Dropping ~x86?

Message

zeveck · Post by **zeveck** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:35 pm

So...I've been playing with and learning about Gentoo for about 6 months now. I must say that to current it is my favorite Linux distro (out of, in order of exposure, Mandrake, RedHat, Debian, SuSE, Gentoo). To ease my learning curve I threw ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86" into my make.conf.

Now I am thinking of turning my Gentoo box into a web server.

Would it be prudent to drop ~x86? Any suggestions on the safest way to go about that?

The box isn't live yet...so it isn't like I have many configuration settings I need to retain...but enough that I don't want to just nuke the box and start over.

Suggestions?

luisfelipe · Post by **luisfelipe** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:45 pm

Well, actually, using ACCEPT_KEYWORDS is really not recommended. In any case whatsoever.
As I'm sure you must have seen elsewhere, x86 and ~x86 should be configured case by case
on /etc/portage/package.keywords .
I'm really surprised that you were able to keep the machine going for 6 months.

It would be really prudent to drop the ACCEPT_KEYWORDS from the make.conf file, and then
doing an emerge -auvDN world . But be assured that it's going to be a huge upgrade (or downgrade

).

hielvc · Post by **hielvc** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:48 pm

Backup you r/etc file, get a stage3 untar it and " emerge system -e && emerge world -e ". WHY because of glibc.

hielvc · Post by **hielvc** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:50 pm

Ive been running ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86" since ummm see my avatar info

smoked · Post by **smoked** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:17 am

luisfelipe wrote:Well, actually, using ACCEPT_KEYWORDS is really not recommended. In any case whatsoever.

Huh? I thought I'd read most of the docs on gentoo.org, but somehow I missed that policy. Could you point it out for me?
If not, you may want to change that sentence into: "I do not really..."

christsong84 · Post by **christsong84** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:35 am

smoked wrote:
luisfelipe wrote:Well, actually, using ACCEPT_KEYWORDS is really not recommended. In any case whatsoever.
Huh? I thought I'd read most of the docs on gentoo.org, but somehow I missed that policy. Could you point it out for me?
If not, you may want to change that sentence into: "I do not really..."

~x86 is the less stable things...things that are still in testing phase. Usually you use that to get the latest program, even though it hasn't finished the testing phase yet.

Since it's not necessarily stable and hasn't been tested strongly yet, usually it's not recommended.

smoked · Post by **smoked** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:52 am

christsong84 wrote:Since it's not necessarily stable and hasn't been tested strongly yet, usually it's not recommended.

Key word here: "usually". Gentoo is a bleeding edge distribution. Gentoo does not discourage use of ~x86. The docs simply tell you what it means and tell you to make up your own mind about whether you want to use it or not. If you can show me a document that says otherwise, please do so.

luisfelipe wrote:Well, actually, using ACCEPT_KEYWORDS is really not recommended. In any case whatsoever.

Now when you state something in as strong terms as luisfelipe did here, you imply that what you are stating is both common knowledge and established policy. This is neither. That's what I objected to. When you state a personal opinion, don't make it out to be a fact.

nmbrthry · Post by **nmbrthry** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:24 am

I am under the impression that while Gentoo does not discourage using ~x86, blindly doing ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86" is not considered a good thing to do. By specifying it on a per-package basis in package.keywords, it's easier to downgrade when a package doesn't work.

hielvc · Post by **hielvc** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:59 am

The problenm comes in which ever way you use ACCEPT_KEYWORDS and you end up with linux-headers and/or glibc as ~arch. If thats the case then the safest way to revert is by useing a stage3. You cant just down grade glibc or linux-headers it will bork your system usually quickly sometimes more slowly with wierd problems.

zeveck · Post by **zeveck** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:32 am

Hmmm...then I expect my system is fooked...but I'll see when it finishes its massive emerge.

Why can't those two packages be downgraded? Why doesn't portage explicitly stop them from downgrading if this happens?

hielvc · Post by **hielvc** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:01 am

linux-headers define the how to connect to the kernel, glibc is built against it proviging the functions and defines for progs to comunicate with the kernal. In other words its communication central for most ever thing built on your system. Whenever it is updated its defines can change. Thats why its safer not update the TC, see my tag. You call mary but you get Joe and your borked. If its only one or two minor revissions down grading might work, it did for me once, but I rebuilt everything. In most cases its easier, safer and quicker to use the stage3.

smoked · Post by **smoked** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:51 am

Ok, back from my hyperbole allergy sidetrack:

The recommended procedure to ensure system stability when changing versions of glibc or the toolchain is this:

Code: Select all

emerge -e system
emerge -e system
emerge -e world
emerge -e world

The motivation for this is discussed at length in this thread.
Robmoss sums it up well. Robmoss actually does work on GCC by the way.

If you do this you should be ok. It's quite a bit of compiling though.

Edit: That particular discussion starts here in that tread, it's long, so a direct link may be in order. The script hielvc's sig links to is based partially on this discussion.

luisfelipe · Post by **luisfelipe** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:13 pm

smoked wrote:
christsong84 wrote:Since it's not necessarily stable and hasn't been tested strongly yet, usually it's not recommended.
Key word here: "usually". Gentoo is a bleeding edge distribution. Gentoo does not discourage use of ~x86. The docs simply tell you what it means and tell you to make up your own mind about whether you want to use it or not. If you can show me a document that says otherwise, please do so.

luisfelipe wrote:Well, actually, using ACCEPT_KEYWORDS is really not recommended. In any case whatsoever.

Now when you state something in as strong terms as luisfelipe did here, you imply that what you are stating is both common knowledge and established policy. This is neither. That's what I objected to. When you state a personal opinion, don't make it out to be a fact.

Well, I didn't say use of ~x86 wasn't recommended. I use alot of ~x86 packages. What I said is that the use of ACCEPT_KEYWORDS is not recommended. You should setup everything on a case by case basis on /etc/portage/package.keywords.

I've read this in lots of places, so that's why I tought it was common knowledge. My mistake.

vipernicus · Post by **vipernicus** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:04 pm

I use it on a case by case basis, too many bugs in ~x86 repository to upgrade everything, it's like there could be a new version of hal or dbus that nothing works with, and everyone would upgrade blindly just to watch stuff break...

micah_death · Post by **micah_death** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:01 pm

If your machine is running well I'd leave it... Be careful with any new upgrades (you should be anyhow reguardless of any flags)

I use ~x86 and my machine has been running perfect for 6months plus as well.

zeveck · Post by **zeveck** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:19 pm

Well...my concern is that my machine has been running well under light load, and that the problems with ~x86 are more likely to crop of when the machine is actually in production. Also, I am concerned about the potential security ramifications of running ~x86.

Which reminds me...is there a way to make glsa-check keep a log of which packages it has upgraded?

smoked · Post by **smoked** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:31 pm

zeveck wrote:Well...my concern is that my machine has been running well under light load, and that the problems with ~x86 are more likely to crop of when the machine is actually in production. Also, I am concerned about the potential security ramifications of running ~x86.

Which reminds me...is there a way to make glsa-check keep a log of which packages it has upgraded?

Hmm, production? Are we talking some sort of mission critical application here? If we are I'd definitely recommend a clean install running x86 with minimal USE flags and installed applications.

acdispatcher · Post by **acdispatcher** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:18 am

I built and run my system ~x86. For me if it breaks - so what Ill learn.

That being said if I want to go x86 could I not just take "ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86"" out of my make.conf and within say 6 months the regular package set will catch up?

EDIT:
Nevermind. I just "#" it in my make.conf and did a emerge -uvp world. That was ugly

Only way then would be to use the emerge -U world option. But thats not good either

luisfelipe · Post by **luisfelipe** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:24 am

If you take the ACCEPT_KEYWORDS out of your make.conf, then after your next
emerge -avuD world your system will catch up. Everything will be downgraded.

mbello · Post by **mbello** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:39 am

Saying that someone managed to maintain a system with ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86" means nothing. Everything is fixable after all.

The question is how much time have you spent fixing all kinds of problems / dealing with faulty apps, downgrading specific apps that are too unstable, etc...

Thankfully, you are free to do whatever you want. We actually need you to post bug reports, find/fix bugs, etc.

But, if you use your computer as a tool to get some work done stick with ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="x86" and your life will be easier.

When I began using Gentoo, one year ago (after 5 years using linux), I liked it but was spending way too much time maintaining the distro. I found out about revdep-rebuild and it helped a lot, but was still requiring too much time to just keep things working. Then I decided to ban ~x86 out of my system (I had quite a few apps running the ~x86 version) and my life became easier.