Gentoo shouldn't have included a graphical installer

Message

bLUEbYTE84 · Post by **bLUEbYTE84** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:46 pm

Hi Everyone,
In my opinion, type of a computer user falls between those two extremes:
A: Views the computer beyond a device or tool. Wants to do many things with it. Curious, interested in learning about how stuff works. Learns to control.
Controls for freedom/customization. Customizes for his own experience. Cares about the system's 'health', performance. Wants to get the most of it. Patient. Can work for hours(provided that time exists) to fix the problems encountered, or just to make it working a bit better. Has FUN with it. In short: geeks.

B: Does not view a computer as different than any other device; a device that was just made some task(s), i.e a tool. Wants to perform his/her tasks in the most straightforward, quick way. Unwilling to spend time setting up, maintaining, fixing the computer. Wants it to 'just work' - as long as it works, how it works is not an interest. Does WORK with it. In short: Casual computer users

Let's call it user profile

Now, we all know every Linux distribution falls into a 'user profile' as well, some closer to A and some closer to B. And Gentoo, undoubtedly, is one of
those distributions that are closer to A. It is certainly not an OS made for the (B) type of users.
Some time ago I learned that there is a graphical installer for Gentoo - which I even wasn't aware of, probably since I never prefered to use a graphical
installer. And what did it serve for? I think it served to shift the minimum 'user profile' towards (B). So many people that are frightened of or not
interested on the ordinary manual installion process installed Gentoo - to find themselves in trouble. Like left in the middle of a desert. Not completely
clueless of course, but frustrated. How can you tell? - Just look at some forum posts. Some very fundamental questions are asked. Of course there is nothing wrong with it, but I think it is bad for those users themselves (time wasted, frustration)

The thing is; manual installation is like natural selection. Only if you are enough of an (A) type, you can proceed and be a Gentoo user.
But don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say(not in such a position anyway) Gentoo is for 133tz , you n00b, go use another distro.
I am just saying, if there was no graohical installer, the user base would be much more homogeneous, more refined, more determined users, and less 'leaving Gentoo/ Gentoo sucks' posts, also less user(getting it to work) problems.

Of course, accessibility is a good thing. I think Gentoo wouldn't have as much users if there was no graphical installer. It would have been more of a 'niche' distro. A more homogeneous user base - which I think would be a lot better. Better for the user, and better for the community.

I think that, the interval between A and B is spanned by many different distros very well, one has LOADS of choices, ranging from very 'easy' to 'hardcore'.

It all depends on the user. None of them sucks. They all have different roles in the Linux world, and have different target user profile.

I do believe that Gentoo shouldn't have included a graphical installer. I don't think that it goes well with the philosopy/vision of Gentoo.

Edit: Added poll.

Post by **NeddySeagoon** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:43 pm

bLUEbYTE84,

I was tempted to file this thread under dupicates because we had a similar thread when 2006.0 was released. However, its not a moderators role to stifle discussion, so I'll let it run and see how it develops.

Neither your poll nor your post caters for users in group B who are trying to get into group A.

Nobody is forced to use the Graphical installer - you can still do a stage 1 from the console if you really want to.

Having helped a large number of Linux noobs through a stage 1 in the days before irssi was included on the CD, I can vouch that a lot of new to Gentoo and Linux users have made the choice because they want to make the the group B to A transition. If a graphical installer helps this group, they should be free to choose use it.

Like everything else in Gentoo - its a user choice.

The graphical installer has come in for some bad press but if that were a reason not to have it, nobody would have Windows either.

In conclusion, the graphical installer should exist as long as its maintained and users should be free to choose to use it (or not).

nikaya · Post by **nikaya** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:02 pm

That's a sophisticated thing.
On one hand I agree to you.I also think that a GUI-Installer isn't usefull for the community.Many newbies will quickly click through installation without reading careful the handbook.After that they are yelling in the forums why Gentoo hasn't graphical tools for system administration.If someone has done the traditional install he has a basic knowledge of how Gentoo works.

On the other hand Gentoo stands for the freedom of choice.Therefore it is a way of evolution to develop a graphical installer to let the user choose.

bLUEbYTE84 · Post by **bLUEbYTE84** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:03 pm

Hi NeddySeagoon,
Point taken, and it's true that there are users progressing from B to A. That's a great thing. Perhaps I should mention it more thoroughly in my post.

However, considering the new user it brings to Gentoo, i still think negatives outweight positives.
I appreciate a user going through such a transition. For myself, I can say that Gentoo teached me most of it...
Gentoo brings knowledge. Gentoo attracts new users. But I think it sometimes becomes the target of some frustrated/disappointed(

) newbies.
Sometimes Gentoo becomes (unfair) victim of non-conscious bashings by such people, based on their failures/difficulties.
I think Gentoo itself, from the usage and maintenance point of view, is quite far away from the notion of a graphical installer.

bLUEbYTE84 · Post by **bLUEbYTE84** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:05 pm

Doe John wrote:That's a sophisticated thing.
On one hand I agree to you.I also think that a GUI-Installer isn't usefull for the community.Many newbies will quickly click through installation without reading careful the handbook.After that they are yelling in the forums why Gentoo hasn't graphical tools for system administration.If someone has done the traditional install he has a basic knowledge of how Gentoo works.

Exactly

Post by **NeddySeagoon** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:56 pm

bLUEbYTE84,

Every distro, even Windows, is the target of misunderstanding and frustration by new users who lack understanding.
I agree that the Graphical installer gets new users further into gentoo with less understanding too. I see that as a double edge sword.

Users can learn at a slower pace - which means we can attract users who want to learn but are restricted in the amount of time they can give it on one go. thats the plus side. The downside is that these same users have more to loose when their install breaks. They are then forced to learn.

I still would not take the choice away from users. Rather, I would provide the information before the install commences, so that new users can make an informed choice.

Headrush · Post by **Headrush** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:18 pm

I still use the stage1 method myself but I'm seeing a use for the graphical installer.

I have installed Gentoo many many times on various machines all using stage1 and never really had any major problems. (except for failing hardware once.)
I recently went to to install Gentoo on a new Via C3 box and like so many times before did the same stage1. Everything compiled fine and I boot up into a graphical desktop and then I start getting all these weird problems. (library related, not important to discussion)

So I thought I give the new GUI installer. Some of the screens are still very technical and I can see some new users not understanding what they are and what they do. But what this installer did was get a working setup including KDE on my system fast without problems.

From here I can customize as I want to. I think this is terrific for new users. No matter how much you may say to read this and that, understanding portage, USE flags, CFLAGS, etc can be hard for these users to grasp. Getting them running on a working system and then allowing then to change and learn is much more productive. Switching to Linux and Gentoo can be frustrating and some users will never need to know more the technical aspects of the system. Getting a running system and then being able to modify USE flags and do an emerge -uD world might be all the flexibility they need.

Post by **pjp** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:33 pm

If you don't like it, don't use it.

johtib · Post by **johtib** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:38 pm

I don't learn much be redoing the same multi-step and somewhat error prone and rather slow installation procedure for the 100th time. A good GUI installer would save me time that I could use on something that's actually useful.

gentoo_lan · Post by **gentoo_lan** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:18 am

I would not personally use the graphical installer but Gentoo is definitely about choice. People should be allowed to choose what works best for them.

yabbadabbadont · Post by **yabbadabbadont** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:22 am

It should have a graphical installer, just one that works correctly. (or at least fails without trashing non-selected partitions)

bLUEbYTE84 · Post by **bLUEbYTE84** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:38 pm

It's nice to hear all your opinions, thanks for the feedback.

Although this completely missed the point

pjp wrote:If you don't like it, don't use it.

dahranis · Post by **dahranis** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:09 pm

Can i just ask, is it possible to do a networkless install (that works and doesn't bugger your system up) using the current cd?

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:34 pm

I see a VERY good use for the graphical installer.

I have several Gentoo computers running for me and my family. Two are amd64s, one only runs MythTV (for my family), another is MythTV, Apache, Samba, xgl, and pretty much anything I think is neat to fool around with (this is mine). Another one I have running for a club I'm a member of to play music before movies, some old computer that's not at all like the two already described.

I tend to break things...a lot. None of my computers are similar, so I can't have images or anything without wasting lots of space. So when I have to fix or reinstall, especially when reinstall is easier/faster, I'd love to be able to use a nice and quick graphical interface. I know what I'm doing, it's just much more streamlined to do everything with the graphical interface.

I love the command line, hell, if not for Gentoo's lack of a graphical installer (way back when 1.4 was the latest and greatest release) I never would have learned how to use it. I'm a bit older now, less of a silly Gentoo fanboy (not that being a fanboy is bad), and I can definitely sit back and see why having more options is always better. As pjp said, if you don't like it, don't use it. That's the beauty of open source.

nikaya · Post by **nikaya** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:46 pm

Are there any experiences whether the new installer in Gentoo 2006.1 is working well?
Are there no more nasty bugs as in 2006.0?

Post by **pjp** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:00 pm

bLUEbYTE84 wrote:It's nice to hear all your opinions, thanks for the feedback.

Although this completely missed the point
pjp wrote:If you don't like it, don't use it.

No, I got your point, but you did miss my point. The GUI is a choice just like everything else (as is using Gentoo).

TheDevilsJester · Post by **TheDevilsJester** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:23 am

You paint things in Black and White, when computers and their users are far from this.

As much as I appreciated the insight that the gentoo install proccess gave me into the inner workings of Linux, I also see the usefullness of a GUI installer. I have installed Gentoo via the commandline many many times on many different PCs, and while it is something I suggest all users learn at somepoint (yeah like that will happen), after a while it becomes a tedious hassle and I end up forgetting key steps and wondering why something isnt working right.

omp · Post by **omp** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:48 am

I couldn't care less, to be honest. As long as the traditional command-line install is here, I'm satisfied.

eltech · Post by **eltech** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:16 am

johtib wrote:I don't learn much be redoing the same multi-step and somewhat error prone and rather slow installation procedure for the 100th time. A good GUI installer would save me time that I could use on something that's actually useful.

good point and just about where i stand ...

anello · Post by **anello** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:20 am

One way to install should be more than enough and since gentoo is all about choice, it's definitely the command line the right way to go. I've never tried the GUI installer, but I'd bet that it's limiting the user in several ways compared to the CLI install method.

I would prefer that the developing time for the GUI would be used to solve more important issues like portage/ebuilds/actually useful subprojects or whatever, I'm sure there are more than enough. Instead of tinkering with an installer, which is unnecessary for everybody that can read and follow a handbook/guide.

PS: Gentoo only needs to be installed ONCE!!!

Paapaa · Post by **Paapaa** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:28 am

Gentoo shouldn't have a graphic installer if this is the result (also read Carlo's post).

nikaya · Post by **nikaya** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:05 am

Paapaa wrote:Gentoo shouldn't have a graphic installer if this is the result (also read Carlo's post).

I agree.As long as the GUI-Installer doesn't work authenticly,the discussion pro and contra is dispensable.If he is useful I would also use the GUI-Installer for a quickinstall because I know how CLI-Install works.But as long as he is so buggy --> hands off.

bobobo · Post by **bobobo** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:55 pm

The problem with the current graphical installer, is exactly that it isn't suited for these people in the B group. Anyone without some knowledge of linux (and maybe gentoo) will get lost. Thus, the graphical installer lures the B type person, and leaves him/her with a failed install or half-working system. At least the manual install forces the user to learn what he needs to know, so while it is time consuming, it is actually easier imho.

(not to mention the glitches/bugs)

obediah · Post by **obediah** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:29 am

a few things to throw on the pile.

1) A graphical installer doesn't move users from group B to A so much as nuture a subset of B that thinks it's in A.

2) The command line install process is exposed, but easy to use and reliable. It was a large part of why I switched to gentoo in early 2003. It was all the fun of installing in the mid 90's, with none of the hassel.

3) I run linux as a unix-replacement, not as a windows replacement. I can appreciate conveniences like cups and usb hotplugging, but I'm here for an OS that lets me run the apps I need the way I want to with minimal interference. I'm also old and fear change, so things that threaten this nature of gentoo makes me nervous.

4) Courting the clicky-clicky linux crowd is dangerous.It's a big crowd and their hopes and complaints can drown out existing users. Despite Apple's claims, there is not a single OS experience that is best for everyone. If Gentoo wants to maintain it's current niche and expand to a gateway distro, it's either going to get very complex or end up filling one or both of those roles poorly. RedHat aggressively pursued a Linux experience that could be interchangeable with windows, and ended up with a system that any experience linux user would need root and 10 hours to get to a point where they could use it without throwing up in their mouth a little.

5) I wish I had a dollar for every pretty partioner with colored bars to replace fdisk that doesn't do half of what it needs to AND craps on hard drives. Fdisk only takes 10 minutes to learn once, unlike the graphical installer of the day which takes 5 minutes to learn for every version of every distro.

My apologies for the rant - I'm procrastinating.

rtyall · Post by **rtyall** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:36 am

I've read, whether correctly or not, that it's a much quicker install using the GUI, with the average user being able to get it done within an hour when choosing particular options.
Everytime I've installed gentoo using the CLI it's taken 3-7 days to get a system working to my liking (KDE, multimedia apps and office apps). If the GUI means that I have the choice to get the end result quicker, then where's the harm in that?

Gentoo shouldn't have included a graphical installer

Would it be better if there were no GUI Installer for Gentoo?

Gentoo shouldn't have included a graphical installer