Discussion on user contributions to Gentoo: issues/proposals

[Kasumi_Ninja]

Well, I think this is the problem with Gentoo (and the reason it has problems attracting developers). It should become easier for non developers to help out. The bar is simply to high right now. I asked a Debian developer how he become one. He said "Simple, I just send a appliance form and in no-time a was a developer". (Debian has currently around 1000 devs).

Aniruddha, I'm not picking on you personally here, but I'd like to use your experience as a launching point if I could.

Simply put, just filing a few bugs and asking for access to write to the front page isn't gonna be enough to become a developer. Assuming that's all you did.

To be clear I didn't aspire to become a dev. However these example do show a real problem that can turn potential developers away.

That is the exact argument I am trying to debunk. The attempts were nothing special.

There are policies in place for editing the front page. We can't just let anyone who comes along start making changes.

As far as the bugs, everyone files them, and they get ignored. Even developers who files bugs get theirs ignored and we have to track down devs sometimes to fix them or let us fix them for them.

Anyway, I think your expectations were extremely high for what would happen.

If expecting an answer is an extremely high expectation I agree with you. Furthermore I do think that this is the attitude that is causing problems for Gentoo. I think we should learn from other open source projecst. Opensuse for example allows editing of their website (it's wiki based). We should strive to answer all new bugs withing 24hrs (or 48 or 72, take your pick) and assign them to the proper herd.

[AllenJB]

If expecting an answer is an extremely high expectation I agree with you. Furthermore I do think that this is the attitude that is causing problems for Gentoo. I think we should learn from other open source projecst. Opensuse for example allows editing of their website (it's wiki based). We should strive to answer all new bugs withing 24hrs (or 48 or 72, take your pick) and assign them to the proper herd.

Opensuse appears to allow no more editing of their site than Gentoo does - they have a wiki in the main site navigation, but that's the only extre feature. A Gentoo Wiki already exists, albeit as a user run project.

What about existing bugs? Should we prioritise a new bug other an existing bug, where the old bug is a security issue or commonly encountered issue while the new bug is simple a package bump or new package request. That system simply doesn't work.

The Debian developer recruitment process doesn't look that different from Gentoo's. The web site process initially looks slightly different, but I believe you could contribute to Gentoo's website in the same manner by submitting changes to Bugzilla - there's certainly documentation on gentoo.org/doc for reproducing the documentation locally (I did this myself when I wanted to see how Gentoo's XML stuff worked). Either way all changes still have to be vetted as far as I can see. They do explicitly state on that page that developer applicants are expected to have been actively involved with the project for a period of time.

[node_one]

I am hoping the new guide/document you (developers) are working on will answer many of these questions and communicate to future contributors what their expectations should be. I do not expect to be able to address and change anything, but a little more clarity would be nice.

[steveL]

That is the exact argument I am trying to debunk. The attempts were nothing special.

There are policies in place for editing the front page. We can't just let anyone who comes along start making changes.

As far as the bugs, everyone files them, and they get ignored. Even developers who files bugs get theirs ignored and we have to track down devs sometimes to fix them or let us fix them for them.

Anyway, I think your expectations were extremely high for what would happen.

If expecting an answer is an extremely high expectation I agree with you. Furthermore I do think that this is the attitude that is causing problems for Gentoo.

I agree; simply put devs don't see it as their job to welcome involvement from newbs. There has been a noticeable trend of looking down on users, too, although that seems to be waning, thankfully (at least in the overt sense.)

I think we should learn from other open source projecst. Opensuse for example allows editing of their website (it's wiki based). We should strive to answer all new bugs withing 24hrs (or 48 or 72, take your pick) and assign them to the proper herd.

Aniruddha, I think you'd be a good bug-wrangler. Using the bug-wranglers link on bugs.gentoo.org is quite relaxing when you're winding down (most of the time I don't have anything to add, or am not in the mood to try to reproduce, but occasionally I'll try and point out something I think the user is missing. It's been a while tho.)

Yngwin asked two questions: would you like to be a dev and are you trying to become one. At one point I'd have answered yes, but I'd have to answer no now. The primary reason is the attitude you mentioned; I find it anathema to what I love about Free software. I could never commit to a project with such a strong anti-user current in it. (And no, I don't care that you're stressed; so's the ROTW; we manage to work with each other without that nastiness; so get over it, go to your lectures/classes and learn to take time out, not take out your frustration on joe user.)

Coupled with that there's the utterly crap bash the devs use, all the while acting superior. Simply put I don't respect them collectively on a technical level (and obviously they're not exactly socially adept); not only do they tolerate such rubbish in the central tool they use, they actually condone it and seem to revel in looking down on the language, despite it having been the basis of their distro since the beginning. And it only makes them look incredibly stupid imo (eg: when you have to explain the basics to them on irc, because they're too stuck-up to learn. They come up with some idiocy about writing simple code, to cover their woeful ignorance of stuff I learnt within 3 months of hanging out in #bash.)

The primary thing that keeps me with Gentoo is the user-community. If it weren't for that, I'd have gone over to sourcemage ages ago. The secondary thing is portage, which I love.

Note: my comments about the devs are about them as a group, based on lots of experience. Obviously there are exceptions (especially the moderators, if we're talking in terms of groups) and I accept that I have mostly seen the vocal ones. On one level I accept the "lots of quiet devs are beavering away, you just don't hear from them" argument: the technical level, since the distro does continue to move forward wrt ebuilds being maintained. On the social level, I just think "you're a bunch of spineless gits who haven't got the cojones to stand up to nasty behaviour, even when it's blatantly hurting your project."

No doubt I'll get flamed to death for this post, but it's a truthful summary of how I feel about Gentoo devs as a group, based on their actions (hate mail from people you don't know isn't nice, especially when they then blank any response, and conveniently ignore the elephants thumping around the room.) And believe me, I never wanted to think that. Maybe things will get better; I certainly hope so. AFAIC the devs should be humbly learning from their users. Gentoo users have to be the most knowledgeable group in computing, many of them working in the industry, and at the same time they're incredibly helpful, to each other and to newbs.

[Kasumi_Ninja]

If expecting an answer is an extremely high expectation I agree with you. Furthermore I do think that this is the attitude that is causing problems for Gentoo. I think we should learn from other open source projecst. Opensuse for example allows editing of their website (it's wiki based). We should strive to answer all new bugs withing 24hrs (or 48 or 72, take your pick) and assign them to the proper herd.

Opensuse appears to allow no more editing of their site than Gentoo does - they have a wiki in the main site navigation, but that's the only extre feature. A Gentoo Wiki already exists, albeit as a user run project..

Not true, users can edit important aspect of the main site (notice the edit button on the right side): http://en.opensuse.org/Download

What about existing bugs? Should we prioritise a new bug other an existing bug, where the old bug is a security issue or commonly encountered issue while the new bug is simple a package bump or new package request. That system simply doesn't work..

Try tot think out of the box. Involve users in bug wrangling. Write a short instruction, and post bugwranglers wanted on the website. I'm sure this will attract the needed bug wranglers.

The Debian developer recruitment process doesn't look that different from Gentoo's. The web site process initially looks slightly different, but I believe you could contribute to Gentoo's website in the same manner by submitting changes to Bugzilla - there's certainly documentation on gentoo.org/doc for reproducing the documentation locally (I did this myself when I wanted to see how Gentoo's XML stuff worked). Either way all changes still have to be vetted as far as I can see. They do explicitly state on that page that developer applicants are expected to have been actively involved with the project for a period of time.

According the website this is true (although I heard a different story from a Debian dev, but he applied some years ago). However this is only interesting to prove a point. Now lets try to learn something from Debian. What are they doing differently (and better imo)?

1) The Debian wiki. This is an officially supported wiki where everyone can contribute
2) The Debian website is available through cvs and even non-developers may submit changes.
3) Communication wise the response is quicker and more friendly.

[Kasumi_Ninja]

Aniruddha, I think you'd be a good bug-wrangler. Using the bug-wranglers link on bugs.gentoo.org is quite relaxing when you're winding down (most of the time I don't have anything to add, or am not in the mood to try to reproduce, but occasionally I'll try and point out something I think the user is missing. It's been a while tho.)

I already follow the bug wranglers rss. But lack of clarity (about what to do) and the attitude displayed by some devs doesn't work motivational.

The primary thing that keeps me with Gentoo is the user-community. If it weren't for that, I'd have gone over to sourcemage ages ago. The secondary thing is portage, which I love.

The Gentoo community is the best, the moderates also are very knowledgeable and friendly. Thumbs up for the community

Maybe things will get better; I certainly hope so. AFAIC the devs should be humbly learning from their users. Gentoo users have to be the most knowledgeable group in computing, many of them working in the industry, and at the same time they're incredibly helpful, to each other and to newbs.

I feel the same.

[beandog]

I wish there was some way I could communicate to you guys how to effect change.

Here's the basic formula, though:

1) Want to change things
2) Don't quit.

Most of you have #1 down just fine.

[Kasumi_Ninja]

I wish there was some way I could communicate to you guys how to effect change.

Here's the basic formula, though:

1) Want to change things
2) Don't quit.

Most of you have #1 down just fine.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The thing is I don't have the time to pursue change within Gentoo (I have my own company I easily work 60 hrs).. I just want to help where I can and when I can help. If I don't like the attitude I leave it's that simple.

P.S.
beandog I must say I appreciate your constructive answers. They are an example how communication should be.

[beandog]

I wish there was some way I could communicate to you guys how to effect change.

Here's the basic formula, though:

1) Want to change things
2) Don't quit.

Most of you have #1 down just fine.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The thing is I don't have the time to pursue change within Gentoo (I have my own company I easily work 60 hrs).. I just want to help where I can and when I can help. If I don't like the attitude I leave it's that simple.

Thanks, in fact, I meant to say this earlier, but thanks for clearing up that you weren't on the track to becoming a dev .. it obviously changes a lot of the previous posts geared towards you.

P.S.
beandog I must say I appreciate your constructive answers. They are an example how communication should be.

Thanks man, you have no idea how close I get sometimes to just writing off entire conversations like this and give up trying to help at all. That comment really grounded me though, and brought me back. Thanks, man.

Edit: I just realized the irony of not taking my own advice. Fail.

Also, I'm working on a Gentoo wiki entry right now on how users get involved.

[node_one]

A Gentoo Wiki already exists, albeit as a user run project.

Also, I'm working on a Gentoo wiki entry right now on how users get involved.

Questions:
1. Is this the same article/doc that yngwin is working on?
2. Whether or not it is the same, why are you publishing it on the Gentoo Wiki. You are a developer, right? You should be able to publish to Gentoo Documentation.

[beandog]

A Gentoo Wiki already exists, albeit as a user run project.

Also, I'm working on a Gentoo wiki entry right now on how users get involved.

Questions:
1. Is this the same article/doc that yngwin is working on?

We're working together on one

2. Whether or not it is the same, why are you publishing it on the Gentoo Wiki. You are a developer, right? You should be able to publish to Gentoo Documentation.

I like writing wiki articles, it's simpler to edit. It'll probably never need to be an official doc, though we could probably slap it up there if we wanted to, we'll see. Either way, I can move it. Not a big deal.

[Kasumi_Ninja]

P.S.
beandog I must say I appreciate your constructive answers. They are an example how communication should be.

Thanks man, you have no idea how close I get sometimes to just writing off entire conversations like this and give up trying to help at all. That comment really grounded me though, and brought me back. Thanks, man.

Edit: I just realized the irony of not taking my own advice. Fail.

This only proves your human On the other hand it must be said that users can be a pia too. By posting rude, demanding bugs for example.

[zyko]

I guess it is becomming clear that the problem is not a lack of ways for users to contribute. The number of possibilities seems to be too large, actually.

Example:

There are policies in place for editing the front page. We can't just let anyone who comes along start making changes.

[...]

Simply put, just filing a few bugs and asking for access to write to the front page isn't gonna be enough to become a developer. Assuming that's all you did.

Understandably so! This statement, however, points out what does not work. It does not tell Anirrudha what actually does work, so he's left with n-1 possibilities to proceed.

Hypothesis: The likelyhood of a favorable outcome increases as the number of possibilities (for a specific user to contribute) decreases from n to exactly 1. In this example, someone who is directly or indirectly able to make changes to the Gentoo front page should have contacted Anirrudha personally and arranged a concrete way to publish his text (and if everything up to the good-night kiss went well, arrange a second date on the spot!). There is a recruiters subproject in devrel that sounds fitting.

It might seem simple to you, beandog, but it obviously isn't transparent for us users.

[Kasumi_Ninja]

I guess it is becomming clear that the problem is not a lack of ways for users to contribute. The number of possibilities seems to be too large, actually.

Example:

There are policies in place for editing the front page. We can't just let anyone who comes along start making changes.

[...]

Simply put, just filing a few bugs and asking for access to write to the front page isn't gonna be enough to become a developer. Assuming that's all you did.

Understandably so! This statement, however, points out what does not work. It does not tell Anirrudha what actually does work, so he's left with n-1 possibilities to proceed.

Hypothesis: The likelyhood of a favorable outcome increases as the number of possibilities (for a specific user to contribute) decreases from n to exactly 1. In this example, someone who is directly or indirectly able to make changes to the Gentoo front page should have contacted Anirrudha personally and arranged a concrete way to publish his text (and if everything up to the good-night kiss went well, arrange a second date on the spot!). There is a recruiters subproject in devrel that sounds fitting..

I think this is a good analysis. I want to add that I not only I have -1 possibilities, I also have -1 reasons to file another bug and offer my help.

Update:
I just got the following message in my inbox:

Code: Select all

je_fro@gentoo.org changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|NEW                         |RESOLVED
         Resolution|                            |UPSTREAM

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234352

I really think there is no excuser that no one has taken the courtesy to even answer to a bugreport with a patch for a serious bug in ATI-drivers. It's not only about my effort being in vain. I made this patch for my follow Gentoo users in order to help them solve a frustrating screen corruption problem with ATI drivers and Wine. For now I'm done with Gentoo, this clearly leads nowhere.

@beandog
I'm sorry, you mean well but I do think Gentoo's problems are quite large and won't be fixed anytime soon (see also: http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/09/gentoo-2 ... tions.html ). I mean developers of the most important Gentoo pieces aren't with Gentoo anymore (baselayout / openrc / genkernel / catalyst).

[steveL]

I wish there was some way I could communicate to you guys how to effect change.

Here's the basic formula, though:

1) Want to change things
2) Don't quit.

Most of you have #1 down just fine.

You're missing the point, man: why is it such a struggle to contribute? Fix that on your side, and we'll gladly contribute loads.

@Aniruddha: Chill out man, openrc and baselayout2 will always be well supported in Gentoo, the move to external just allows the project to be OS-agnostic, which is a good thing imo. It's perhaps the most significant Gentoo 'child' project around, although I know Roy works on some dhcp thing as well.

As for your bug, the point is it's fixed upstream and I'd imagine (hope?) anyone installing would get one without the bug. I agree a warning would be useful, though.

[beandog]

I wish there was some way I could communicate to you guys how to effect change.

Here's the basic formula, though:

1) Want to change things
2) Don't quit.

Most of you have #1 down just fine.

You're missing the point, man: why is it such a struggle to contribute? Fix that on your side, and we'll gladly contribute loads.

I just realized that there should be a clear distinction here.

Developing != contributing ... or at least, I've been looking at them synonymously, that is, becoming a developer is the same thing.

Everything I've pretty much been harping on has been how it's not hard to become a dev, given the way it's pretty informal.

But in all honesty, just *contributing* something, well .. that's a pretty generic term, could mean anything. And to be honest, I have no idea how hard it is for some thing. Before being a dev, I never did anything except work on the Gentoo wiki a lot and file some bugs. That worked fine for me, but I never tried hard to push anything into the tree. I don't really work on the wiki anymore, but now I still file bugs, fix them, write in my blog, run Planet Larry, maintain Planet Gentoo and a host of other crap.

I guess I would need you guys to get specific on where its hard to contribute before I can accurately help. Please note that any and all generalized statements will be completely ignored, since I don't have divine powers to make sweeping changes in policy, attitude, and structure.

[steveL]

I wish there was some way I could communicate to you guys how to effect change.

Here's the basic formula, though:

1) Want to change things
2) Don't quit.

Most of you have #1 down just fine.

You're missing the point, man: why is it such a struggle to contribute? Fix that on your side, and we'll gladly contribute loads.

I just realized that there should be a clear distinction here.

Developing != contributing ... or at least, I've been looking at them synonymously, that is, becoming a developer is the same thing.

Well ideally someone who consistently contributes should be actively recruited, if they have the time and motivation, not dissuaded by their experience of trying to help out. I'm not even sure how much time is really required, so long as one bug-fixes the packages one is a maintainer for. In this case, someone like Aniruddha should imo have already been invited to be a trainee bug-wrangler (or there should be a page like the WINE triage one asking people to help in that capacity) irrespective of whether he has a job or is a student with free time. The time he spends already could be more useful to Gentoo, if for instance he had the ability to assign bugs as and when he sees the need.

Everything I've pretty much been harping on has been how it's not hard to become a dev, given the way it's pretty informal.

But in all honesty, just *contributing* something, well .. that's a pretty generic term, could mean anything. And to be honest, I have no idea how hard it is for some thing. Before being a dev, I never did anything except work on the Gentoo wiki a lot and file some bugs. That worked fine for me, but I never tried hard to push anything into the tree. I don't really work on the wiki anymore, but now I still file bugs, fix them, write in my blog, run Planet Larry, maintain Planet Gentoo and a host of other crap.

I guess I would need you guys to get specific on where its hard to contribute before I can accurately help. Please note that any and all generalized statements will be completely ignored, since I don't have divine powers to make sweeping changes in policy, attitude, and structure.

Hmm well, as I said, I think it's an attitude issue, which can only be changed over time, and things do appear to be progressing; yours is exemplary. Please feel free to demonstrate it to other devs in the forums they use, especially the dev m-l and bugzilla.

The real issue to me is that devs don't pick each other up on bad behaviour in the medium where it happens (if at all.) This results in a user-hostile environment, which is bad for recruitment as well as bad for feedback in general. Simply doing so would make it clear to all that bad behaviour is not representative of the devs as a whole, as well as reassure any user feeling put upon (who if new, is far more likely to turn away from Gentoo, than not quit.)

But fair enough, it's not something specific. It certainly feels tangible to a user though.

[Kasumi_Ninja]

[
....
someone like Aniruddha should imo have already been invited to be a trainee bug-wrangler (or there should be a page like the WINE triage one asking people to help in that capacity) irrespective of whether he has a job or is a student with free time. The time he spends already could be more useful to Gentoo, if for instance he had the ability to assign bugs as and when he sees the need.
....
.

Wine is a good example, I already maintain about two dozen games for the Wine Appdb. I've set myself a goal to process each new test data within 24 hrs. Furthermore I'm also a crossover game advocate and help them to test Half-Life episode2.

[node_one]

I guess I would need you guys to get specific on where its hard to contribute before I can accurately help. Please note that any and all generalized statements will be completely ignored, since I don't have divine powers to make sweeping changes in policy, attitude, and structure.

What can you do, and more importantly what do you want to do? I am asking so I do not ask for any "generic" stuff that would just get ignored.

[desultory]

What can you do, and more importantly what do you want to do?

Did you realize that you have asked of him the same question he posed to you?

I am asking so I do not ask for any "generic" stuff that would just get ignored.

Being an ebuild developer who is involved in several projects, he may well be able to refer you to an individual or group with which you could coordinate your efforts and perhaps recruit you.

[beandog]

What can you do, and more importantly what do you want to do?

Did you realize that you have asked of him the same question he posed to you?

I didn't really understand the question, so I just figured I'd come back to it later. I was gonna just go ahead and list all the stuff I'm working on, where I'm involved ...

I am asking so I do not ask for any "generic" stuff that would just get ignored.

Being an ebuild developer who is involved in several projects, he may well be able to refer you to an individual or group with which you could coordinate your efforts and perhaps recruit you.

... but ^^ pretty much sums it up nicely what I'm trying to do.

[node_one]

desultory,

I was only asking because, for example, if I ask "Could you document the changes that EAPI-2 brings to ebuild development in the Gentoo Development Guide? What about EAPI-0, EAPI-1, EAPI-prefix, etc?"

a) beandog may not be able to do anything about that. He may not have access, permission or whatever.
b) The question(s) could be too generic and just get ignored.

... Please note that any and all generalized statements will be completely ignored ...

c) beandog may not be interested in doing anything with the Development Guide. As I have read on this forum before, if a developer is not interested in doing something, they will likely ignore any requests for it.

I hope this makes it clearer why I am was asking.
______________________________________

Being an ebuild developer who is involved in several projects, he may well be able to refer you to an individual or group with which you could coordinate your efforts and perhaps recruit you.

Referrals could be helpful. I have no idea how one should properly contact a project, at least by email. Do I email the project/herd, the lead(s), somebody else in the project, or the gentoo-dev list first? I wish projects had a "Communications officer", someone(s) who is willing to be the appointed first point of contact for a project and be willing to receive unsolicited email, etc. and relay that to the rest of the project, if necessary, and so on. Anyway, I am getting into things we cannot change, so never mind.

I believe I addressed recruitment in this [post=5212658]earlier post[/post]. Let me know if you (plural) want me to clarify anything.
______________________________________

... Developing != contributing ...

<IMHO> I agree, a developer has access to the tree, their tree, and a contributor does not. A contributor submits patches, new content, etc. to the developer and (s)he chooses whether or not to adopt them. Contributors work out-of-tree and have less responsibilities, if any. However, good contributors can save development time. The more the contributors know about what the developers are doing, the more effective they (contributors) can be. Better documentation makes better contributors. </IMHO>

[beandog]

desultory,

I was only asking because, for example, if I ask "Could you document the changes that EAPI-2 brings to ebuild development in the Gentoo Development Guide? What about EAPI-0, EAPI-1, EAPI-prefix, etc?"

Man, if I could wrap my brain around it, I would. I'll leave it to someone smarter. Seriously, my head hurts trying to figure some of it out. Where's the freaking docs ....

<snip>
I have no idea how one should properly contact a project, at least by email. Do I email the project/herd, the lead(s), somebody else in the project, or the gentoo-dev list first? I wish projects had a "Communications officer", someone(s) who is willing to be the appointed first point of contact for a project and be willing to receive unsolicited email, etc. and relay that to the rest of the project, if necessary, and so on. Anyway, I am getting into things we cannot change, so never mind.

Actually, you nailed it *right* on the head things that I'm trying to address. Any doc that covers "how to contribute" should also cover "how to actually contact someone." Now see, that is *exactly* the stuff I'm talking about, that to me (a dev) seems totally common sense, but to a user it's a huge nebulous cloud that isn't really obvious on how to navigate. I'll make sure I address that issue in my little writeup.

... Developing != contributing ...

<IMHO> I agree, a developer has access to the tree, their tree, and a contributor does not. A contributor submits patches, new content, etc. to the developer and (s)he chooses whether or not to adopt them. Contributors work out-of-tree and have less responsibilities, if any. However, good contributors can save development time. The more the contributors know about what the developers are doing, the more effective they (contributors) can be. Better documentation makes better contributors. </IMHO>

I couldn't agree more (and you really shouldn't be so hesitant to speak up, you're spot on).

I'm all about good documentation. It's stuff like that that I need to hear about, because I forget what its like. Just like I said before -- tell me where you're (specifically) hitting a wall, and I'll help explain and document it. Not knowing how to communicate. That's specific. I can handle that one.

Thanks, node_one.

[tanderson]

desultory,

I was only asking because, for example, if I ask "Could you document the changes that EAPI-2 brings to ebuild development in the Gentoo Development Guide? What about EAPI-0, EAPI-1, EAPI-prefix, etc?"

Man, if I could wrap my brain around it, I would. I'll leave it to someone smarter. Seriously, my head hurts trying to figure some of it out. Where's the freaking docs ....

The bug against devmanual for EAPI 2 has all the information. It's just a matter of getting it approved and merged in.

[desultory]

I was only asking because, for example, if I ask "Could you document the changes that EAPI-2 brings to ebuild development in the Gentoo Development Guide? What about EAPI-0, EAPI-1, EAPI-prefix, etc?"

While I realize that question was likely just an example, that information is actually available, though from other sources, with any actual impact on work flow not being directly addressed. References to one or both or to app-doc/pms should probably be added.

Referrals could be helpful. I have no idea how one should properly contact a project, at least by email. Do I email the project/herd, the lead(s), somebody else in the project, or the gentoo-dev list first? I wish projects had a "Communications officer", someone(s) who is willing to be the appointed first point of contact for a project and be willing to receive unsolicited email, etc. and relay that to the rest of the project, if necessary, and so on. Anyway, I am getting into things we cannot change, so never mind.

In theory, that is part of the purpose of the User Relations project. In practice, it is typically a matter of some minor investigation to determine whom to contact and via what media, the process of which can be simplified by being a member of the project.

I believe I addressed recruitment in this [post=5212658]earlier post[/post]. Let me know if you (plural) want me to clarify anything.

Indeed, though the implication that recruiting was a possibility was deliberate. Not everyone who joins the project expected to be recruited