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Sick of Gentoo

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blk_jack
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Post by blk_jack » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:11 pm

dalek wrote:Not quite. I don't use windoze but I work on all my friends that do, and I used to work on them a while back. Windoze is not that stable even if you are a windoze guru. Go to netcraft and check out the uptimes for bellsouth.net on their servers. Most can't make it 60, some can't even make it 30 days. It has been like that for years, ever since I started watching it. Linux can run until you upgrade the kernel or like me, have a storm come through and put out your lights for a couple days.
Here's where I disagree with you. My business partner runs Windows XP and while he admires my Linux setup and envies a lot of the things I can do with it, he's also content with running Windows. He's very computer savvy and maintains his box well. He almost never has problems and just lets MS update his software for him. He has a virus scanner and everything seems to work for him.

He likes the concept of OS software and the fact that the applications aren't owned by big business, but other than that there's no huge motivation to switch. He would have to learn about Linux and that would potentially waste a lot of time.

For some people Windows just works, and I suppose it's the same for MacOS X.
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Post by blk_jack » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:19 pm

I should probably apologize for this whole thread. When I made the topic I was very frustrated with Linux. I wasn't frustrated because of a certain piece of software not working, I was just bored and retrospective--thinking about all my years with Linux.

I'm the type of guy who likes to try out bleeding edge software. A few days ago I was complaining about Linux on an IRC channel and somebody informed me that there is an alternative to MacOS X eyecandy for Linux--XGL!

I hadn't even HEARD of XGL but when I saw the demo I was blown away. There were moments where I literally said out loud "no way!". So I quickly got started on installing xorg 7 and XGL, trying to get it to work with my XFCE4 setup.

It only took about 6 hours total, which is pretty decent considering I've ran into a bunch of people who are still having trouble a week after they started installing it. Everything is pretty much as I had it before, but it's very exciting for me. I fell back in love with open source software and development and it was a lot of fun setting all this up.

Projects like XGL really make me happy and truth be told I find more enjoyment trying to install something like XGL than a "fun" alternative like playing video games. It reminds me of why I started using Linux in the first place. I think my "sick of Linux" was more "sick of nothing that I find exciting with Linux". Back in the 90s I used to skip school and stay home to install new versions of software and try to find new things to do with my box. I hadn't really found that kind of "excitement" in years.

Man, for all you people who think you're sick of Linux but are really just bored.. try out XGL!
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Post by cokey » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:41 pm

blk_jack wrote:He likes the concept of OS software
Everyone likes Operating System software otherwise there would be no way to operate your hardware
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Post by blk_jack » Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:19 pm

cokehabit wrote:
blk_jack wrote:He likes the concept of OS software
Everyone likes Operating System software otherwise there would be no way to operate your hardware
Boo! Get off the stage! :)
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Post by Archangel1 » Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:31 pm

cokehabit wrote:
blk_jack wrote:He likes the concept of OS software
Everyone likes Operating System software otherwise there would be no way to operate your hardware
Back in my day we didn't have any of these fancy operating systems, we wrote everything in machine code and ran it directly. Kernels are for the weak :lol:
What are you, stupid?
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Post by cokey » Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:48 pm

Archangel1 wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
blk_jack wrote:He likes the concept of OS software
Everyone likes Operating System software otherwise there would be no way to operate your hardware
Back in my day we didn't have any of these fancy operating systems, we wrote everything in machine code and ran it directly. Kernels are for the weak :lol:
pffft, in my day code was a luxury, I used to use lumps of coal
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Post by 1clue » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:03 pm

Ever since they outlawed spark gap transmitters, things haven't been the same.
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Post by CoffeeBuzz » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:37 pm

cokehabit wrote:
Archangel1 wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
blk_jack wrote:He likes the concept of OS software
Everyone likes Operating System software otherwise there would be no way to operate your hardware
Back in my day we didn't have any of these fancy operating systems, we wrote everything in machine code and ran it directly. Kernels are for the weak :lol:
pffft, in my day code was a luxury, I used to use lumps of coal
We used to DREAM of using lumps of coal. We used rotted bags of cabbage dipped in sulfuric acid and when we were done our bosses would beat us with a stick for pay.

(hint of monty python in there... anyone?!)
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Post by cokey » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:06 am

CoffeeBuzz wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
Archangel1 wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
blk_jack wrote:He likes the concept of OS software
Everyone likes Operating System software otherwise there would be no way to operate your hardware
Back in my day we didn't have any of these fancy operating systems, we wrote everything in machine code and ran it directly. Kernels are for the weak :lol:
pffft, in my day code was a luxury, I used to use lumps of coal
We used to DREAM of using lumps of coal. We used rotted bags of cabbage dipped in sulfuric acid and when we were done our bosses would beat us with a stick for pay.

(hint of monty python in there... anyone?!)
rotten bags of cabbage? If only. In my day we had to do everythiing with our flatulence
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Post by humbletech99 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:48 am

Wow, this thread is moving too fast...

RuiP: ok, fair points. But the words "Windows 98" should never enter this conversation. I take every opportunity to say that 9x was the sh*test OSs I've ever used. I hate them with a vengence, I practically forced my old employer to go from nearly all 98 to all XP. If you are making a comparison then it really has to be XP Sp2 against modern Linux, otherwise the arguments become skewed and invalid. I agree with what you said about network card detection, when it detects it automatically and you just have an eth0 to work with it's great (same for XP), but when it doesn't then it's more of a hassle that the XP equiv. However, I think that linux being a very network orientated OS has excellent nic detection and support, it's rare to ever have problems with it, wireless is another matter though, ironically usually solved through ndiswrapper and Windows XP drivers!

1clue: I have never in a decade of using M$ OSs called M$ for support, nor do I know anybody else who has... Nearly all probs can be solved with their extensive knowledge base and a little basic technical knowledge. It's a shame there isn't a version called Windows Elite that only smart people can use so it doesn't get such dufus rep cos technology wise it's actually good enough (for the first time). It'll be a struggle to force people to upgrade to "Vista" (who chose such a crap name - XP was much better). They'll probably just sign deals to the pc vendors to ship only Vista, which I don't really have a problem with replacing an OS for a more updated one, it's called progress, I hate it when people run 10years old inferior software, like when I come across an old distro or win9x, I'm like yuk! I think it's important otherwise improvements can't be made as fast or people don't get the benefit of those improvements...
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Post by cokey » Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:50 pm

humbletech99 wrote:RuiP: ok, fair points. But the words "Windows 98" should never enter this conversation. I take every opportunity to say that 9x was the sh*test OSs I've ever used.
you have no idea how their releases helped computing in general, not 98 or ME but windows for workgroups and 95 were major steps
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Post by humbletech99 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:13 pm

I know, I remember the hype, but by today's standards they are awful, talking to M$ devs at infosec 2005 they pretty much said the same, that's why the whole line was discontinued and nt chassis used for future versions...

Back in the day they were generally better than the rest, but they shouldn't be mentioned today in a comparison context to modern OSs...

I still remember when Windows 95 used to crash on me every single day and I used to reinstall it every 3-6 months to keep it cleaner. Games were really what did this most often admittedly...
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Post by RuiP » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:38 pm

humbletech99 wrote:...
RuiP: ok, fair points. But the words "Windows 98" should never enter this conversation. I take every opportunity to say that 9x was the sh*test OSs I've ever used. I hate them with a vengence, I practically forced my old employer to go from nearly all 98 to all XP. If you are making a comparison then it really has to be XP Sp2 against modern Linux, otherwise the arguments become skewed and invalid...
humbletech99, i understand your point. But I only mention win98, cause i have only one computer with 3Gh of cpu and 2 old machines with pentium classic, 100 Mh and 200 Mh. respectively. When i tried to install w2k on any of them they simply frozen, so, before linux the only thing i could ran on my wifes computer was W98. Again, i believe that W2k and XP are much better then 98, 85, ME and kind, but not all people have new machines or money to buy new ones at Gates fashions.
Nowdays those computers run fully linux and the gdm is started on my main fast computer using xdmcp. so all computers behave like P4 3G, with slight slowdown of network. A much less expensible option ;)
My point was, again, that you must have adequate hardware to run MS products. Old things give problems with nem software and the other way around.

Something of what you say, i find it very right. You are an experience ciomputers user. So you don't have problems with your XP.
Thats have noting to do with easyness or intuitive nature of that OS. It's your knowlege that make it work nicely.
The people i found with Windows problems are always users with no computer experience or not even a minimum techonlogical background. For me, a fragile op. system is (a design definition that holds for any tool or equipment) one that will not stand up with the use of an unexperient user. Not the more or less dificulty of instal , configure or manage hardware. Thats where i have seen Windows fails all the time.
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Post by humbletech99 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:44 pm

yeah, windows is more fragile for people who don't have a clue because they run as administrator and can graphically destroy the system. But what would happen if everone ran as root all the time and had autoplay for everything? (Linux doesn't do things like autoplay and local path generally so it's this which makes it a bit safer, you have be aware to take the extra step or two to get something working in these occurrances..)
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my two cents on all of the above

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Post by galtthedestroyer » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:19 pm

some of the later posts got it right. get a mac. I've used gentoo for a while and in fact I"m still using it for my mythtv box. but for day to day use I have a mac. I didn't want to spend a ton of money so I got a used G3 for $50 and put OS 10.4 on it. G4's are available for around $50 now. now where YOU get a copy of 10.4 is your business.

some people have a problem with non-FOSS. I, like the original post have a problem with software that doesn't just work. so I run osx with FOSS apps and everything is great and easy. in fact fink for osx is great for users used to gentoo or debian. but it's not necessary because all the most popular software has native osx binaries.

I could care less about eye candy, in fact in many ways osx is very plain.

in summary, OSX has excellent hardware support, almost zero headaches, is very quick / responsive, it's a unix-like environment that we're used to, and it "just works."

get a mac. try it you'll like it!
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Post by humbletech99 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:33 pm

I'll start running OSX when i comes to plain x86.

In fact, linux market share will definitely shrink when that happens. If it ever happens. Stupid Apple, why can't get something for nothing off them like everybody does with linux...
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Re: my two cents on all of the above

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Post by RuiP » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:37 pm

galtthedestroyer wrote:some of the later posts got it right. get a mac. I've used gentoo for a while and in fact I"m still using it for my mythtv box. but for day to day use I have a mac. I didn't want to spend a ton of money so I got a used G3 for $50 and put OS 10.4 on it. G4's are available for around $50 now. now where YOU get a copy of 10.4 is your business.
Am i understand you right?

If one has a problem then he/she should buy an old second hand computer, "get" with a "business" of her/his one a OS 10.4 and then problem is solved?!?!
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Post by humbletech99 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:46 pm

yes, avoiding problems is the best way to "solve" them ;-)

no, seriously, I don't think it should be called avoiding problems otherwise we're all guilty of this as we all use what we think is good and avoiding what we think is rubbish...

There are countless rubbishy window managers out there, I wouldn't wanna go through them all just to help the devs, I use fluxbox cos it does what I want.

If you like what Mac does for you, that's fine, I think it's definitely a nice product, I'm just not gonna buy it...
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Unix vs. Windows

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Post by andyandrews35 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:29 pm

Unix was written by geeks for geeks.
Windows was written by Bill Geek for dollars.
Windows does not compete well at the lower levels (networking, piping, utilities).
Unix does not compete well at the consumer level (digital cameras, point and click, plug and play).
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Post by humbletech99 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:32 pm

andyandrews35 wrote:Unix was written by geeks for geeks.
Windows was written by Bill Geek for dollars.
Windows does not compete well at the lower levels (networking, piping, utilities).
Unix does not compete well at the consumer level (digital cameras, point and click, plug and play).
That is a very accurate and succinct way of putting it. well done!

I just hope other people learn something by reading it...
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Post by Headrush » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:25 pm

humbletech99 wrote:
andyandrews35 wrote:Unix was written by geeks for geeks.
Windows was written by Bill Geek for dollars.
Windows does not compete well at the lower levels (networking, piping, utilities).
Unix does not compete well at the consumer level (digital cameras, point and click, plug and play).
That is a very accurate and succinct way of putting it. well done!

I just hope other people learn something by reading it...
As long as your remember this is a historical view or current status, not an edict to what Unix is or to be.

Some people seems to think that Linux/Unix should always stay an OS for geeks and somehow implementing decent end user support is somehow against the OSS principles and a sell out.
Last edited by Headrush on Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by humbletech99 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:33 pm

no, it's just a lot of geeks don't want to run what the other plebs run cos then they're in the same bracket, it's partially about being different. If linux becomes like Windows and is used by every joe knownuthing then I'll be using BSD unix as will a lot of other people I think...
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Post by 1clue » Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:21 pm

humbletech99 wrote:Wow, this thread is moving too fast...

RuiP: ok, fair points. But the words "Windows 98" should never enter this conversation. I take every opportunity to say that 9x was the sh*test OSs I've ever used. I hate them with a vengence, I practically forced my old employer to go from nearly all 98 to all XP. If you are making a comparison then it really has to be XP Sp2 against modern Linux, otherwise the arguments become skewed and invalid. I agree with what you said about network card detection, when it detects it automatically and you just have an eth0 to work with it's great (same for XP), but when it doesn't then it's more of a hassle that the XP equiv. However, I think that linux being a very network orientated OS has excellent nic detection and support, it's rare to ever have problems with it, wireless is another matter though, ironically usually solved through ndiswrapper and Windows XP drivers!

1clue: I have never in a decade of using M$ OSs called M$ for support, nor do I know anybody else who has... Nearly all probs can be solved with their extensive knowledge base and a little basic technical knowledge. It's a shame there isn't a version called Windows Elite that only smart people can use so it doesn't get such dufus rep cos technology wise it's actually good enough (for the first time). It'll be a struggle to force people to upgrade to "Vista" (who chose such a crap name - XP was much better). They'll probably just sign deals to the pc vendors to ship only Vista, which I don't really have a problem with replacing an OS for a more updated one, it's called progress, I hate it when people run 10years old inferior software, like when I come across an old distro or win9x, I'm like yuk! I think it's important otherwise improvements can't be made as fast or people don't get the benefit of those improvements...
There are two basic discussions happening at this point in the thread. First, there's the discussion of how these operating systems ARE. Second, there's the discussion about the historical significance of these operating systems. When Windows 95 came out, there was no truly stable windowing environment. Unix was tty-only for the most part, and any stable multitasking environment was out of range for the normal consumer. As it turned out, Win95 was a poor copy of Mac OS. However, it did what Apple could not: It converted most of the market share to a windowing OS.

My current objection to Windows is mostly related to two things: First, the closed architecture/closed document formats, and second, the anticompetitive operating mode of Microsoft.

Regarding M$ technical support and their knowledge base, either you're lucky or I'm not. I've never had to contact them, but a whole lot of people I know have done so. Most of those I know who use those products and who are not technical just don't know about the M$ knowledge base.

Regarding network drivers, a lot of (maybe most of?) the network card drivers Linux has have been written by the US government. NASA and Los Alamos National Labs, for example, write drivers for pretty much any high performance network card they're interested in using, so they can make their clusters. You generally don't use wireless networking for high speed computing clusters, so that somewhat explains the lack of support.
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Post by 1clue » Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:53 pm

humbletech99 wrote:no, it's just a lot of geeks don't want to run what the other plebs run cos then they're in the same bracket, it's partially about being different. If linux becomes like Windows and is used by every joe knownuthing then I'll be using BSD unix as will a lot of other people I think...
So they're trying to conform to the non-conformist identity?

The only way I can see "not wanting to make it easier" to be valid is if by making it easier we sacrifice some level of control. I don't use linux as any sort of style statement, I use it for business. I want the control, in fact I reject binary distributions because I want to know what features were compiled in, and want some of those available to be turned off. I'm willing to put up with a more cumbersome maintenance schedule for that. If somebody makes a simpler configuration tool though, I'm more than happy to use it as long as it does not sacrifice functionality I need for simplicity.

<edit>

For what it's worth, there is some doubt about how much performance improvement compiling for the specific architecture gives. The argument that Linux is the fastest OS you can put on a machine is false, though I still hear people use it even without any data to support it. That argument was made rightly because at the time people built servers without a window manager. They still retained full capability on whatever systems they needed, and they did not have to run a whole lot of GUI code. These plebs who don't want to run with the other plebs don't seem to be building their linux boxes without X though. In fact, they build with two monitors and every flashy feature of every GUI tool, just so it looks cool. If these guys compared the resulting speed to that of the same hardware running XP, they'd be horribly disappointed.

This is, in effect, "pimp my ride" for computers. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but having your distro automatically put that crap onto a system intended to be used in a business CAN BE obstructive. After all, if somebody wants a pimped out penguin, they don't want what came out of the box anyway. It's all about customization so why pimp the penguin that was in the box?

OK, somebody with artistic skills needs to make a penguin with a fuzzy hat and a fur coat and some shiny glasses.

Seriously though, the distributions that are attractive to a business come customized so they have a workable, predictable windowing environment that is easy for a non-expert to configure. This makes the entry level Linux admins happy, and in the long run makes the business owners happy. In spite of being free, Linux shows no evidence that it is any cheaper to run than any other operating system. Unfortunately that expense which Linux shows is in long term administration because of crappy (by today's standards) configuration interfaces. These systems need a more rare IT support staff than what is currently available. The current staff has "mcse" stamped all over the resume.
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Post by humbletech99 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:19 pm

hey, I have mcse on my resume !!!! (as do millions of others...)

I know the point you're try to make though, a lot of them are monkeys in human skin who are willing to pay and jump through hoops to get paper quals and jobs in IT. (the hee hee is that practically nobody else I trained with in all different classes ever made it). It's the same with grads. You need IQ, talent and hard work more than anything else, the rest will sort itself.

Personally, I wouldn't hire an mcse (or a grad) either, unless he was also a true unix expert/programmer type which are the real IT dudes who are rare, because most people just aren't born with the ability and you can't just learn it or fake it,,,

Speaking of the Window Manager types, I hear what you're saying, but I admin ~30 linux servers and not 1 of them has a gui even insalled, let alone loaded...

As for the customisation though, of course when u run a workstation you have a graphical display of some kind, it's not the 1970s any more, mine is a themed up customised Fluxbox!

Pimped up nicely!
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