[NEWS] 2008.0_beta2 released

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cyblord · Post by **cyblord** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:34 am

I guess we'll find out tomorrow what happens. I'm gonna go ahead an install beta 2 on my new thinkpad if 2008.0 doesn't come out.

NathanZachary · Post by **NathanZachary** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:20 am

AidanJT wrote:
dberkholz wrote:The installer is worked on by the installer team, which only has one person overlapping with the releng team. As far as I know, that person isn't doing anything to hold up the release.
The installer has been nothing but a nuisance since day one, with it being an integral part of the 'installer' image releases that have to coincide with the release schedule, either delays need to be made to resolve it's bugs, or throwing it out as is would explain why it's so completely useless. Either way, it's not a good situation, and my original statement that it should have been left out of stable releases until it's actually fit for it's purpose, still stands.

I don't know if the GTK+ / GUI / LiveCD / installer, or whatever else you would like to call it, has been a complete nuisance. I'm glad that it is an option for new users, but personally I don't think it is very Gentoo-esque. In my opinion, and I have no numbers to back up this claim, the majority of people who would really like to use Gentoo and who would get the most out of the Gentoo experience, will want to install via the CLI. If that would boost efficiency in the release cycle, it might be something to consider. However, I think it's wonderful that there are those individuals that have devoted so much time to creating the installer and if they want to continue, that's great too.

cyblord · Post by **cyblord** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:39 am

Ahh... screw it. I'm installing beta2 now

rgk · Post by **rgk** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:15 am

cyblord wrote:Ahh... screw it. I'm installing beta2 now

pfft its only 3:14 am here, give it a few hours when normal people might be awake.

Benni123 · Post by **Benni123** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:40 am

I'm curious why the task of "Uploading the media" does need so much time. Three days should be more than enough...

Maybe one of the devs still works with an x386 computer and an isdn modem internet connection....

aidanjt · Post by **aidanjt** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:44 am

kalos wrote:I don't know if the GTK+ / GUI / LiveCD / installer, or whatever else you would like to call it, has been a complete nuisance. I'm glad that it is an option for new users, but personally I don't think it is very Gentoo-esque. In my opinion, and I have no numbers to back up this claim, the majority of people who would really like to use Gentoo and who would get the most out of the Gentoo experience, will want to install via the CLI. If that would boost efficiency in the release cycle, it might be something to consider. However, I think it's wonderful that there are those individuals that have devoted so much time to creating the installer and if they want to continue, that's great too.

It doesn't work, and it replaced the 'quick desktop' method that did work, that annoys me, how is that not a nuisance? I'm not saying that the installer should be buried forever, but including it in stable releases misleads people into believing it's fit for use, and it isn't, it should never have been included on anything non-experimental until it was in a state that it didn't eat kittens, and small children, and your p0rn stash on another partition.

V-Li · Post by **V-Li** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:23 am

Benni123 wrote:I'm curious why the task of "Uploading the media" does need so much time. Three days should be more than enough...

Maybe one of the devs still works with an x386 computer and an isdn modem internet connection....

It is simple. When some thousand downloads start at once one single machine would die. So it has to propagate to the mirrors quickly before the announcement, so people have the opportunity to download in parallel.

Benni123 · Post by **Benni123** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:17 pm

It is simple. When some thousand downloads start at

You might not understand what I was writing about. My post was with regards to the release schedule:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/re ... /index.xml
19 Jun: The updated Handbook tarballs for each architecture are due to be delivered to Release Engineering for use on the final release. Completed

27 Jun: All release media is uploaded to the release staging server (poseidon) by this date to be prepared for release.missing

27 Jun: One final check is made of all release materials, DIGESTS files are signed, and any additional tasks are completed.missing
27 Jun: Release Engineering makes one final check of all materials, then hands it over to Infrastructure for staging and release.missing
30 Jun: All news items are committed, the release materials and Handbook are made visible to the public, and Release Engineering takes a well-deserved break.missing

and I simply do not believe that it takes three days to upload the media to the release staging server.

Also I do not believe that there is anything about problematic tests, since in the schedule the final check is to be made after the upload.

Might it be possible, that someome just has not the time to "upload the media" because of family issues?

I think this delay is very strange, since Beta 2 was already in a very healthy state I think. As another dev said in this thread: the transition to 2008.final will be mainly a renaming operation

96140 · Post by **96140** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:17 pm

@Benni123:

Believe whatever you want; it really doesn't affect us in releng. You must have missed this earlier post by another developer. There are lots of checks to be made by infrastructure in addition to releng once the media is assembled.

And yes, staging takes awhile. The media and stages occupy a considerable amount of space, and it does take time for all our many mirrors to receive them and set them up on their end. There's not just "one server"; there are dozens.

You're pretty much talking out of your hind end at this point. What you believe is irrelevant, because you don't know anything about the release process. The family issues you mention have nothing to do with it, though it would be appreciated if you were not completely insensitive to the death of family members.

@everyone else:

Keep in mind that this schedule is tentative. While I'd like to see a release today, too, that may not happen. There've been a few unexpected last-second issues. We're still working on those.

marcus0263 · Post by **marcus0263** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:38 pm

kalos wrote:I don't know if the GTK+ / GUI / LiveCD / installer, or whatever else you would like to call it, has been a complete nuisance. I'm glad that it is an option for new users, but personally I don't think it is very Gentoo-esque. In my opinion, and I have no numbers to back up this claim, the majority of people who would really like to use Gentoo and who would get the most out of the Gentoo experience, will want to install via the CLI. If that would boost efficiency in the release cycle, it might be something to consider. However, I think it's wonderful that there are those individuals that have devoted so much time to creating the installer and if they want to continue, that's great too.

Yeah I believe the GUI installer is a waste of time IMO, Gentoo's not Ubuntu ya know

But if people wanna work on it, more power to them ya know.

Anyway myself I prefer the Stage One route, it's easy. I boot to the minimal disk, start sshd, ssh in from another box, and just "cut and paste" most commands.

Benni123 · Post by **Benni123** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:40 pm

There've been a few unexpected last-second issues. We're still working on those.

I remember, when I first came upon an open source project, i read the line
"We won't hide problems".

What you do is: You are announcing releases for three times and do not report why they are delayed.

This procedure reminds me of classical behaviour in closed source projects. Releases are announced, delayed ever and ever, and lastly the users find out they are using some piece of software, that is only in beta stage.

With an installer that is said to be buggy and this horrible information policy of repeated announce and delay, gentoo seems to develop like a product family of operating systems by some well known company in Redmond.

srunni · Post by **srunni** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:49 pm

Keep in mind that this schedule is tentative. While I'd like to see a release today, too, that may not happen. There've been a few unexpected last-second issues. We're still working on those.

What you and the other developers seem to fail to comprehend is that the issue is not that the release is delayed - the issue is that the release is delayed with absolutely no communication of the reasons behind the delay, or assurance that development hasn't just been abandoned. After all, that's what an out-of-date page like the 2008.0 Release Information page conveys.

marcus0263 · Post by **marcus0263** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:02 pm

srunni wrote:
Keep in mind that this schedule is tentative. While I'd like to see a release today, too, that may not happen. There've been a few unexpected last-second issues. We're still working on those.
What you and the other developers seem to fail to comprehend is that the issue is not that the release is delayed - the issue is that the release is delayed with absolutely no communication of the reasons behind the delay, or assurance that development hasn't just been abandoned. After all, that's what an out-of-date page like the 2008.0 Release Information page conveys.

I second that, communication is a wonderful thing

Benni123 · Post by **Benni123** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:35 pm

What you and the other developers seem to fail to comprehend is that the issue is not that the release is delayed - the issue is that the release is delayed with absolutely no communication of the reasons behind the delay, or assurance that development hasn't just been abandoned.

Thats exactly the point. The only expression one can get from this information policy, is that the developers went into holiday and stopped the release process.

I see nothing in Bugzilla that would prevent a release. Since Bugzilla is the forum where bugs are discussed, I assume there are none and the development has stopped. Otherwise the developers would at least find the time to write one single line on a webpage about the issues at hand.

Ever, if I get such responses:

There've been a few unexpected last-second issues. We're still working on those.

I get suspicious. What are "a few issues" which cannot be explained in one sentence? A ticket to holiday? A dog who has eaten the storage drives of the devs?

Microsoft calls worst security problems in their browsers "a few issues". This is exactly the way things are communicated in closed source: "don't go here, there is nothing for you to look for....."

I'm sorry but this behaviour of the developers seems to be the strongest argument for users to change their distro! Do you really want this?

think4urs11 · Post by **think4urs11** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:45 pm

Benni123 check your wording and argumentation in general!

Even if you might have valid reasons to complain about things your way is not the correct one.

junkstr · Post by **junkstr** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:47 pm

I'm sorry but this behaviour of the developers seems to be the strongest argument for users to change their distro! Do you really want this?

Stop complaining; If you do not like it go use Ubuntu.

srunni · Post by **srunni** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:14 pm

junkstr wrote:Stop complaining; If you do not like it go use Ubuntu.

Considering your low post count, you're probably a troll. But I'll reply to your statement anyway, since this is actually a fairly common sentiment among many members (particularly developers) of the Gentoo community:

The problem at hand has absolutely nothing to do with switching to Ubuntu, or any other distro, other than the fact that Ubuntu's developers are competent in getting their releases out in time, or at least promptly informing the community that there are delays, and precisely what those delays are. Here's an example of how to inform the community that the release has been delayed: http://www.linux.com/articles/52892

In an IRC meeting to discuss the delay, Shuttleworth and other core developers stressed that Dapper was ready to go without the extra six weeks, but because of expectations surrounding the feature leaps in this release, Shuttleworth wanted to give everyone more time to fine-tune the distro in order to provide the best possible product at the enterprise level.

It seems that developers of Ubuntu, a distribution that is incessantly derided on this forum, are at least capable of informing the community that the release has been delayed. In this case, they did so a entire month before the release was originally supposed to be out. The Gentoo developers, on the other hand, seem to maintain a pact of absolute secrecy: when the release is completed, it simply emerges from its black box with absolutely no explanation of what occured during the development process. This practice runs in direct opposition to the core philosophies of free/open source software.

Benni123 · Post by **Benni123** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:36 am

Benni123 check your wording and argumentation in general!

I know that my words were harsh. But maybe only such harsh words might be able to communicate to some devs that the notion

Believe whatever you want; it really doesn't affect us in releng.

Is the most dangerous behaviour which members of an open-source project can have.

Open source has two advantages compared with closed source.

a) everybody can report problems
b) depending on own knowledge, everyone can contribute.

But b) will only happen, if talented people have the possibility to easily see what's going on. If developers of an open source project do not openly publish what they are doing, they will never attract developers.

Of course, no one wants to have a buggy operating system. Therefore everyone will accept if there are some bugs and problems to be fixed causing a delay.

But if you publicly announce release dates for three times, delay them for months, and comment this with

We have some issues to fix

Believe whatever you want

then we are at a point, which i have seen not very often in the Linux community.

Stop complaining; If you do not like it go use Ubuntu.

I like gentoo since 2002. At this time, releases were no problems. It had enough devs. I like its ability to configure it exactly in the way I want. also, I like the speed in which packages run. Ubuntu does not have anything compared to portage. Therefore, Ubuntu is no way.

But at the time a developer tells messages like

We have some issues to fix

without any single line mentioning what the problems are, then we are simply somewhat away from the process in which a Linux system is normally developed. If Suse would behave like this, it would perhaps be more acceptable, since its users might not always know what a GCC or a Kernel is. But Gentoo is for experienced users. The Idea of an operating system for experts, where the experts are not informed whats going on simply [/quote]scares me.

Hamsterkill · Post by **Hamsterkill** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:21 am

Much as I don't like saying it, Benni has a point (though a somewhat rude way of stating it initially). The releng project isn't as transparent as it could be. I mean, even the gentoo-releng list doesn't seem to be used for much these days.

96140 · Post by **96140** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:14 am

Here's the thing -- we have given some reasons for the delay, some of them even in this very thread, but people aren't bothering to read for themselves. There are more posts on the subject on Planet Gentoo, and in the June issue of the GMN, we even link to a Releng member's post on the subject.

Just a day or so ago we found out that the 2.6.24 kernel made the PPC/PPC64 CDs useless, so that had to be fixed, right as we were getting ready to shove everything out the door. We can't alter the published tentative schedule for each delay because quite simply we can't always know how long it will take to track the problem down, fix it, redo the media, restage it, and so on. It takes group effort and time to get things fixed, so that gets in the way of updating the schedule. Gentoo is not our full time job. It's a hobby. This means that we can't allocate our free time first and foremost to Gentoo; you'd like it if we could, but that's not reality.

Heck, it'd be nice if we could get a specific person for Public Relations within Releng to keep the community abreast of the situation, insofar as we are able to inform that PR person of what's going on. (Anyone out there reading this? Want to step up and participate, bring a public face to the work we do? Do you have time for it? Several hours per week. We're looking for you.)

Let me share some thoughts on why we don't have constant updates on why releases are delayed.

What users don't understand is that if there isn't a reason given for a particular delay, it may be because we are unable to give it. This can be 1) lack of time to create press releases, or update the tentative (my, how everyone forgets that) release schedule page, 2) security updates that are kept under wraps until they're fixed, which is appropriate when the situation warrants it, or 3) personal, private matters.

It's this last one that I'd like to point out to people. There was a death of a very close family member for one of the releng developers; release was put off while this was dealt with. It was originally supposed to remain private, but then someone leaked it and some community members were all over it, some even saying that it should have been made public "for transparency", so that "we know why the release is late." Ask yourself if this is reasonable.

Let's say that the release gets delayed because I don't have the handbooks done, and none of the other GDP members have access to my precommit files and/or aren't available to do the work. What if I'm having a personal issue, a midlife crisis, or my (hypothetical) medication has run out. I don't have to give a reason why my part isn't finished yet. It's personal. And in turn, the rest of the team is under no obligation to divulge the details of my personal life.

This happens more often than people will ever realize, for all of the Gentoo projects and teams. That's just the way it is. There's not always a technical explanation for something that happens, though I do think that where possible we should strive to be more transparent on the technical level (which is why I mentioned the PPC info earlier). It's just that doing so takes time, and that is something we do. not. have. As a team, since we're shorthanded, releng's time is better spent trying to just bring the release to you, the users.

Now, I'm the exception, in that I take my valuable time and try to talk with the community. I'm willing to liaise with you, at least thus far. It hasn't burned me out yet. But the other members of the team don't even have the time to write something up, and frankly, with the exception of this post, neither do I, really. I'm going to try to keep updating the tentative release schedule, as I've been doing lately, but I can't promise that there will be a schedule change and accompanying news post every time it happens.

As stated earlier, if you want explanations and reasons for every delay, you need to be working with us, on the inside, as a member of the team. I can't even keep abreast of all releng developments as they happen; there are simply a lot of disparate responsibilities, even though we have to tie our work together extremely closely. We still don't have enough people to do all the work as fast as it would take to keep the "give us updates" crowd happy.

If you're one of those folks who wants more transparency, unlike some others here I'm not going to say "Go use Ubuntu, because that's occasionally their method of operation." Instead, I invite you to join us, to become a developer, to at least work with us in some capacity to make that transparency happen.

You want more transparency? Join the team; we need the help. We need you.

V-Li · Post by **V-Li** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:57 am

Benni123 wrote:
It is simple. When some thousand downloads start at
You might not understand what I was writing about. My post was with regards to the release schedule:

Yes, and you might not have understood what I wrote about...the very same thing.

Believe it or not, it takes some time to upload (most access are asymmetric in regards to a far greater download rate). And then infra hast to check and mirror it. To have some margin of safety you give it more time than expected. That way you can handle last minute show-stoppers. Period. So now tell me, if you still think you got me wrong?
By the way, I am not a member of release engineering, because I have no time to do it.

swimmer · Post by **swimmer** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:48 am

@nightmorph: Thank you very much for your very outspoken, clear & reasonable post!!!

I hope the people complaining all the time will read it carefully and even more important try to understand what's stated ...

Kindly
swimmer

yngwin · Post by **yngwin** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:17 am

nightmorph wrote:Heck, it'd be nice if we could get a specific person for Public Relations within Releng to keep the community abreast of the situation, insofar as we are able to inform that PR person of what's going on. (Anyone out there reading this? Want to step up and participate, bring a public face to the work we do? Do you have time for it? Several hours per week. We're looking for you.)
...
You want more transparency? Join the team; we need the help. We need you.

/me raises hand.

As I already said on IRC yesterday, I want to get involved. I think releng is an important part of Gentoo, and I place great value on communicating with users. Being the "public face" could be a role in which I could make a valuable contribution, and which is something that fits my skills. A couple of months ago I already offered my help to releng, but was told I couldn't do anything at the moment because of my lack of intimate knowledge of Catalyst. Fair enough. I just want to underline again that I am willing to help, if there is anything I can do.

I believe we really need to get more people involved, and we should be willing to train people who are not 'up to speed'. I understand that at the moment the release takes precedence, but once that is done, in my opinion we should take a serious look at the release process and streamline it. We should be able to 1) make the load lighter and 2) spread the load over more people, so that the inevitable personal life issues that will crop up won't have such a huge impact on Gentoo's release cycle. I am not interested in laying blame on anyone, I know we are all volunteers with limited resources, I just want to help find solutions to make things easier for everybody involved.

Benni123 · Post by **Benni123** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:01 am

Just a day or so ago we found out that the 2.6.25 kernel made the PPC/PPC64 CDs useless

But this seems not to appear in Bugzilla. Why?

I think it would be enough just to post this bugs in Bugzilla, and then may be inform the public about the delay with a link to the specific bugs in the database.

3) personal, private matters.

Of course, no one has to make something public about his private live.

But even in their regular email adresses, most people have activated an automated "i am away" reply when they are left for a few days.

I think there is nothing which would prevent someone to announce, that for the next few weeks he is just "unavailable, due to private matters" in his functions as gentoo developer, and for this allow others to do his jobs...

xargos · Post by **xargos** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:07 pm

So much for just lurking...

While nightmorph did indeed write a thorough response, I can't help but still think one thing:

It doesn't take long to write one or two lines to say that the tentative release date cannot be met and to post such info to a website. In this case, Gentoo's front page. The message doesn't need to be detailed, but it should let people know there is a delay.

Benni123 also has a point about a showstopper not being seen on Bugzilla. That sort of thing is important in an open source project.