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Is Gentoo dying?

Opinions, ideas and thoughts about Gentoo. Anything and everything about Gentoo except support questions.
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kernelOfTruth
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Post by kernelOfTruth » Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:20 pm

AllenJB wrote:For the most part "testing" packages are generally no less stable than those considered "stable" for the vast majority of people - there are some exceptions to this - baselayout 2 for example contains major changes. "Unstable" portage versions generally don't cause any issues, and when they have (I think this has only been the case on 1 occaision for me), the devs have been very helpful in sorting them out.
++

I can say from my experience in earlier times (2+ years earlier than now) using the ~amd64 / ~x86 branch wasn't that easy like it is today:

the most important difference compared to former times seems to be that everything has matured a LOT and (at least for me and by maturing I mean stability-wise and usability-wise) it's easier to work with an "bleeding edge" system than with a stable system where I would be forced to unmask several packages needed

there are still tricky updates like the expat-2 one but (fortunately) that doesn't occur all too often :wink:

gentoo isn't dying at all - I'd say it has some kind of (small) mid-life crisis :P
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Post by steveL » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:07 pm

yngwin wrote:
steveL wrote:Sure that's their right, the question is whether the recruit would get any explanation or even the chance to retry.
Of course they would get an explanation, and yes, the chance is given to retry later.
If as you say it could be about "personal problems" then that doesn't sound so good; the recruit might simply not get on with some of the people who have a say (whoever that group might be, clearly not whoever mentored them or their peers) and it's kind of hard to "fix" that, as well as it being irrelevant to how good their work is. IOW it starts to sound like the political, "brown-nosing" process that the other poster was questioning.
There is nothing like that going on in the recruitment process. Of course the Code of Conduct needs to be adhered to, as is the case everywhere in Gentoo. But the recruitment process is all about assessing (and where necessary improving) the recruit's knowledge and abilities as to the technical and organisational aspects of working as a Gentoo developer.
Thanks yngwin, that's all I wanted to hear :-)
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Post by djinnZ » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:38 pm

kernelOfTruth wrote:I can say from my experience in earlier times (2+ years earlier than now) using the ~amd64 / ~x86 branch wasn't that easy like it is today
I prefer to be careful in those exclamation (after i have write about this at the next update time i have found the problem of com_err/ss :lol:) but i full agree.
I have not see so much enhancements in the last year but never i have experienced similar stability, with any distribution, in the last 10 years.
A stability experienced by me only in the old unix mainframes, in fact (if only will be removed the law obblige to use M$ i will be very happy and forget the blaspheme at crashes, but this is only an hope and i can only pray for it :evil: ).
With a problematic hardware (processor issues and the need of the damned fglrx), with the most "delicate" profile (hardened) i was able in august to rebuilt from stage 3 a full working server and desktop gentoo without any error than the (peraps know, prevented and not so easy to solve) incompatibility between fglrx and latest hardened kernels (2.6.26/.27) at run time. And I am working without problems.
If this is not a big goal... gentoo is really dead. :twisted:

But for press and bloggers the only measure of the progress is if a new unutility is added, how much new versions or new installers must be dowloaded, if there are new icons sets and fonts and how much announces are on the main site. Sound crappy but this is the realty.
NeddySeagoon wrote:This is one of the better Gentoo April Fools
Because the message has not self-destroyed I must think than is not accepted as next april fool. :cry:
Last edited by djinnZ on Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by regomodo » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:14 pm

I've not been using Gentoo for long enough (8months) to have a good opinion but the fact we don't have the wiki anymore it certainly isn't going to help. Throughout the FOSS webosphere, Gentoo was renowned for the quality and breadth of its wiki.

I struggle to come to terms with the fact that there was no remote backup of it. Just can not believe it.
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Post by AllenJB » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:31 pm

regomodo wrote:I've not been using Gentoo for long enough (8months) to have a good opinion but the fact we don't have the wiki anymore it certainly isn't going to help. Throughout the FOSS webosphere, Gentoo was renowned for the quality and breadth of its wiki.

I struggle to come to terms with the fact that there was no remote backup of it. Just can not believe it.
The wiki is back up and has been for weeks now - http://gentoo-wiki.com - archived old wiki on http://gentoo-wiki.info

How many people do you know who take backups seriously for everything they should?
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Post by regomodo » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:42 pm

AllenJB wrote: The wiki is back up and has been for weeks now - http://gentoo-wiki.com - archived old wiki on http://gentoo-wiki.info

How many people do you know who take backups seriously for everything they should?
Ha, i also found that just after i made that post.

Who makes backups when they should? I certainly do...after losing about 1.5tb of data....over 3 separate incidents.
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Post by stmiller » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:07 pm

I don't think Gentoo is dying. However there is certainly a lot of momentum and press with distros that have new releases every 6-months.

By design this does not happen with Gentoo, so unfortunately there is not much buzz as with other distros in this sort of way.
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Post by steveL » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:46 am

stmiller wrote:I don't think Gentoo is dying. However there is certainly a lot of momentum and press with distros that have new releases every 6-months.

By design this does not happen with Gentoo, so unfortunately there is not much buzz as with other distros in this sort of way.
True. I don't see that as unfortunate though. Firstly Gentoo is for the cognoscenti, even if you're one of the kids who grew up with it. We don't need users who are into it for the "buzz" they're just a pita in the longer-term, and will move to the next thing that gets hype, especially when they realise the warnings they were given were for a reason, usually walking out with some stupid forum post and spreading bad vibes. Secondly, the real buzz of Gentoo is working with from-source stuff and interacting with upstream projects. Gentoo users have a good reputation ime, simply because they are willing to edit config files, and don't give up when things don't automatically work. The spirit of collaboration from these forums is also an inspiration.

There'll be more live CDs, and there are other projects downstream of Gentoo, like sysresccd, sabayon and funtoo; I'm sure there'll be others just like there have been in the past.

And no, Gentoo is most definitely not dying; everytime I run [topic=546828]update[/topic] I'm amazed how much movement there has been in the tree. The pace has definitely picked up in the last 2 years, and the social aspects seem to be improving, so in fact I'd say Gentoo is actually getting healthier as a project.
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Post by tylerwylie » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:55 am

AllenJB wrote:
tylerwylie wrote:Gentoo isn't dieing, it's more or less being morphed though into an enthusiasts' OS.
What makes you think of it as an enthusiasts OS? While it is and always will be aimed at the more technically minded purely by being a from-source distro, I think Gentoo is very easy to use and work with.

I'd choose it over any other distro in most situations. Its binary package system makes it awesome for servers where you want to test on one machine and install to a live system, and lower powred laptops where compiling on the machine itself can be slow. It's awesome for a desktop because I get exactly the setup I want (pure ALSA with OSS emulation for sound, for example - none of the daemons I'd be forced to install with other distros). And unlike every other distro I've used, it's never overwritten any of my configuration without asking me first.
Fedora doesn't overwrite my configs, instead I get rpmnews :). After you get the Gentoo install done it is sweet, I still prefer Fedora's defaults... a matter of taste.
AllenJB wrote:
It's very slender and slim but if you want to install 3rd party software, support may not be there.
You mean except for the entire ebuild system which means that it's easy to find, update or modify packages produced by other people around the internet in any one of hundreds of overlays. And if you can't find one, it usually takes no more than half an hour to knock up an ebuild for most packages.
I mean when you're running an EMS and they only support Red Hat/Novell/Debian, try to get support for their product using Gentoo, they'll just ignore you.
AllenJB wrote:
For desktops, binary packages included in distributions are being built with heavily optimized code, and when Gentoo used to zip around, you have to prelink and preload what you can for it to come close to some of the other binary distributions, (Fedora and OpenSUSE are very quick in this regard)
Because they do the prelinking and preloading too. Exactly the same techniques. The only difference is that with Gentoo you know what and how things are being done because you have to set them up yourself. This has and always will be the case.
I did prelink and preload in Gentoo, and the result wasn't nearly as fast as what I got in other binary distros.
AllenJB wrote: As for heavily optimized - don't forget that with Gentoo you compile for your exact CPU - binary distros will compile for the lowest common denominator (all amd64 binary distros have to compile for generic x64, anything else is most likely i686 or worse). On Gentoo (with GCC 4.3) you can use march=native.
On Gentoo, the only machine I compile with march=i686 is my Eee and my server, where I compile on one machine then install to another (both compile hosts are Xen VMs - the server is a Xen VM too)[/quote]Yet with optimizations it's still not faster? Fedora is optimized for Pentium 4's, where it can take advantage of those optimizations.
I really enjoyed using Gentoo on my laptop, but for now it's been relegated to servers, as the documentation fades the users will fade, as that was Gentoo's BIGGEST bonus. If you had an issue, someone else has had it before you, and wrote down HOW to fix it and put it on a website that was easy to find. This isn't the case as much anymore, and that's when Gentoo's lost it's golden edge... the community waned.
What's all this about documentation fading? Yes - the wiki died, but the vast majority of articles from the old wiki were saved (http://gentoo-wiki.info) and a new one is being built in its place (http://gentoo-wiki.com). From what I've seen the new wiki already has some high quality articles that were never on the old wiki (I've written some of them myself) and there are more foreign language wiki's than there used to be too.

Frankly, the death of the old wiki was long overdue in my opinion - while there were some good articles on there, the vast majority of it was unindexed, out of date, incorrect, used bad practices or just badly written. Most of the good articles are already on the new wiki - rewritten and updated.[/quote]The documentation is there, but when it comes to newer software, and newer projects it just isn't what it used to be.
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Is Gentoo dead?

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Post by SnEptUne » Thu May 14, 2009 12:30 pm

I have been wondering ever since the forum isn't as active as it used to be, but is Gentoo dead? There are definitely sign that it is going downhill, for example:

Bugs reports are not even assigned after being submitted for over a week,
portage is not growing at the rate as it used to be,
Gentoo's developer pages are being abandoned,
Gentoo Wiki is still being "rebuilt", and
custom overlays are not being maintained as it used to be.

Or am I just being paranoid? I really like Gentoo and hope it will last for as long as Ubuntu.[/list]
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Post by Frustie » Thu May 14, 2009 1:28 pm

why not use the "quick search" bar, type "gentoo dead" read all those threads and come up with a nice answer that suits you
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Post by alfagamma81 » Thu May 14, 2009 1:28 pm

If that day comes, I smash my computer straight to the wall and switch back to windows.. :cry:

REally, I have tried almost every major(and non-major) distros out there, and Gentoo is love at first sight. It feels like your own distro.
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Post by albright » Thu May 14, 2009 2:14 pm

I smash my computer straight to the wall and switch back to windows
I suggest it will be more satisfying if you do that in reverse order :)
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Re: Is Gentoo dead?

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Post by AllenJB » Thu May 14, 2009 5:02 pm

SnEptUne wrote:I have been wondering ever since the forum isn't as active as it used to be, but is Gentoo dead? There are definitely sign that it is going downhill, for example:

Bugs reports are not even assigned after being submitted for over a week,
Not all bugs will get immediately assigned. But there definitely are people working on it. At the moment, many members of the community are in the middle or revision / exams, so have reduced time available to work on things - this affects all open source projects every year.
portage is not growing at the rate as it used to be,
I'm assuming you mean the number of packages in the tree isn't increasing. This is a good thing. The current number of packages is, I believe, about right. Too many packages in the tree and you'll have too many of them not being properly maintained.

There are many overlays where experimental and unsupported packages are being continually developed - both official and unofficial.

Check the gentoo.org front page or the -dev-announce mailing list for the "Automated Package Removal and Addition Tracker" messages - looking at the past few weeks there has generally been many more packages added than have been removed.
Gentoo's developer pages are being abandoned,
The project pages have never really been kept up-to-date. This is an ongoing issue. There are moves within the developer community starting to happen that I think will see this situation improve.

Documentation is being continually maintained and updated.
Gentoo Wiki is still being "rebuilt", and
The Gentoo Wiki is a totally unofficial project. The owner and admins are not Gentoo Developers and it has no direct links to the Gentoo developers. It was a conscious decision not to try and restore the entire content of the old wiki - this is already available in archives and such. The old content was, in my opinion, largely out of date or bad in other ways. In many ways the loss of the database was actually a blessing, in my opinion.

New content is constantly being added to the wiki (including content recovered from articles from the old wiki).
custom overlays are not being maintained as it used to be.
This is up to the overlay maintainers. Most overlays are completely unofficial. I run one (a very small one that's basically there because it's not hard for me to make my overlay publicly available) and I update its contents when I get round to it. I do provide support when people contact me about issues, but those cases are very rare.

The official overlays are very much active - there may be some which are not very active, but largely this is not the case. These overlays are generally used for proxy maintainership and experimental packages / eclass changes.
Or am I just being paranoid? I really like Gentoo and hope it will last for as long as Ubuntu.
Largely developers do not have the time to go out of their way to keep users informed of every change they make. Keep an eye on the gentoo.org front page, as well and planet.gentoo.org and planet.larrythecow.org (unofficial user blogs planet) and of course the -devel and -dev-announce mailing lists. Gentoo development is as active as ever, in my opinion, and that's not likely to change any time soon.
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Post by asturm » Thu May 14, 2009 5:26 pm

Well, during the last few weeks I submitted 4 bugs including patches to bugzilla. 2 of them were in the tree only several hours later, the other 2 after some days (one got into an overlay first).

erm... no, Gentoo isn't dead.
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Post by Kollin » Thu May 14, 2009 6:05 pm

Ugh... not again... :?
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Post by kernelOfTruth » Thu May 14, 2009 7:22 pm

just freaking REVIVE google forums search index building

then there will be much more LIFE on them :!:
https://github.com/kernelOfTruth/ZFS-fo ... scCD-4.9.0
https://github.com/kernelOfTruth/pulsea ... zer-ladspa

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Post by engineermdr » Thu May 14, 2009 7:35 pm

Agreed. I find it very difficult to find anything in the forums anymore without google searches.
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Post by pilla » Thu May 14, 2009 8:26 pm

dead or dying, I've merged some posts.
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Post by d2_racing » Thu May 14, 2009 9:45 pm

mdr wrote:Agreed. I find it very difficult to find anything in the forums anymore without google searches.
In fact, I need to search directly inside the forum or if I'm lucky, then I can find some bugzilla about my current problem.
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Post by Kollin » Tue May 19, 2009 9:25 pm

Gentoo is NOT dying my bug in bugzilla was solved for about an hour:

Code: Select all

Opened: 2009-05-19 19:53
patch posted on 2009-05-19 20:58
:lol:


http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=270483
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Post by SnEptUne » Thu May 21, 2009 12:45 am

Kollin wrote:Gentoo is NOT dying my bug in bugzilla was solved for about an hour:

Code: Select all

Opened: 2009-05-19 19:53
patch posted on 2009-05-19 20:58
:lol:


http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=270483
Unfortunately, the bug I filed still hasn't been assigned nor commented yet. :(

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=269080

It would to make stepmania compilable with ffmpeg-0.5 and fixed the popular video crashing problem. I will do regression test to make video shows up instead of black screen when I have time.
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Post by jba » Thu May 28, 2009 4:26 am

kernelOfTruth wrote:just freaking REVIVE google forums search index building

then there will be much more LIFE on them :!:
I can not second this enough. The lack of SEO towards the gentoo forums is hurting gentoo more than anything else right now.

(not to mention that it makes it impossible to find anything)
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Post by d2_racing » Thu May 28, 2009 11:03 am

In fact, right now, if I have a bug, I can rely only on google + gentoo bugzilla, because for an unknown reason, http://bugs.gentoo.org/ is still working pretty well with google.

I have some problem when I use the search engine of the forum.
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Post by desultory » Fri May 29, 2009 5:56 am

d2_racing wrote:In fact, right now, if I have a bug, I can rely only on google + gentoo bugzilla, because for an unknown reason, http://bugs.gentoo.org/ is still working pretty well with google.
Because Google, and most anything else, can crawl bugs.gentoo.org subject to certain restrictions.
d2_racing wrote:I have some problem when I use the search engine of the forum.
We [topic=33345]know[/topic].
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