Gentoo vs. Debian for AMD64

[dezert_fox]

I'm currently posting this from a 3-month old install of Debian Sarge for AMD64, and am dissastisfied with package availability (for example, the firefox package included is version 1.0.7). Would I be looking at a different situation if I bothered to switch to Gentoo? Obviously you all are probably going to give me a million reasons to switch, but what are the best ones, given the AMD64 architecture I'm trying to run on?

[sirdilznik]

I am not that familiar with the current state of the package repository in Debian (it's been a while), but I can tell you that there is no shortage of amd64 ebuilds in Gentoo's Portage. You can run damn near everything with amd64 that you could with i686 on Gentoo, and the few packages that don't have native 64-bit builds yet, generally have 32-bit binary packages you can install and run in your 64-bit environment. Ebuilds for new (bleeding-edge) versions of packages generally appear in Portage within a day or two of the release, though you will need to unmask them to use them as they enter Portage marked as ~amd64 ("unstable" = not thoroughly tested). Bottom line is: Amd64 is extremely well supported in Gentoo (better than any distro I've tried in my opinion).

[otake-tux]

I would also like to see a comparison of gentoo 64 bit vs ubuntu 64 bit.

I'm using ubuntu64 right now, but I'm also having issues with things like win32 codecs and acpi....

[jonnevers]

I would also like to see a comparison of gentoo 64 bit vs ubuntu 64 bit.

I'm using ubuntu64 right now, but I'm also having issues with things like win32 codecs and acpi....

the win32codecs are an issue on any 64bit OS, Gentoo is no exception.

I guess I can make a note about gentoo64. Everything I run has worked fine so far... the only hitch in the giddy up is that you need to use firefox-bin (the 32-bit precompiled binary) if you want to use the flash plugin because like win32codecs the flash plugin is 32-bit only. way to go MS and adobe, way to go

so 64bit gentoo == 32-bit binary firefox + flash and no support for Windows Media formats.

vesafb-tng is broken on AMD64 (not gentoo specific) so vesafb has to be used. This isn't a problem but something to keep in mind.

aside from those three issues, I haven't found any software that causes any problems.

OH, and Sun's SDK 1.4.2 is 32-bit only. which works just fine just saying. the 1.5 SDK is 64-bit native supposedly but dosen't compile a lot of existing java apps. heh. once again not gentoo specific but 64bit OS specific. way to go Sun !

as for gentoo or debian.... I have zero experience with Debian (and/or Ubuntu) and never will. Gentoo is where its at.

- Jon

[Syntaxis]

I'm currently posting this from a 3-month old install of Debian Sarge for AMD64, and am dissastisfied with package availability (for example, the firefox package included is version 1.0.7).

If there are only a few key packages you want to upgrade, you might find that backports.org (run by Debian developers) satisfies your needs; they have updated firefox packages for Sarge, certainly. Otherwise, you might want to consider upgrading to Debian Unstable/Sid.

[longship]

AMD 64 is fairly cutting edge no matter which distribution you use, so you're going to have issues.

Gentoo's advantage is that there is a very active developer and support community. This is also true of Debian, but Debian tends to be a bit slow on the uptake. Furthermore, if you want to go cutting edge with Debian, it's almost an all or nothing matter. With Gentoo, you can easily mix cutting edge as needed with a base of stable emerges. That's a nice feature.

From my experience...

Things that work very well:
* Core system
* nForce4 chipset support
* Xorg-x11
* Firefox (bin) + flash
* Open Office (bin)
* nVidia drivers
* ALSA
* MythTV (!!!)

Things which do not work well:
* mplayer (especially 32-bit bin w/ 32bit codecs)
* transcode and other video tools

[sirdilznik]

Things which do not work well:
* mplayer (especially 32-bit bin w/ 32bit codecs)
* transcode and other video tools

On my amd64 setup I have zero issues with running mplayer-bin (for win32codecs) or mplayer (for matroska files) for that matter.
As far as the video tools go. I don't do a lot of editing, but I do a lot of encoding/dvd authoring and have found encoding (mostly with avidemux) to be fast and reliable.

[longship]

Things which do not work well:
* mplayer (especially 32-bit bin w/ 32bit codecs)
* transcode and other video tools

On my amd64 setup I have zero issues with running mplayer-bin (for win32codecs) or mplayer (for matroska files) for that matter.
As far as the video tools go. I don't do a lot of editing, but I do a lot of encoding/dvd authoring and have found encoding (mostly with avidemux) to be fast and reliable.

I have hard lock ups with mplayer-bin (power down necessary, no kernel messages). This is driving me crazy. On the other hand, MythTV works perfectly. I'm running kernel 2.6.15-gentoo-r7 on ASUS A8N-SLi Preimum with GeForce 6600GT.

mozilla-firefox-bin-1.0.7
nvidia-kernel-1.0-6629-r5
nvidia-glx-1.0-6629-r6

Would you care to share info on the following? emerge -pv output would be nice so that people can see which USE flags you have enabled.

mplayer
mplayer-bin
mplayerplug-in-bin
transcode
avidemux
win32codecs

Many thanks.

Here are mine:

These are the packages that I would merge, in order:

Calculating dependencies ...done!
[ebuild R ] media-video/mplayer-1.0.20060302 (-3dfx) (-3dnow) (-3dnowext) +X +aac +aalib +alsa (-altivec) -arts -bidi -bindist -bl +cdparanoia -cpudetection -custom-cflags -debug -dga -directfb -doc -dts -dv -dvb +dvd +dvdread -edl +encode -esd -fbcon -ggi +gif +gtk -i8x0 +ipv6 -jack -joystick +jpeg +libcaca -lirc -live -livecd +lzo +mad +matroska -matrox (-mmx) (-mmxext) -musepack -nas +nls +nvidia -openal +opengl +oss +png -real -rtc -samba +sdl (-sse) (-sse2) (-svga) -tga +theora +truetype +v4l +v4l2 +vorbis (-win32codecs) -x264 -xanim -xinerama +xmms +xv +xvid +xvmc 0 kB
[ebuild R ] media-video/mplayer-bin-1.0.20060217 -lirc 0 kB
[ebuild R ] net-www/mplayerplug-in-bin-3.11 -gecko-sdk 0 kB [1]
[ebuild R ] media-video/transcode-1.0.2-r2 (-3dnow) +X +a52 (-altivec) -dv +dvdread -extrafilters +fame +ffmpeg +gtk +imagemagick +jpeg +lzo +mjpeg (-mmx) +mp3 +mpeg -network +ogg +quicktime +sdl (-sse) (-sse2) +theora +truetype +v4l2 +vorbis +xml2 +xvid 0 kB
[ebuild R ] media-libs/win32codecs-20050412 +quicktime -real 0 kB

[otake-tux]

how do gentoo users go about with the win32 codecs issue?

the people at ubuntu do chroot environment.

[butane317]

I do it with 32-bit mplayer, done by emerging mplayer-bin.

[pteppic]

how do gentoo users go about with the win32 codecs issue?

the people at ubuntu do chroot environment.

We have 32 bit binary packages for mplayer, these pull in the neccessary compatability libraries on installation via portage.
I would like a 32bit xine-lib binary, but maybe that is going too far....

Would you care to share info on the following? emerge -pv output would be nice so that people can see which USE flags you have enabled.

mplayer
mplayer-bin
mplayerplug-in-bin
transcode
avidemux
win32codecs

media-video/mplayer-1.0.20060302 USE="X aac alsa cdparanoia dv dvd dvdread encode esd gif gtk ipv6 joystick jpeg mad nls nvidia opengl png real samba sdl truetype vorbis xinerama xmms xv xvid -aalib -arts -bidi -bindist -bl -cpudetection -custom-cflags -debug -dga -directfb -doc -dts -dvb -edl -fbcon -ggi -i8x0 -jack -libcaca -lirc -live -livecd -lzo -matroska -matrox -musepack -nas -openal -oss -rtc -tga -theora -v4l -v4l2 -x264 -xanim -xvmc"

media-video/mplayer-bin-1.0.20060217 [1.0_pre7-r3] USE="-lirc"

media-video/transcode-1.0.2-r2 USE="X a52 dv dvdread fame ffmpeg gtk jpeg mp3 mpeg ogg quicktime sdl truetype vorbis xml2 xvid -extrafilters -imagemagick -lzo -mjpeg -network -theora -v4l2" [ not used anymore. I now use ffmpeg directly for most things, it did work last time I checked though (via remote dvd::rip I think, probably a previous version.) ]

media-video/avidemux-2.0.42-r1 USE="a52 aac alsa encode mad nls sdl truetype vorbis xv xvid -arts -oss"

media-libs/win32codecs-20050412 USE="quicktime real"

mplayerplug-in-bin: I wasn't aware this package existed, I've been renaming mplayer to mplayer64, and softlinking mplayer-bin for a native compiled mplayerplug-in as long as I can remember.

[sirdilznik]

Would you care to share info on the following? emerge -pv output would be nice so that people can see which USE flags you have enabled.

mplayer
mplayer-bin
mplayerplug-in-bin
transcode
avidemux
win32codecs

Code: Select all

[ebuild   R   ] media-video/mplayer-1.0.20060217  (-3dfx) (-3dnow) (-3dnowext) +X +aac -aalib +alsa (-altivec) -arts -bidi -bindist -bl -cdparanoia -cpudetection -custom-cflags -debug -dga -directfb -doc -dts -dv -dvb +dvd -dvdread -edl +encode -esd -fbcon -ggi +gif +gtk -i8x0 -ipv6 -jack -joystick +jpeg -libcaca -lirc -live -livecd -lzo +mad +matroska -matrox (-mmx) (-mmxext) -musepack -nas +nls +nvidia +opengl -oss +png -real -rtc -samba +sdl (-sse) (-sse2) (-svga) -tga -theora +truetype -v4l -v4l2 +vorbis (-win32codecs) -xanim -xinerama +xmms +xv -xvid -xvmc 0 kB 
[ebuild   R   ] media-video/mplayer-bin-1.0_pre7-r3  -lirc 0 kB 
[ebuild   R   ] media-video/transcode-1.0.2-r2  (-3dnow) +X -a52 (-altivec) -dv -dvdread -extrafilters -fame +ffmpeg +gtk +imagemagick +jpeg -lzo -mjpeg (-mmx) +mp3 +mpeg -network +ogg +quicktime +sdl (-sse) (-sse2) -theora +truetype -v4l2 +vorbis +xml2 -xvid 0 kB 
[ebuild   R   ] media-libs/win32codecs-20050412  +quicktime -real 0 kB 
[ebuild   R   ] media-video/avidemux-2.1_pre1  -a52 +aac +alsa (-altivec) -arts +encode +mad +nls -oss +sdl +truetype +vorbis +xv -xvid 0 kB 

Note: I don't use mplayerplugin-bin, I use Media Player Connectivity extension for Firefox. Also I would suggest ditching those prehistoric nvidia 6629 drivers (they gave me nothing but trouble) and upgrade to the latest (8187). I also have a nvidia 6600 GT and those drivers work flawlessly on my machine.

EDIT: Many of the packages are ~amd64 because I'm running gcc-4.1.0 and thus had to upgrade to the latest releases for gcc-4.1.0 compliance for some of them. When I was running stable with gcc 3.4.4 all those same programs worked just as well.

[Janax]

I used to be a loyal Debian user before I got my AMD64 laptop. I tried to use the 'subarch' of AMD64 on Debian for a while, but found that the chroot required to run 32 bit apps (like Firefox, openoffice, and mplayer) kind of a hassle.

I decided to give Gentoo a try, and found that:

• More packages were available, and more quickly than on Debian.
• The environment is so much better; 32-bit applications are seamless and do not require a chroot.
• Flexibility of the Gentoo system is simply much greater by design (USE flags, etc).
• Only a few apps (like xorg, k3b, amarok) take long enough to compile that it seems to be a small bother. Usually I just do an update in the background while I'm working on something else anyway.

In the year and a half I've been using Gentoo, it's only gotten better as far as what we call the 'multilib' environment - the environment that supports both 32-bit and 64-bit libraries for apps. I find that use of the 32-bit apps is basically seamless (I'm using a 32-bit version of firefox right now to post this!).

I recommend just splitting off about 6GB or so and giving Gentoo a try. I think you'll greatly enjoy it, as I have, once you get past the small learning curve of using 'portage' and USE flags.

Good luck!

p.s. You'll also find that this forum is great - you'll often get speedy replys to any problems you have. I wasn't having quite so much luck with Debian back then (it may have changed by now)...

[Xornot]

I believe the Debian stable 64 is supposed to work ok, but I can say from experience that installing Debian testing for AMD64 is a long way from working the way it's supposed too. ( I gave up, it was screwed up ). I had a much easier time getting gentoo up and going.

Iain

[wantilles]

Simply put, there is no official Debian AMD64.

[PaveQ]

how do gentoo users go about with the win32 codecs issue?

the people at ubuntu do chroot environment.

I decided not to watch wmv stuff. Mostly crap anyways.

[xanas3712]

Well I've used both a fair amount (kubuntu & gentoo that is, not debian which I never really cared for even though it's technically the base) and I'm not sure myself. Right now I'm using kubuntu dapper drake, but I was using gentoo for a long time. I wasn't unhappy with gentoo but I wanted to try something new.

My experience with kubuntu has been good and bad. There are just a few issues with it, that I think have to do with it being a binary distro. I have to install the newest version of libfaad for example since mplayer package requires it, yet since it doesn't work after I'm done installing I downgrade it back again to the one that works.

It's a lot faster to setup than gentoo though, and installing software takes less time. I would say apt-get and portage are about equal in terms of software availability, but portage has the advantage (since gentoo is source based) of being able to mix and match setups in a way that apt-get just cannot do. You can have problems like what i listed above where with gentoo it would just compile the software against what you have.

Of course you don't have to use binaries with a binary distro, you could install the source for things but if you wanted to remove anything you could run into issues there.

If it were possible (aside from running a chroot of gentoo, which i'm considering thanks to my abundance of hd space) to have both sets of package management at the same time (which it may, I admit ignorance here) and use both then that would be my personal preference. That's really all it comes down to for me. Sometimes binaries are nice and easy, and sometimes they are painful (because of dependency issues).

I think a binary based install with a system like portage for source installations on top of it would be the best (which is why I have been using kororaa for the other machines here, which is pretty nice that way to get things going fast).

[jonnevers]

how do gentoo users go about with the win32 codecs issue?

the people at ubuntu do chroot environment.

I decided not to watch wmv stuff. Mostly crap anyways.

This is actually the decision I made too though I don't believe the codecs themselves are crap (no more to say then this as a flamewar is unnecessary).

There was someone who made a 64-bit wrapper for the win32codecs... called win64codecs. AFAIK, this was still very buggy, required hoops to be jumped through in terms of programs to install and the project has been abandoned(?). (cannot find any links right now).

[Syntaxis]

Simply put, there is no official Debian AMD64.

"Don't judge a book by its cover", "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet", etc etc...

But seriously: the only thing unofficial about the AMD64 port was its being hosted somewhere other than the Debian master server due to resource constraints. However, now that the mirror split is completed, it's finally being relocated to the Debian master archive:

Anthony Towns reported about the inclusion of amd64 in Debian. The packages from build-essential are first rebuilt and uploaded and will be followed by the rest of the archive.

[Suicidal]

I have found that gentoo amd64 is basically alot like standard gentoo, I find very few apps that will not compile in it and for the most part it has great flexibility in building the system the way you want it. The only gripe I really have is that there are far too many apps that are masked that run perfectly fine.

On both of my machines (home && work) I run ~AMD64 Just because my package.keywords file was getting rediciliously huge, seems to run better ~arch anyway.

[SickBoy]

I think a binary based install with a system like portage for source installations on top of it would be the best (which is why I have been using kororaa for the other machines here, which is pretty nice that way to get things going fast).

Ever taken a look at Vidalinux? www.vidalinux.com