Sabayon == Gentoo?

Message

yabbadabbadont · Post by **yabbadabbadont** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:05 am

pjp wrote:Doesn't instill confidence.

Neither does the bi-weekly Gentoo developer exodus.

occ · Post by **occ** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:48 am

pjp wrote: So, they waste time duplicating effort solely for the purpose of distributing an overlay? Doesn't instill confidence.

I wouldn't call it 'wasted.

A few weeks ago we bought a dozen a dual core duo, to replace the aging PC park of workstation.
When time came to install gentoo it we had a very disagreeable surprise: the latest Gentoo live-cd would not boot on it, and the previous version could not recognized the network card.... (and these PC were tiny form-factor: no room for an extra network card...)

We googled for a solution... That's how we discovered Sabayon... It turn out that the sabayon Live-CD did boot just fine, all hardware up and running:
After that we did a regular gentoo install, but Sabayon saved the day.

bunder · Post by **bunder** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:36 am

nightmorph wrote:Support requests for it on bugzilla are marked invalid or wontfix, and will go unanswered here on the forums (or else moved to Unsupported Software or OTW). This is due in part because the creator of Sabayon has admitted that he has told his users to lie about what distro they're using when they come to Gentoo IRC channels in order to get technical support.

do you blame them? its bad enough that xmms, gaim and other development groups hate me solely on the basis that i use gentoo.

edit: the fact that xmms has been removed from the tree should have no bearing on your answer.

Post by **pjp** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:41 am

occ wrote:I wouldn't call it 'wasted.

You should catch up on the rest of the thread... the whole point was that Sabayon is supposedly just an overlay for Gentoo. But thanks, as you just proved that it is not (and thus, all Sabayon support questions should be in OTW if they are going to be on the Gentoo Forums).

mrscotty99 · Post by **mrscotty99** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:56 am

PaulBredbury wrote:It has its own installer, so is more than an overlay from that point of view. Once someone's gone to that amount of effort, surely they're allowed to give it a non-clumsy name

IMHO: my slight rant/maybe not so humble opinion starts here:

does anyone think that because lxnay over at sabayon did an installer (that works almost (and i say almost for those few that it didnt work for...) flawlessly) and set up an overlay, its not gentoo??????????

that either the devs or just some of you are mad at the sabayon guys...

you all have to admit that since PORTAGE_OVERLAY in the make.conf was developed that overlays dont f-ing matter... its the base system we're supposedly talking about... its f-ing gentoo... if its a gentoo based distro, its gentoo...

its not debian based, its not slackware based, its not red hat/(fedora core) based, its all about base layout and package management. As far as i can tell, all the distros like these
are gentoo based so asking "gentoo" questions should be valid and answered as gentoo questions... if those questions (coming from a gentoo based but not strict gentoo distro has any thing to do with either their specific version of their distro or overlay) should be directed or answered by their distros forum or whatnot.

for you/we here at gentoo's forum to spurn their general questions or not tolerate their misdirected questions is not in the linux spirit nor is it the way of peace.

(just so all knows) i've been a gentoo user since gentoo 1.2, i had redhat, mandrake, debian and slackware and as a noob back then couldnt make them do what i needed/wanted to do. then a friend introduced me to gentoo. wow i was amazed!! herd of a program, want it? , just emerge it! since then i've been mostly faithful ( i had a laptop that knoppix worked right off the bat on, when nothing else did.) too. i chose sabayon (for the box i'm on now...) for my gentoo based install (because i'm waiting for gentoo 2007.0) because luckily everything worked right off the bat (minus the ability to -uav world), just "update the proggy you want as needed"... (i'm a -uavDN junkie), which frustrates me to no end, but.. i'm up, running and doing 95% of the things i want after only an hours install (and i've broken it enuff to be on my 6th install!!).

So i truly believe that we are all of the same "family" being either gentoo or a gentoo based distro... and as far as i can tell with other gentoo "based" distros, whats good for gentoo is good for them as well...(gentoo faqs and howtos arn't good for debian, slackware, redhat and soforth because they dont have the same base as we do...) if any thing if i was running a bsd or xxxxbsd based distro, i'd check out gentoo forums or if i were smart (running gentoo/gentoo based system) check out the bsd/bsd based system's forum..

please remember... we're all in this linux/ anti microsoft thing together ( ya i got a pirated XP also)... be kind... help each other... redirect those that are misguided or lost..

i've opinionated/ranted enuff for tonight with the help of a few margaritas,

scotty

bunder · Post by **bunder** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:00 am

mrscotty99 wrote:
PaulBredbury wrote:It has its own installer, so is more than an overlay from that point of view. Once someone's gone to that amount of effort, surely they're allowed to give it a non-clumsy name
IMHO: my slight rant/maybe not so humble opinion starts here:

does anyone think that because lxnay over at sabayon did an installer (that works almost (and i say almost for those few that it didnt work for...) flawlessly) and set up an overlay, its not gentoo??????????

that either the devs or just some of you are mad at the sabayon guys...

you all have to admit that since PORTAGE_OVERLAY in the make.conf was developed that overlays dont f-ing matter... its the base system we're supposedly talking about... its f-ing gentoo... if its a gentoo based distro, its gentoo...

its not debian based, its not slackware based, its not red hat/(fedora core) based, its all about base layout and package management. As far as i can tell, all the distros like these
are gentoo based so asking "gentoo" questions should be valid and answered as gentoo questions... if those questions (coming from a gentoo based but not strict gentoo distro has any thing to do with either their specific version of their distro or overlay) should be directed or answered by their distros forum or whatnot.

for you/we here at gentoo's forum to spurn their general questions or not tolerate their misdirected questions is not in the linux spirit nor is it the way of peace.

(just so all knows) i've been a gentoo user since gentoo 1.2, i had redhat, mandrake, debian and slackware and as a noob back then couldnt make them do what i needed/wanted to do. then a friend introduced me to gentoo. wow i was amazed!! herd of a program, want it? , just emerge it! since then i've been mostly faithful ( i had a laptop that knoppix worked right off the bat on, when nothing else did.) too. i chose sabayon (for the box i'm on now...) for my gentoo based install (because i'm waiting for gentoo 2007.0) because luckily everything worked right off the bat (minus the ability to -uav world), just "update the proggy you want as needed"... (i'm a -uavDN junkie), which frustrates me to no end, but.. i'm up, running and doing 95% of the things i want after only an hours install (and i've broken it enuff to be on my 6th install!!).

So i truly believe that we are all of the same "family" being either gentoo or a gentoo based distro... and as far as i can tell with other gentoo "based" distros, whats good for gentoo is good for them as well...(gentoo faqs and howtos arn't good for debian, slackware, redhat and soforth because they dont have the same base as we do...) if any thing if i was running a bsd or xxxxbsd based distro, i'd check out gentoo forums or if i were smart (running gentoo/gentoo based system) check out the bsd/bsd based system's forum..

please remember... we're all in this linux/ anti microsoft thing together ( ya i got a pirated XP also)... be kind... help each other... redirect those that are misguided or lost..

i've opinionated/ranted enuff for tonight with the help of a few margaritas,

scotty

well said.

lxnay · Post by **lxnay** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:16 am

nightmorph wrote:This is due in part because the creator of Sabayon has admitted that he has told his users to lie about what distro they're using when they come to Gentoo IRC channels in order to get technical support.

Sorry, I can't find where I could have said that?
REALLY, WHERE???? what a great ignorance here.
Personally, I've never said something like that.

mrscotty99 · Post by **mrscotty99** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:21 am

thank you,

i thought after re-reading it after i posted, that i might've babbled too much.

only took me an hour and a half to compose...lol

scotty

lxnay · Post by **lxnay** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:34 am

The idea is adding _real_ value to a plain Gentoo in this way:
- get things to work out of the box
- add applications that help people to configure things without becoming mad (Acceleration Manager for Beryl - that we're the official partners, desktop-acceleration-helpers, keyboard-configuration-helpers, safe-browsing-helpers, language-configuration-helpers, Sabayon Linux Installer >>>> Gentoo Installer, Virtualization Technology support (KVM,virt-manager etc), enhanced KDE integration (who ported KickOff outside openSUSE?), unionfs support on genkernel, and a lot, lot more)
- bug fixes over the official portage tree (I discover about 1 or 2 new bugs in Gentoo ebuilds every day that are not yet reported upstream)
- provide support for the most interesting emerging technologies
- provide a powerful way to upgrade your/any Gentoo-based distro to Sabayon Linux with just some clicks using our Installer. (Yes you can transform your system into a full fledged Sabayon Linux box) --> this permits us to easily upgrade our distro (Sabayon) to the latest version available at each release.
- provide _speed_ and ease of use

and we're constantly in touch with some great Gentoo developers.

96140 · Post by **96140** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:38 am

lxnay wrote:
nightmorph wrote:This is due in part because the creator of Sabayon has admitted that he has told his users to lie about what distro they're using when they come to Gentoo IRC channels in order to get technical support.
Sorry, I can't find where I could have said that?
REALLY, WHERE???? what a great ignorance here.
Personally, I've never said something like that.

Hah, right. You've admitted it in channels like #gentoo-amd64 and #gentoo. Try joining #gentoo-dev sometime and talking to the developers there who've dealt with users who were "encouraged" to lie about what distro they use. Anyway, the point is, Sabayon is not Gentoo, anymore than Ututo or Vidalinux are, so they shouldn't be supported here. That's the main reason why Sabayon shouldn't be, anyway...setting aside devious help-request tactics.

mrscotty99 · Post by **mrscotty99** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:45 am

nightmorph wrote:
lxnay wrote:
nightmorph wrote:This is due in part because the creator of Sabayon has admitted that he has told his users to lie about what distro they're using when they come to Gentoo IRC channels in order to get technical support.
Sorry, I can't find where I could have said that?
REALLY, WHERE???? what a great ignorance here.
Personally, I've never said something like that.
Hah, right. You've admitted it in channels like #gentoo-amd64 and #gentoo. Try joining #gentoo-dev sometime and talking to the developers there who've dealt with users who were "encouraged" to lie about what distro they use. Anyway, the point is, Sabayon is not Gentoo, anymore than Ututo or Vidalinux are, so they shouldn't be supported here. That's the main reason why Sabayon shouldn't be, anyway...setting aside devious help-request tactics.

might not be my place to but i would apologize for someone at sabayon for using/saing that. because i feel that one or a few bad apples should not spiol the bunch..

scotty

lxnay · Post by **lxnay** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:50 am

nightmorph wrote: Hah, right. You've admitted it in channels like #gentoo-amd64 and #gentoo. Try joining #gentoo-dev sometime and talking to the developers there who've dealt with users who were "encouraged" to lie about what distro they use. Anyway, the point is, Sabayon is not Gentoo, anymore than Ututo or Vidalinux are, so they shouldn't be supported here. That's the main reason why Sabayon shouldn't be, anyway...setting aside devious help-request tactics.

your answer doesn't merit a reply.

96140 · Post by **96140** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:50 am

mrscotty99 wrote:might not be my place to but i would apologize for someone at sabayon for using/saing that. because i feel that one or a few bad apples should not spiol the bunch..

scotty

Yeah, it is pretty dishonest. Also, he pissed off the Gentoo installer project folks too; technical issues over there. At least most Sabayon users haven't rushed en masse over here for support, though the occasional forums thread pops up. Some of the mods here have been keeping an extra careful eye on non-Gentoo support requests, so I suppose the forums should be in pretty good shape.

lxnay wrote:your answer doesn't merit a reply.

And yet, reply you did....my, just look at that. Sabayon doesn't merit being supported, because it isn't Gentoo, plain and simple.

mrscotty99 · Post by **mrscotty99** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:56 am

if i dare?:

do you think maybe the gentoo devs should look at what the devs at sabayon did with an installer... like i posted earlier , i couldnt get the 2006.1 installer to succeed on 3 different types of machines yet the sabayon installer worked on all three...

i love gentoo/gentoo based distros... i dont wanna learn debian, fedora or slack..

trying to keep the peace,

scotty

mrscotty99 · Post by **mrscotty99** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:03 am

anyone think that co-operation instead of dissension would be best for all those in dissagreement?

scotty

bunder · Post by **bunder** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:12 am

mrscotty99 wrote:anyone think that co-operation instead of dissension would be best for all those in dissagreement?

scotty

(opens can of worms)

yes, but i know that the dev team will never hear of it. take paludis for example.

there are too many people with too many agendas and views of how things should be.

maybe we should all switch to lfs.

96140 · Post by **96140** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:14 am

bunder wrote:
mrscotty99 wrote:anyone think that co-operation instead of dissension would be best for all those in dissagreement?

scotty
(opens can of worms)

maybe we should all switch to lfs.

But . . . LFS takes too long!

mrscotty99 · Post by **mrscotty99** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:30 am

if my dumb ass knew more about linux than i think i do, i'd use LFS to combine the best attributes of fedora, debian, slackware, suse and gentoo (being the layout and portage) into my "ultimate distro", but since i dont... and if you want to, please do so then send me an iso to beta test for ya.. cause if nothing else, i can break the shit as fast as you can make it, if not faster...lol.. hell i had a new comp with xp out of the box for four hours before i blue screened it the day it was available ... not to compare xp to any distro if linux... i've only been a true convert to linux for the last year (i.e. my box still dual boots to xp, but its been months since since i've booted to xp (and that was to play heroes 5, only cause i cant figure out how to run it in linux.)

scotty

kondor · Post by **kondor** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:59 pm

A few weeks ago we bought a dozen a dual core duo, to replace the aging PC park of workstation.
When time came to install gentoo it we had a very disagreeable surprise: the latest Gentoo live-cd would not boot on it, and the previous version could not recognized the network card.... (and these PC were tiny form-factor: no room for an extra network card...)

We googled for a solution... That's how we discovered Sabayon... It turn out that the sabayon Live-CD did boot just fine, all hardware up and running:
After that we did a regular gentoo install, but Sabayon saved the day.

Did you use the livecd for the x86-64? I'm also getting a core 2 duo computer, but it is a 64-bit one. I was told that the installation followed the same steps as an amd64, but I'll probably use Sabayon to get it started.

kondor · Post by **kondor** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:11 pm

mrscotty99 wrote: So i truly believe that we are all of the same "family" being either gentoo or a gentoo based distro... and as far as i can tell with other gentoo "based" distros, whats good for gentoo is good for them as well...

I agree with you. When I first discovered Gentoo based distros, I was happy. I was a Gentoo user and then switched to Suse because I could never optimize my Gentoo box the way Suse or Red Hat did. Now I'm back to Gentoo (because, hey, I could never let it go!)

For me Gentoo is great, but it takes a lot of time and effort to get it working. The livecds from Sabayon and Kororaa have done a great job in helping people like me who know little about hardware/config configuration. I'd like to know how things are configured and made to work, and those livecds are a great place to start.

peka · Post by **peka** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:49 pm

IMHO if someone dares to fork Gentoo (or any other distro) and call it a name, he should not use Gentoo's official support for this.
Look at Ubuntu, they've forked Debian but they've been ready to support their users from the beginning.

davemcbooze · Post by **davemcbooze** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:20 pm

Sabayon has great support on IRC and thier forums. They also have thier own Bugzilla. Ive never heard of anyone telling anyone to lie to get Gentoo support, and that makes no sense anyway, and im 100% sure this is a lie itself. Sabayon is Gentoo based but is NOT pure Gentoo. As has been allready well pointed out, whoever creates thier own overlay is no longer using pure Gentoo. Using Gentoo Forums is open to anyone last I checked, so why should a Sabayon user, or any user of Linux, not be allowed to post there and receive help? I do know that since Sabayon is Gentoo based, alot of stuff is the same so the Gentoo wiki's are quite helpful, and for using portage, the Gentoo handbook is great help. Posting Sabayon issues to Gentoo Bugzilla should never happen and this is common sense.

occ · Post by **occ** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:25 pm

kondor wrote: Did you use the livecd for the x86-64? I'm also getting a core 2 duo computer, but it is a 64-bit one.

dual core2 duo ARE 64 bits, indeed. Yes that is what we had, and yes we use the 64bits live CD.

Note that we did NOT install sabayon per say, just used the live-CD to get started.

Phenax · Post by **Phenax** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:32 pm

If I understand this correctly, I should not get support if I install Gentoo via any disk not associated with the Gentoo project (I installed Gentoo via an old Sourcemage disk I had), and if I have an overlay. Which, I have my own overlay and a few others.

I guess I'll start asking everything in OTW and Unsupported now..

Post by **pjp** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:22 am

Phenax wrote:If I understand this correctly

No, you don't understand correctly. Go back and read my posts. If you are unclear about something specific, I'll try to clarify.