Gentoo shouldn't have included a graphical installer

[Kensai]

Plus it may not work for you but it has worked for others.

OMG, when will people learn to read, this is frustrating how a person can't read.

Just an opinion, does not represent the feeling of others.

That is what I said, FOR ME IS A FAILIURE (MY OPINION) please learn to read, what you said proves it is the most stupid and idiotic thing anyone has ever said.

oh so you think software appeears magically and always works immediately?

Nope, just that I won't include something of alpha quality on a stable release of a serious OS.

[linuxtuxhellsinki]

I had also problems when I tried to install 2006.0 to one machine, it always stopped at some point when it tried to dl something (I can't remember anymore) and at the end I couldn't install it at all

[onlinepancakes]

Plus it may not work for you but it has worked for others.

OMG, when will people learn to read, this is frustrating how a person can't read.

Just an opinion, does not represent the feeling of others.

That is what I said, FOR ME IS A FAILIURE (MY OPINION) please learn to read, what you said proves it is the most stupid and idiotic thing anyone has ever said.

oh so you think software appeears magically and always works immediately?

Nope, just that I won't include something of alpha quality on a stable release of a serious OS.

You need to write better. WHEN WILL PEOPLE WRITE BETTER???

Honestly. All I got from you was:
GUI installer bad since I said so and that I had issues with it. Thus every one will have issues on it and this the GUI installer should be no more since I said so. Oh yes! I also predict it was going to be a complete failure and finding out it wasn't going to work write for me knowing its in alpha stage still its crap and should be stopped being made because I say so.

[suicidal_orange_II]

I was just going to post my own thread (rant) moaning at noob's who are all asking the same questions at the other end of a gui installed gentoo, but I see someone beat me to it (by many months)

This was the worst thing the dev's have done, removing apps I use on a daily basis (xmms) pales into insignificance compared to the amount of clueless users posting the same questions time and again in the forums that this has caused. While expanding the user base may seem a good idea at the end of the day it just makes the dev's waste more time closing invalid bugs, clutters the forums with duplicate threads and whatever we, the competent users, do will give gentoo a worse reputation in the wider world. If we say RTFM we will be concidered rude, and if we assume they know something when they don't and they break stuff they wont like us much either. All of this assumes of course that the gui installer now actually works, instead of trashing partition tables (which it must, as the noob questions are getting more frequent).

Having a complicated install (not that it really was, but noob's think it is) was a good thing for gentoo, if you couldn't be bothered to read through that you probably wont be bothered to read how to fix any of your problems either. I'm seriously considering moving to another distro just because of the installer, and I haven't even seen it!

Suicidal_Orange

[aidy]

ehem xmms was removed because nobody's developing it.
it's not the gentoo dev's fault.
you can always just download the source and install it yourself.

[suicidal_orange_II]

Sorry Aidy, you totally missed my point. XMMS is dead, fine. In no way was my post getting at the dev's for that, XMMS was crashing for me as a result of it being undeveloped upstream (from reading around its a miracle it worked so well at all having been dead so long). My only point with XMMS was that if I wanted to keep it it would have required some effort (creating an overlay, not hard or time consuming but effort none the less ). If they removed firefox tomorrow without warning I wouldn't mind much, it would be inconvenient but I'd get over it.

My only problem with is with the dev(s) who decided to add a gui installer. This was the worst thing imaginable for gentoo (short of unnecessarily forking, or just killing the distro overnight) imo


Suicidal_Orange

[aidy]

pff i don't mind answering 'noob' questions... and the gui installer is definately great for people that mess a lot with gentoo systems and like to have them set up fast.
Newbies are human too and who says it's because of the gui installer more of them pop up?
I did weird things when I first installed gentoo too...

[suicidal_orange_II]

I dont see how installing under X speeds up installation for those who know what they are doing (or indeed anyone else). X uses memory, and I assume the cd runs a full desktop (probably kde or gnome) which uses more, those with lesser systems with 256mb of RAM to play with will really get a big delay over following the handbook in links, in the traditional fashion. I did a clean install on this box a couple of days ago and was back in gnome within 12 hours, with most things I use on a daily basis and that includes some idle time when I was asleep (emerge -u system && emerge -e system && shutdown -h now, then goto bed ). I will admit to backing up /etc/conf.d and /etc/fstab before that install, and that I have plenty of RAM. How can the gui improve on perfection? I suppose I would have to try it to see, but there are better things to do than download unnecessary bloat.

As for the installer making more noobs pop up its undeniable. Following the handbook you are introduced to emerge and rc-update, as well as the idea that you have to edit config files manually. You are also made aware of what you have installed, I see noob's expecting to reboot from a gui install into X and it doesnt happen. With a gui and just clicking buttons these ideas are missed, and the questions will keep coming as they don't know what they have just done.


Suicidal_Orange

[aidy]

the installer installs a full system with DE as far as I know. It's WAY faster than 12 hours...

[warrens]

I tried to use the 2006.1 gui installer on my p-4m laptop, but it could not mount the cd for whatever reason. So in my case it was not ready for prime time, maybe it will work at some later date, but I will stay with the well proven cli install until then. my usual method of installing is to boot with the instal cd the ssh from another machine on my network using a xterm so i can copy and paste the the various steps of my Fiordland install to reduce typing errors. Let the devs contiue to work on the gui installer for those who want it, as for me I will just use the cli.

[suicidal_orange_II]

warrens: Are you aware of the copy/paste function available at the cli? Select text and then middle button of your mouse will paste it. Open the handbook in links on one console and enter commands in another, no need to use ssh Middle click paste is very useful, and allows you to have 2 things ready to paste in X

Aidy: There you go, noob's asking questions just because of the installer (if they had had to install a DE manually they would know they had done it). And then they ask how to get it to start on each boot (which is also covered by the handbook). So thats 2 questions, the answers to which they will see as specific and then ask later how to start something else at boot. GUI installer = evil, end of story (just my opinion )


Suicidal_Orange

[SirYes]

The thing is; manual installation is like natural selection.

True, to some extent. Exactly what I was saying in the forums occasionally.

However, the installer has some more uses, aimed at experienced users as well:

• can save/reuse configuration settings - great for (re)installation on other computers
• speeds things up if one knows exactly what he/she needs
• saves a substantial amount of typing - less errors and typos

That said, I voted "Yes, it shouldn't". But I first installed Gentoo a long time ago, and thus I'm biased.

[glowworm]

Grin, well, I was a B category user, my first attempt at a stage 1 install following the guide failed. But, I wanted to be a Gentoo user, compiling my own binaries had that allure.

I grabbed the very first alpha of the graphical installer back at the start of 2005 and got my first system working quite easily despite the huge bugs in the GLI at the time. Very soon though I made the transition from B to A. All it took was a few emerges, some config editing, some silly (now looking back) questions to the forum.

* How do I unmask a package?
* Why are my ebuilds oscillating up/down each time I emerge -uDv world?
* Why does ARTS cause a segfault

but in the 18+ months that followed I had enough confidence to start another machine. This time I chose stage 1 and was amazed at how easy it was.

I now have only seven CLI installed machines under my belt, including servers on other continents, but I now use the quick install guide in conjunction with the LVM install guide and wiki's in order to get my desired setup.

In return I have given back what little I can to the forums, I have answered whatever I can.

So, what am I saying? Don't write off people who transition into Gentoo by using a graphical installer. They will quickly leave if they are not up to task and if they are, then they too can become ricers. So what if there are "Gentoo is the suxxors" type posts, they are easy to spot and avoid.

One thing though, I wish people would return to using [solved] as a forum tag. Sigh.

[ahurst]

Hello all,
the argument that one is in fact given more choice would be fine, even aside from attracting a much less capable user..

However, now there is:
- no Universal x86 CD
- only the GUI-based release manual supplied even on the minimal CD
the choice has been reduced.

The Universal x86 was the very best way to install Gentoo, giving you an excellent learning experience.
It was my first real attempt at installing a linux distro, and turned into the moment I bid goodbye to our beloved Microsoft's OS:
I managed a stage 3 install, and learned how to use the wealth of knowledge available through the Gentoo community without asking a single question.

The GUI installer really does shortcut this completely, and in many ways changes peoples perceptions of what to expect from Gentoo.
It's far less do-it-yourself and more someone-tell-me-what-i'm-doing-wrong-now.

See my thread http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-515122.html

Andy

[DJ_Rubbie]

I used the graphical installer, and it broke on various parts through the installation. Does not support resuming if the wireless link happens to be down, I got a nice install fail. I wound up doing a networkless install because there was no way I could customize install without it breaking.

The CLI installer was worse than useless. I was hoping it would speed things up, but a stage3 install was way faster.

My conclusion is, Gentoo should stick to its core, and stop trying to appease everybody and their mothers, because frankly, there isn't enough developers to go around. It was much nicer when it was small.

[cokey]

I used the graphical installer, and it broke on various parts through the installation. Does not support resuming if the wireless link happens to be down, I got a nice install fail. I wound up doing a networkless install because there was no way I could customize install without it breaking.

The CLI installer was worse than useless. I was hoping it would speed things up, but a stage3 install was way faster.

My conclusion is, Gentoo should stick to its core, and stop trying to appease everybody and their mothers, because frankly, there isn't enough developers to go around. It was much nicer when it was small.

if you don't move forward you get left behind

[Enverex]

I'm gonna be blunt. Gentoo is a complicated Distro. The GUI installer babysits people to install Gentoo that really shouldn't be using it (a short while in the #gentoo channel will show you what I mean). It's like giving someone water-wings then throwing them into the middle of the Atlantic.

[ahurst]

if you don't move forward you get left behind

I don't agree with you at all: In what way will Gentoo be left behind!?

And I don't even agree that a graphical installer is a step forward.

Think about the reasons why Gentoo has flourished in the four years it's been around.

They are the things which separate it from other distributions, not ways in which it tries to emulate them!

What a huge waste of dev time, not to mention the time of people helping out on the forums who are increasingly inundated with problems arising from a lack of understanding, and an unwillingness to learn for oneself, precisely because people now have a shortcut installation method.

Andy

[cokey]

if you don't move forward you get left behind

I don't agree with you at all: In what way will Gentoo be left behind!?

And I don't even agree that a graphical installer is a step forward.

Think about the reasons why Gentoo has flourished in the four years it's been around.

They are the things which separate it from other distributions, not ways in which it tries to emulate them!

What a huge waste of dev time, not to mention the time of people helping out on the forums who are increasingly inundated with problems arising from a lack of understanding, and an unwillingness to learn for oneself, precisely because people now have a shortcut installation method.

Andy

people wanted an installer, lots of people and there were devs whos entire work was to write one. I wanted the installer, why? Because i'm lazy, thats why. After 3 years of doing by stage 1 and 3 i cant be bothered anymore, so i just get what i want and rebuild my toolchain:

Code: Select all

emerge -e glibc binutils gcc linux-headers make && emerge -e glibc binutils gcc linux-headers make

then maybe an emerge -upDv world

[Lloeki]

Reading all those posts before this one, I feel the poll question is kinda off, as it really includes two questions:
(1) Should gentoo have an automated (~unattended => no GUI per se) install tool?
(2) Should gentoo have a GUI (text or graphical) install tool?

my answers:
(1) yes, it should have an install abstraction tool, where you describe and set up all things at once (in some config file), start the tool (which reads the config file) and end up with a bootable gentoo install. this is not the text mode installer avalaible along with the GTK installer: apart from some user-made scripts, this tool does not exist.
(2) no, it should not. why? because once installed, the whole gentoo management system in entirely CLI (/etc/portage, emerge, rc-update...), so I see no point in having some fancy GTK/ncurses installer stuff. but that's just a reason among others.

PS: don't talk me about porthole, it's just an emerge frontend, not a portage frontend. kuroo is much better as a portage frontend, but still far from being able to do the whole work.

PPS: talking about those frontends, I have some comparison idea to get a picture of the differences between (1) and (2), comparing the install system to portage
(0) manual CLI install / do untar+configure+make+make install manually
(1) automated CLI install tool / emerge
(2) GUI (ncurses|gtk|qt install tool) / porthole|kuroo

[ahurst]

Hi,
I was a little hasty and excessive in calling it a huge waste of dev time.

For experienced Gentoo system hacks the installer may well be a godsend.
But touting it as the best way for a newcomer to install the system will bring a lot of long-term repercussions.

Thus the decision to not supply the Full x86 Handbook on any installation medium, combined with the decision to stop supplying a x86 Universal CD, the most popular installation medium, was very silly indeed, as it effectively makes the GUI LiveCD method the only supported method for newbies to get into Gentoo.

Andy

[cokey]

Hi,
I was a little hasty and excessive in calling it a huge waste of dev time.

For experienced Gentoo system hacks the installer may well be a godsend.
But touting it as the best way for a newcomer to install the system will bring a lot of long-term repercussions.

Thus the decision to not supply the Full x86 Handbook on any installation medium, combined with the decision to stop supplying a x86 Universal CD, the most popular installation medium, was very silly indeed, as it effectively makes the GUI LiveCD method the only supported method for newbies to get into Gentoo.

Andy

the full handbook *is* on every installation medium to be read in links2 (or whatever is used in the graphical).

Gentoo ignores new users at it's peril. Today's n00bs are tomorrow's devs

[Corona688]

the full handbook *is* on every installation medium to be read in links2 (or whatever is used in the graphical).

Rumor has it it no longer contains instructions for a manual install. I know I would have been up a creek without a paddle without those, it didn't quite like my hardware.

[bLUEbYTE84]

Wow, was checking the threads here on OTW and suddenly my 2.5 month old thread popped on the list

[ahurst]

Hi all,
the installation media all contain the 2006.1 Release Handbook, as at
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2 ... ok-x86.xml

The 'Full x86 Handbook' to which I refer is the Gentoo Linux x86 Handbook, as at
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml
which is not included on any installation media, and in my opinion, should be: see above.

Andy