bring warmth?
yes you do but the more the better reight?
Gentoo Women
Message
- blank_vlad
- n00b
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:50 am
The development of sub-communities, support groups and special interest groups are by definition not destructive acts, so the burden of proof here is on the naysayers. Let's look at some already existing sub-groups within Gentoo:
Gentoo projects and sub-projects:
So if you subscribe to the "sub-groups create divisiveness and decrease cooperation" viewpoint, the burden of proof is on you to explain how it's possible that the Gentoo community as a whole still thrives amidst all these sub-groups, and why it continues to be one of the strongest Linux communities in existence. Or perhaps you'd rather take the easy route and offer a concrete example of some community that imploded or was otherwise harmed after its female members formed a sub-group.
If you can't answer to either of these, your arguments against the proposed Gentoo Women project must be considered completely unfounded.
Gentoo projects and sub-projects:
- Apache, Embedded, Gentoo Alpha, Gentoo HPPA, Gentoo IA-64, Gentoo Linux/x86, Gentoo MIPS, Gentoo PPC, Gentoo PPC64, Gentoo Sparc, Gentoo/AMD64, Council, accessibility, desktop-util, desktop-wm, Games, gnome, kde, research, Scientific Gentoo, sound, video, X, manager-meetings, ombudsman, recruiters, roll-call, user-relations, Documentation, New developer training, Policy, Internationalisation, eselect, Forums, bsd, macos, RSBAC, SELinux, Bastille, Hardened Toolchain, Hardened-Sources, PaX/Grsecurity, Gentoo CVS, Gentoo Mail, Gentoo Mirrors, Gentoo Sysadmins, Gentoo Web, Infrastructure Security, Tenshi, java-config, javatoolkit, gentoo-sources, hppa-sources, mips-sources, pegasos-sources, sparc-sources, glep, herds, project listing, g-cpan, perl-cleaner, up2date-ng, PHP, Gentoo Portage Tools, Portage Sandbox, Documentation, Repoman, events, gwn, presentation, press coverage, Python, Gentoo Devmanual, RepoSuperMan, Catalyst, Installer, Releng/QA Hardware, Auditing, Kernel, GLSA-Portage Integration, Web-apps
- afterstep, apache, bsd, cjk, comm-fax, forensics, cron, crypto, dev-tools, dotnet, gnome, gnome-accessibility, gnome-mm, gnome-office, gdesklets, gpe, accessibility, java, kde, qt, perl, python, x11, x11-drivers, sound, base-system, hardened, ppc, ppc64, games, php, qmail, app-backup, net-mail, wxwindows, vim, sci, haskell, ml, common-lisp, emacs, mozilla, ruby, wine, ada, printing, gnustep, cluster, mobile, postgresql, secure-tunneling, net-im, sparc, mips, web-apps, commonbox, pda, video, media-tv, text-markup, antivirus, pam, kernel, sparc-kernel, ppc-kernel, alpha-kernel, hppa-kernel, ia64-kernel, mips-kernel, openoffice, x86-kernel, app-dicts, voip, net-p2p, net-zope, dev-embedded, desktop-misc, desktop-wm, xfce, middle-east, graphics, tools-portage, net-dialup, embedded, hppa, arm, desktop-dock, net-fs, prolog, scheme, fonts, alpha, ia64, lang-misc, netmon, net-irc, shell-tools, sysadmin, livecd, toolchain, gcc-porting, net-news, bind, benchmarks, amd64, tcltk, utf8, media-optical, gstreamer, samba, vmware, www-servers, nx, net-proxy, kerberos, cvs-utils, mysql, mobile-phone, net-ftp, vserver, gentopia, cpp, ldap, x86
- Chinese, Dutch, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Italian, Polish, Portuguese, Russian, Scandinavian, Spanish, Other Languages
- anfaenger, apache, ar, be, br, bsd, cluster, Cobalt-Dev, desktop, dev, dev-help, devrel, dk, dotnet, embedded, es, ev, fi, games, games.de, glbt, gnap, hardened, haskell, hppa, hu, hurd, ia64, it, ja, java, kde, kernel, laptop, media, mexico, mips, moz, mythtv, netmail, netmon, nl, no, osx, perl, php, ppc, ppc64, pt, python, ro, ru, science, se, security, server, soc, sparc, tw, uk, uy, vdr, voip, vps, vserver, web, x86, xgl, zseries, #gentoo.cs, #gentoo.de, #gentoo.et, #gentoo.pl, #gentoofr
So if you subscribe to the "sub-groups create divisiveness and decrease cooperation" viewpoint, the burden of proof is on you to explain how it's possible that the Gentoo community as a whole still thrives amidst all these sub-groups, and why it continues to be one of the strongest Linux communities in existence. Or perhaps you'd rather take the easy route and offer a concrete example of some community that imploded or was otherwise harmed after its female members formed a sub-group.
If you can't answer to either of these, your arguments against the proposed Gentoo Women project must be considered completely unfounded.
Reading through your points, all one can really think from my POV is that you've got something against women or doing anything for them. Why give people a name? That diversifies individuals into, guess what, individuals. Why give someone a driving license? Doesn't that disreminat between people who can and cann't drive? Why cann't a 13-year old drive?NightShade737 wrote:... excuse me? I have nothing against women, I just don't see why this group is needed when it would in practice do the opposite of what some claim would be gained and wouldn't be a benefit for the community as a whole...
Your rantings seem to be more along the lines of a personal issue then a real concern, of which some post have been. You, on the other hand, seem to be bent upon trying to keep anyone doing anything for another group, as could be speculated through your post.
There is a reason everyone isn't "politically correst", because in alot of cases, politics aren't worth a dime. I've got a Mexican half-cent here thats worth more then alot of it.
At which point you feel you can show some proof that your views are founded in logic instead of bigotry, then please post them. Until then, be quiet.
The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they make a vacuum cleaner.
Non sequitur. None of these 'sub-group' were founded on the inability of some user to belong to the larger group to start with.If you can't answer to either of these,
Teh creation of 'laguage group' like German, Chinese etc... is merely a convinience to avoid the 'de facto English' group to be 'poluted' by non english post. For your analogy to work, that would imply that 'gentoo mainstream' be declaerd Male-only, just like the core forum is English only by rule, and that women be confined to 'Women gentoo'. That is not what you have in mind right?
As for the rest, they are there to allow, otherwise fonctionning members, to specialize in topic of interest, none of them are there to palliate a real or percieved inadequacies.
Another sub-group Way unde-represented in FOSS are Microsoft employees.
After all there are 70,000 of them, and they appear to be very very under-represented here. To use an argument presented earlier in this thread: "I don't know why that is, but surely creating a group will solve the problem" (and apparently nobody flinched at the notion that some could claim, in the same sentence, to be ignorant of the cause of a situation, yet know how to adress these (unknown) causes.... 
)Did it really escaped everybody's mind that, maybe, looking at the democraphic structure of gentoo users/dev is just as relevant as looking at the demographic structure of the set of people that own 30 pairs of shoes or more ?
Where is it written that it is reasonable or desireable to expect any and every subset of the population to exhibit some kind of 'normal' distribution of gender, or of any other particular attribute for that matter.
Do rsync server deny request based on the gender of the person behind the keyboard at the other end?
Does any ebluid ever been rejected on the ground that the author was a woman ? No ? so where is the 'problem' ?
Ok, people, get back on topic here. This is about a womens-help group, and not about mindless babble on a topic some people ave decided they want to change it to, but also seem to be able to make it vauge enough that they can change arguments when they lose.
The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they make a vacuum cleaner.
- blank_vlad
- n00b
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:50 am
Your proclamation may come as a surprise to the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered users in #gentoo-glbt. Perhaps you'd care to drop by and inform them that their experiences with discrimination and being the object of queer jokes are invalid.occ wrote:None of these 'sub-group' were founded on the inability of some user to belong to the larger group to start with.
Yep you got me there... I was light years away to imagine that that level of non-sens had been reached already.blank_vlad wrote:Your proclamation may come as a surprise to the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered users in #gentoo-glbt. Perhaps you'd care to drop by and inform them that their experiences with discrimination and being the object of queer jokes are invalid.occ wrote:None of these 'sub-group' were founded on the inability of some user to belong to the larger group to start with.
Someone please tell me how can anyone be 'detected' as gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered on a virtual world ?
It can only be know as the result of an unverifiable claim on a topic that has absolutely no bearing with gentoo, linux or foss.
What would compell someone to advertise his/her sexual preference on this venue is beyond me.
Has anyone suggested yet that some funding be set aside to reserve some intership ot 'gay/lesbian/bi-sexual/transgendered' prospective dev? Has anyone thought of an appropriate test to make sure we hire only 'qualified' people ?
really it's everybody against you...NightShade737 wrote:I throw that right back at you. Stop insulting me until you prove that they aren't based on logic.Dralnu wrote:At which point you feel you can show some proof that your views are founded in logic instead of bigotry, then please post them. Until then, be quiet.
Why would a project like this encourage anyone who hasn't much interest? It is meant for those who have interest, but didn't think of participating because the "mens only club" mentality is a turnoff for them. Give them a place to start with, where they feel welcome and don't have to deal with the usual macho stuff, so they'll get the hang out of the community.NeddySeagoon wrote: My main concern is that by expending resources in this way, we are encoraging a group that don't have miuch interest in the topic to participate and thats not good use of resources. In this thread the group happens to be women, in another thread, it may be another 'focus' group.
I also fail to see how such a project would use up a lot of gentoo resources.
I really think, wouter explained quite well, what this is about.NightShade737 wrote:Maybe I just don't see the point because I'm male and personally don't notice the "mens only club" aura surrounding the distrobution.
wouter wrote: Instead, there is a need for a -women project because the Free Software world traditionally is a male society. It is a scientifically proven fact that men and women work and behave differently;
[...]
The point, however, is that men expose different behaviour, socially, when compared to women, to the point that it will turn women away because they either offend them, or because they do not understand the subtle rules that men know about men-only societies and think that a group of only man makes men 'behave strangely'. The offensive behaviour is not necessarily something that happens intentionally; never the less, it does happen and it does turn women away, including women who might otherwise be valuable contributors.
Especially given how Linux people are most often geeks, who often have issues with social behaviour, makes this a problem for women to understand how the society they're trying to contribute to, works.
In other words, the main reason for Debian-Women to exist is not to help Women with technical matters but to help them with social ones. Debian-Women helps women understand how the Debian project works on a social level, and helps them contribute. But it does not lower the bar in any way; any woman who wants to become a Debian Developer has to go through the same process, with the same rules, as a man who wants to do the same thing. I wouldn't want it any other way; and I'm sure the Debian-Women participants wouldn't, either.
Occasionally, Debian-Women is not, as one would expect, a women-only club. Everyone, men and women alike, is welcome on the mailinglist or on the IRC channel. The only "but" is that you have to follow the rules which are set for their channels; that is, no flaming, no sexist jokes, and other similar things.
Actually I agree with Nightshade on the topic of "why is such a group needed" (maybe not on some of his other views *DISCLAIMER* )Dralnu wrote:Reading through your points, all one can really think from my POV is that you've got something against women or doing anything for them. Why give people a name? That diversifies individuals into, guess what, individuals. Why give someone a driving license? Doesn't that disreminat between people who can and cann't drive? Why cann't a 13-year old drive?NightShade737 wrote:... excuse me? I have nothing against women, I just don't see why this group is needed when it would in practice do the opposite of what some claim would be gained and wouldn't be a benefit for the community as a whole...
Your rantings seem to be more along the lines of a personal issue then a real concern, of which some post have been. You, on the other hand, seem to be bent upon trying to keep anyone doing anything for another group, as could be speculated through your post.
There is a reason everyone isn't "politically correst", because in alot of cases, politics aren't worth a dime. I've got a Mexican half-cent here thats worth more then alot of it.
At which point you feel you can show some proof that your views are founded in logic instead of bigotry, then please post them. Until then, be quiet.
I can see the point of sub-forums for the likes of languages since it is alot easier to describe a problem in yr native-tongue if English isn't yr native language and you are not that good at it.
I can see the point of OTW for ppl with a inferiority complex and they need to be "big man on campus".
I don't see the point of Womens-only forum. What specific problem when dealing with Linux will be experienced by women only? last time I checked women have a brain, two eyes and two hands; exactly the same as men, thus they can read these pages understand and write replies. IF women spoke a different language to men then sure the justification to Women-only is valid.
Yes in the work space where the men outweigh the women it can get a bit intimidating for the women but that's because men by the fact they they are alive are perverts (only because they is the only word to describe it). Men will look at tits even those ones that say they don't (unless they are gay that is). In a high-men area a single women will get looked at, when it is a more even mix that doesn't occur as much (except by the real perverts)
Because the fact is women are nice to look at, and when there is say 20men and only one women I know what I would rather be looking at, does it make me a pervert (well maybe) or just it make me a human male.
...
So the internet, last time I checked on piccies of women were posted here so that they get barraged with lewd comments, so why exactly is a womens-only club (in the age of sexual equality) needed?
#define HelloWorld int
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
Print 0;
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
Print 0;
- NeddySeagoon
- Administrator
- Posts: 56100
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 9:37 am
- Location: 56N 3W
loki99,
This isn't a new type initiative - there are many inititaves to give girls (from high school on) an insight into engineering of various forms, including software.
For example, my workplace runs a 'bring your daughter to work day' where they spend a few hours with different subgroups of engineers and play with the products.
Its one thing to say, have you thought aount this - and show it off, another to spend resources attempting to develop interests that aren't really there.
Since we are using the sexes for the model, I see enough 'only average' male engineers who are doing it for the money, they have the skills but not the interest.
Gentoo doesn't pay well, so its down to interest for all participents.
The girls that are interested and make a career in engineering are very good, presumably becase the others drop out from peer pressure and from having to survive in a mostly male environment. I've never met a lady engineer who is only doing it for the money.
I don't have any objection to expending resources on publicity - just targeting it at specific groups, when it never a good return on investiment.
This isn't a new type initiative - there are many inititaves to give girls (from high school on) an insight into engineering of various forms, including software.
For example, my workplace runs a 'bring your daughter to work day' where they spend a few hours with different subgroups of engineers and play with the products.
Its one thing to say, have you thought aount this - and show it off, another to spend resources attempting to develop interests that aren't really there.
Since we are using the sexes for the model, I see enough 'only average' male engineers who are doing it for the money, they have the skills but not the interest.
Gentoo doesn't pay well, so its down to interest for all participents.
The girls that are interested and make a career in engineering are very good, presumably becase the others drop out from peer pressure and from having to survive in a mostly male environment. I've never met a lady engineer who is only doing it for the money.
I don't have any objection to expending resources on publicity - just targeting it at specific groups, when it never a good return on investiment.
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
I just feel that if the women that are put off because of this "mens club" mentality form their own group then this mentaility will never go away as the women that would normally now be normal members of the community and thus reducing the mentality through purely just being there, wont be, because they'll be in their own segregated section meaning the mentality will remain, but only removed from one place (The women only group) rather than them just joining the community as normal and making it into an equal grounds without the sexist mentality.
How do you know that there are no women that do have interest? After all there are some female developers helping to build this distro already. As far as I understand, this is not about starting a PR campaign or about getting women to use Gentoo that don't have interest in it.NeddySeagoon wrote: Its one thing to say, have you thought aount this - and show it off, another to spend resources attempting to develop interests that aren't really there.
As I said before, it is meant for those who have an interest, but also are having a hard time getting a foothold in this mostly male community.
Well, that would surely be the point of a Gentoo Women initiative - to stop women dropping out for these reasons. If the interest is there, I think that anyone dropping out because of other people is a real shame, so in my opinion if the project stops one person from giving up on Gentoo because of this, it would would be a success.NeddySeagoon wrote:The girls that are interested and make a career in engineering are very good, presumably becase the others drop out from peer pressure and from having to survive in a mostly male environment. I've never met a lady engineer who is only doing it for the money.
No-one's more important than the earthworm.
What makes you think that women would be segregated by this? Of course they'd still participate in the rest of the community. Such a project would just give them some extra space, protected by their rules, where they can openly socialize about the troubles they have in trying to participate in this community.NightShade737 wrote:I just feel that if the women that are put off because of this "mens club" mentality form their own group then this mentaility will never go away as the women that would normally now be normal members of the community and thus reducing the mentality through purely just being there, wont be, because they'll be in their own segregated section meaning the mentality will remain, but only removed from one place (The women only group) rather than them just joining the community as normal and making it into an equal grounds without the sexist mentality.
Just take a look at this thread! Do you have any idea how tiresome it can get to argue about the most basic gender issues all the time, over and over again? A seperate platform (but not "women only", as pointed out several times in this thread!) would give them a save homebase where such discussions are not needed and women can talk about their needs without having to bother.
- NeddySeagoon
- Administrator
- Posts: 56100
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 9:37 am
- Location: 56N 3W
loki99,
I'm all in favour of encoraging everyone to participate in Gentoo, as a user, developer or whatever. I already encorage and support new members of our community, regardless of any subgroup labels they may have. I don't see what we as a commity gain by providing discrimination.
Do you suggest, in this instance, I should seach unanswered posts for potentail female nicknames and respond to them first ?
Maedhros,
Like everone else in engineering, girls have to make it through high school and further education to get a job. There are dropouts in all groups all the way through that process. Its just real life at work.
We should support any member of the Gentoo community that is strugging with Gentoo - no exceptions.
To get girls interested, you need to get to them when they are very young. High school is too late. Give them a Mecano set to play with, not dolls.
How about setting uo #gentoo-women as an expeiment ?
I'm all in favour of encoraging everyone to participate in Gentoo, as a user, developer or whatever. I already encorage and support new members of our community, regardless of any subgroup labels they may have. I don't see what we as a commity gain by providing discrimination.
Do you suggest, in this instance, I should seach unanswered posts for potentail female nicknames and respond to them first ?
Maedhros,
Like everone else in engineering, girls have to make it through high school and further education to get a job. There are dropouts in all groups all the way through that process. Its just real life at work.
We should support any member of the Gentoo community that is strugging with Gentoo - no exceptions.
To get girls interested, you need to get to them when they are very young. High school is too late. Give them a Mecano set to play with, not dolls.
How about setting uo #gentoo-women as an expeiment ?
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
No, NeddySeagoon! That is not what I would suggest.NeddySeagoon wrote:loki99,
I'm all in favour of encoraging everyone to participate in Gentoo, as a user, developer or whatever. I already encorage and support new members of our community, regardless of any subgroup labels they may have. I don't see what we as a commity gain by providing discrimination.
Do you suggest, in this instance, I should seach unanswered posts for potentail female nicknames and respond to them first ?
This is not about discriminating anyone. But I seriously do wonder if you read my posts and especially the quote of wouter that I posted above!
You obviously fail to see the hazards that women have to overcome if they want to be a part of this community. Why do you reject a project that definately would help women that are interested in Gentoo and that are interested in getting involved? Debian Women has proven that this concept works quite well and it woun't take away much resources because the project attracts new users that have an interest in continuing it. Sounds quite self sustainable to me.
But what such a project definately needs, is the general support of the rest of the community.
And the "Its just real life at work" argument is a real weak one. Why should we perpetuate wrong doings if we have a simple and practical way to work against such real discrimination?
Last edited by loki99 on Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.