distros have already dropped KDE3 months ago. Gentoo is one of the few (if not the only one) that still makes KDE3 avaliable. But without an upstream it's completely understandable that at one point it'll be removed from Gentoo too. It's the same with all apps - new versions come, older ones get removed. Apps also get removed if they lack an upstream. KDE is nothing special here. Do you still see xmms in Gentoo, for example?

No but before to remove it a dev ask all gentoo users (forum/update portage, ...) to be sure that no major problem comes.

But with KDE 3.5 and probably with Gnome 2.2x (futur Gnome 3) no comment about that, Gentoo are for certain poeple THE DISTRIBUTION to use with old hardware.

For my side, I not install gentoo in my company but I get this point : Install in production 5 PC desktop with kde 3.5 (old hardware) all works and company are happy
Now you push KDE 4 ..... old hardware doesn't support fully KDE4 and thus needs some upgrade of hardware (windows use this to force ....).
How to maintain same interface, work usage for all with different station ?
You see on this forum lot of people to resist on change ..... on company this resist became money loose

At all time Gentoo provide a choice (major reason of I use Gentoo) ..... with kde 4 and near future of portage tree we don't have a choice.
KDE 3.5 and Gnome 2.X are two major interface used under Linux, due that we are exactly on same position of Microsoft : how to push new version ??
Microsoft respect a user based on money, Linux respect a user based on knowledge. Please do not became Microsoft attitude
Lot of distribution push KDE4 , but maintain old version (security) with long terms (Suse, Mandriva, Ubuntu, this is a guarantee about professional usage of system)

A Gentoo dev use a 'Slot' to séparate ebuild install. Great why to not old 3.5 in slot 3.5 to enable install on old hardware ? with/without security maintenance about specific package of 3.5.

I see two major point about maintenance of kde 3.5 in portage tree
1) no futur security update (announce of kde team) for kde 3.5 on all kde 3.5 official applications (same for all distributions)
2) how to maintain futur evolution of some package/kernel impacted kde 3.5 (this is a major point)

[dmpogo]

I don't want to be personal, but it does reflect on Gentoo as a distro.

Other distros have already dropped KDE3 months ago. Gentoo is one of the few (if not the only one) that still makes KDE3 avaliable. But without an upstream it's completely understandable that at one point it'll be removed from Gentoo too. It's the same with all apps - new versions come, older ones get removed. Apps also get removed if they lack an upstream. KDE is nothing special here. Do you still see xmms in Gentoo, for example?

Current support, bug fixes, etc is not the point, nobody expects that. The point is - nvidia continously dropping support for earlier cards. Fine, but with legacy card I can download the old driver and it will work just fine. In a binary distro, if I wish, I can install RH 9.0 right now. Even more, I can set up my machine as it was in 2002 if I want. It may be difficult (but possible) to find old rpm's online, but if you did a regular backups of your rpms - you can put the bricks together in no time.

Gentoo (in a way - by design) does not have this possibilities. Which, I now begin to see, is an issue, which possibly was less noticeable when Gentoo was young. It is nice (I love it !), but hobbyist distro.

[SamuliSuominen]

(Btw, I've got a cordless keyboard without status leds, so I've used kkeyled (which is masked now ) but I've not yet) found a suitable replacement in kde4)

There's kbstateapplet, not yet released unfortunately. But it's in kde-testing.

http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playground/ ... ateapplet/

http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitweb/? ... 4a;hb=HEAD

[SamuliSuominen]

I see two major point about maintenance of kde 3.5 in portage tree
1) no futur security update (announce of kde team) for kde 3.5 on all kde 3.5 official applications (same for all distributions)
2) how to maintain futur evolution of some package/kernel impacted kde 3.5 (this is a major point)

At the moment we are already dragging base-system behind for KDE3 (autoconf 2.64, try it, and notice that nothing using kdelibs-3 will build anymore).

knetworkmanager doesn't work with stable networkmanager, kmplayer doesn't work with stable mplayer, krecipes doesn't work with stable sqlite,
kdebluetooth doesn't work with stable bluez, and the list goes on...

there will be a news item soon of it's removal

[USTruck]

I see two major point about maintenance of kde 3.5 in portage tree
1) no futur security update (announce of kde team) for kde 3.5 on all kde 3.5 official applications (same for all distributions)
2) how to maintain futur evolution of some package/kernel impacted kde 3.5 (this is a major point)

At the moment we are already dragging base-system behind for KDE3 (autoconf 2.64, try it, and notice that nothing using kdelibs-3 will build anymore).

knetworkmanager doesn't work with stable networkmanager, kmplayer doesn't work with stable mplayer, krecipes doesn't work with stable sqlite,
kdebluetooth doesn't work with stable bluez, and the list goes on...

there will be a news item soon of it's removal

Some application to impact kde3.5 .... my proposal to fix last version
When a new release of application can't work with kde 3.5 (kde 3.5 don't work with) last release of application that work with kde 3.5, put them to slot 3.5 or depend of KDE3.5 install
In near future we have a complete system sloted and NOT maintained (same of another distro).

But how many years to maintain this 'sloted' system ?

[dmpogo]

I see two major point about maintenance of kde 3.5 in portage tree
1) no futur security update (announce of kde team) for kde 3.5 on all kde 3.5 official applications (same for all distributions)
2) how to maintain futur evolution of some package/kernel impacted kde 3.5 (this is a major point)

At the moment we are already dragging base-system behind for KDE3 (autoconf 2.64, try it, and notice that nothing using kdelibs-3 will build anymore).

knetworkmanager doesn't work with stable networkmanager, kmplayer doesn't work with stable mplayer, krecipes doesn't work with stable sqlite,
kdebluetooth doesn't work with stable bluez, and the list goes on...

there will be a news item soon of it's removal

Some application to impact kde3.5 .... my proposal to fix last version
When a new release of application can't work with kde 3.5 (kde 3.5 don't work with) last release of application that work with kde 3.5, put them to slot 3.5 or depend of KDE3.5 install
In near future we have a complete system sloted and NOT maintained (same of another distro).

But how many years to maintain this 'sloted' system ?

To some extend you don't have to maintain it - just 'package (i.e slot)' and store in an accessible and working repository. It will be up to users to have proper libraries to compile the stuff. But if this would be policy, it will extend to the libraries as well - user will have a chance to have say qt-3 also packaged and stored like that, older version of glibc, etc. That may not be feasibile over long run, but could be over medium long transitional period, which I would say - 2-3 years.

I think characteristic time in the upgrade process is a hardware useful life time, which in a real world (not hobbyist) deployment, I would say 5 years. That is, if I get new hardware say for university lab and set it up, I am looking for distro that would allow me to maintain similar setup for few years (say 5) into the future

[USTruck]

Thanks dmpogo.

How to report this to dev ?
How to establish a process to cover future gnome 3.x (or another graphical interface with major update ?)

[desultory]

Perhaps, before surging to action, you should contemplate the sunset.

[dmpogo]

Is there any forum to exchange KDE4 tricks and hints, suggest improvements ? As well as how to report bugs upstream (I already have a collection of 6-7 of them after few hours of with KDE4 )

[desultory]

Is there any forum to exchange KDE4 tricks and hints, suggest improvements ?

Either https://forums.gentoo.org/viewforum-f-13.html or https://forums.gentoo.org/viewforum-f-12.html, depending on context.

As well as how to report bugs upstream (I already have a collection of 6-7 of them after few hours of with KDE4 )

https://bugs.kde.org/

[rafo]

There is a KDE4 page on the Gentoo wiki (http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/KDE4). Right now it has a lot of outdated text on how KDE4 could be installed before it became stable in Portage. This page could be a place to collect various recipes. For example, we could have subtitles like

• Tweaks for "Classic" style
  Configuring font usage
  Workarounds for this
  Workarounds for that
  How to produce the panelbutton that causes all windows to be minimized
  Known bugs to avoid
  How to stay with genuine KDE3.5
  How to set up KDE4 and KDE3.5 in coexistence

[dmpogo]

There is a KDE4 page on the Gentoo wiki (http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/KDE4). Right now it has a lot of outdated text on how KDE4 could be installed before it became stable in Portage. This page could be a place to collect various recipes. For example, we could have subtitles like

• Tweaks for "Classic" style
  Configuring font usage
  Workarounds for this
  Workarounds for that
  How to produce the panelbutton that causes all windows to be minimized
  Known bugs to avoid
  How to stay with genuine KDE3.5
  How to set up KDE4 and KDE3.5 in coexistence

We really need something like that ! I also found this link and was very disappointed by its state.

[Cyker]

Perhaps, before surging to action, you should contemplate the sunset.

++

[rafo]

There is a KDE4 page on the Gentoo wiki (http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/KDE4). Right now it has a lot of outdated text on how KDE4 could be installed before it became stable in Portage. This page could be a place to collect various recipes. For example, we could have subtitles like

• Tweaks for "Classic" style
  Configuring font usage
  Workarounds for this
  Workarounds for that
  How to produce the panelbutton that causes all windows to be minimized
  Known bugs to avoid
  How to stay with genuine KDE3.5
  How to set up KDE4 and KDE3.5 in coexistence

We really need something like that ! I also found this link and was very disappointed by its state.

OK, I have revived the page now. So far I have mostly just entered the headings so please everyone, feel free to contribute.

[dmpogo]

OK, I have revived the page now. So far I have mostly just entered the headings so please everyone, feel free to contribute.

Excellent, thanks ! I'll be contributing as soon as I am near my KDE4 machine at home.

[petrjanda]

I use KDE 4.3 on FreeBSD 8 at work every day. (has nvidia card) with 2 monitors. And besides a couple of things due to the dual monitor setup, it has worked like a charm. Speeds fine, reliability pretty good (except occasional koqueror crashes on certain sites).

You guys who still diss it really need to pull your heads out of your asses, or you plain dont know what youre doing.

[dmpogo]

I use KDE 4.3 on FreeBSD 8 at work every day. (has nvidia card) with 2 monitors. And besides a couple of things due to the dual monitor setup, it has worked like a charm. Speeds fine, reliability pretty good (except occasional koqueror crashes on certain sites).

Your standards are low, I see. Pity if development would take those as the target.

[gerard27]

Since if you want to use KDE as your desktop you'll have to switch I started configuring kde-4.3.2.
Parts of the helpcenter is for kde3.
I want to have 4 different desktops with each its own wallpaper.
You have to do this in 3 different places.
First in the system settings you determine how many desktops you want.
Then you rightclick on an empty part of a desktop and you can enter a config to select a wallpaper.
But this sets the same for all 4 desktops.No way you can have each different here.
To accomplish that you have to go to the barely visible quarter circle in the top right.
Leftclick it and select "zoom out" in the dropdown.
Now you get to see your 4 desktops and you can configure them to your liking.
Of course you have to repeat this a couple of times because the process freezes on you.
I am very disappointed in kde.
Gerard.