Gentoo is coming off!

Message

geir · Post by **geir** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:11 pm

Sorry, I am getting really frustrated now and quite frankly rather fed up with the whole desktop "linux experience". I have been a Linux user for 10 years now, and I work with Linux and Unix on an every day basis. As a matter of fact, I have been running Linux exclusively as my desktop at home for the last 5 years.

Now however, I am bored. Especially with Gentoo. Today I wanted to update my Evolution client and Firefox, so I do an emerge sync and yepp, there are updates to both. Next, emerge -u evolution.

Tons of errors, some crap about Linux 2.6.8 headers. I never asked to download and update those, all I wanted was evolution. Search forums, find a solution, make the changes to the config files etc, and do it again.

Now it is downloading x-org stuff. What the smeg! I never wanted x-org stuff. Tried it once, could not get ET up and running with it, don't want it. All I want is an email client update.

I am not happy, and Gentoo will be coming off as soon as I can get my files backed up.

To make things worse is the fact that I have bought a digital camera recently, and working with Raw files in Microsoft Windows with Photoshop CS is just sooooo pleasant. (I have a separate computer for this)

With Linux you have to fuss around a hell of a lot before the system even manages to recognise your Raw files. And I have not found something that will even give me remotely anything like CS control over my Raw files.

Yes, I am getting frustrated, and there is a good chance that I will just stop using Linux as my desktop system. It is just not worth the aggro anymore.

Sorry about the rant. I do not think most free software can be as good as commercial. AIX and Solaris are both far superior to Linux (try Solaris 10 on Intel), Gimp doesn't even begin to touch Photoshop. Linux on the desktop is a dream which will not happen for a long time, a loooooong time.

-Geir

vonhelmet · Post by **vonhelmet** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:17 pm

You could easily stop portage upgrading to x.org if you read a few of the docs and told it not to. It's not like people never have problems with Windows XP arbitrarily upgrading to, oooh, Service Pack 2.

nightm4re · Post by **nightm4re** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:46 pm

geir wrote:And I have not found something that will even give me remotely anything like CS control over my Raw files.
...
Gimp doesn't even begin to touch Photoshop.

so, why not try using photoshop with wine? i'm not sure about CS yet but i know for sure my copy of adobe photoshop 7 runs perfect under wine (save the save for web feature, but i dont use that).

anyway, sorry it's not working out for you. better luck to you back in whatever other operating system you choose to use.

idl · Post by **idl** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:17 pm

Goodbye.

frenkel · Post by **frenkel** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:26 pm

With soo much experience, you don't know how to stop it upgrading? I'd say READ THE DOCUMENTATION.

Good luck,
Frank

pientra · Post by **pientra** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:53 pm

If you think Gentoo is so hard. Then try Mandrake. That's easier, but of course you'd know. You have a lot of experience with Linux.

Well, have fun without Gentoo. GOOD LUCK!

EDIT: I agree with you though. Gentoo takes a lot of time, but imho it's worth it.

Vann · Post by **Vann** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:00 pm

If you can't even take the time to complain articulately, why should anyone take the time to understand, let alone enact, what you're saying?

Frankly, everything you have just said has been said a thousand times over. Did you really think it was necessary to say it again?

AIX and Solaris are both far superior to Linux (try Solaris 10 on Intel)

Then use AIX or Solaris 10 on Intel. Why would you subject yourself to an experience as "painful" as Gentoo? That's just stupid.

Sodki · Post by **Sodki** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:56 pm

geir wrote:Next, emerge -u evolution.

geir wrote:All I want is an email client update.

$ man emerge

--update (-u)
Updates packages to the best version available, which may not always be the highest version number due to masking for testing and development. This will also update direct dependencies which may not be what you want. In general, use this option only in combination with the world or system target.

Gilbo · Post by **Gilbo** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:41 pm

Many serious photographers, myself included, consider Bibble to be superior to ACR. It is available for Linux.

In fact, many individuals consider it to be comparable to C1. IMO it is superior, even if you're going to run it in Windows, due to its more flexible and powerful interface. It is closed source, but, from your post, it seems you might actually consider that to be a plus

--although I'm not sure what magic the closed source development process offers.

Personally, I have little doubt that open source image processing software will be comparable to closed source options in a few more years. The GIMP is certainly improving far more quickly than Photoshop, and, did you know that ACR, which you praise so highly, wouldn't exist without free software? Do not condemn so callously the open source development process. In the longterm it offers far more to the world than non-free software. Laziness and lack of patience is the true problem here.

geir · Post by **geir** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:57 pm

Hi again,
I am sorry I am getting a little ratty about some of this. As for some of the more sensible replies:

No, I have not tried CS or 7 with Wine, to be honest, sorting out problems all day does not make me want all that fuss when I get home. I guess I am getting old since I want an easier life.

Mandrake is interesting enough, apart from the fact that trying to resolve some of the dependency hell you can get into takes it out of you in five minutes. Debian would be a better choice.

As for the Danish dude: It used to be worth it with Gentoo, but again, I guess I am getting old. These days I want to use my computer more and configure less

And when it comes to Bibble, I have never even heard of it, so thanks for that. It is definitely something I will look into. I am not as serious as you, just like to take pictures and have the ability to play with the exposure settings etc afterwards.

I am not unreasonable (even if parts of my post was for which I will apologise), I just get very grumpy sometimes. Especially since I like to play ET (which now does not work because xorg and nvidia does not seem to be very good friends). And as said, I also think this is something that has come with age (not that I am that old, but for some funny reason, the tinkering has lost some of it's shine)

Oh well, now I certainly cannot use ET as I seem to be stuck with xorg.

And yes, I will read all the posts about getting the NVidia driver up and running properly (even though it does not look all that hopeful from the posts that I have seen so far).

-Geir

apaton · Post by **apaton** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:21 pm

I agree Linux Desktop has a longway to go, but education and choice has to be the path it must travel. You have to keep the faith!

Is Gentoo a good desktop Linux? may be not the best but have you tried to use Sun's JDS 2003 release now thats poor! (Im sure its going to get better)

The desktop is far more complex and interactive than a server enviorment.
People don't have a protocol, we work in many diffrent ways and like what we like and hate what we don't like. You have to your hat off to Apple,Microsoft and other developers who make the Home/Office desktop so easy to use.

People don't have to use IE, how many semi-techs have moved to firefox? The same will be abount MS word. I used Staroffice solidily since version 4, but yet to be weened off Visio, but that day will come.

--
apaton
First UNIX: 1986, AT&T Unix Version 7 on a Digital PDP 11/44

jamiethehutt · Post by **jamiethehutt** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:50 pm

geir try a Mac, Unix but without the hassle, and the Mini isn't going to break the bank.

Linux often frustrates me, but I've found things suddenly get much better when you avoid large packages. Don't get Open Office, get Abiword (2.2 is awesome!) and Gnumeric. Don't get KDE, get Enlightenment, its prettier and faster anyway. But there doesn't seem to be small applications to do everything - nothing, for me, beats Konqueror for file management.

Some days I just want to learn C and solve the problems (tear out whatever Konqueror uses for its I/O slaves and make something around that), some days I just want a Mac. Programming for my collage course comes naturally so the C route appeals more often you'll be happy to hear.

geir · Post by **geir** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:33 pm

......and quite a few hours later, after some nasty problems, I am up and running with X again. This time xorg and yes, ET still works....siiiighhh....I guess I am not ready to give up quite yet

As for Macs, believe me, I want one. But they are too expensive, and since I want tons of camera equipment as well (Canon Eos 20D is my preferred choice) something has got to give.

-Geir

gunmanX · Post by **gunmanX** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:00 am

Sorry, I am getting really frustrated now and quite frankly rather fed up with the whole desktop "Winbloze experience". I have been a Winbloze user for 10 years now, and I work with Winbloze XP and Winbloze 2000 on an every day basis. As a matter of fact, I have been running Winbloze XP exclusively as my desktop at home for the last 5 years.

Now however, I am bored. Especially with MS. Today I wanted to update my Winbloze Internet Explorer and typed in the wrong URL, so about 20 million pieces of adware got installed on my pc without my authorization and yepp, I had the latest Winbloze updates.

Tons of errors, some crap about Weatherbug and 40 different windows opening up with when IE launches. I never asked to haves these installed, all I wanted was to get to www.google.com. Search forums, find a adware removal tool, and do it again.

Now it is downloading Winbloze XP SP2 stuff. What the smeg! I never wanted the Windows firewall suff. Tried it once, could not get any thing that used network traffic up and running with it, don't want it. All I want is my Bill Gates to come up and say now my pc is 100% safe.

I am not happy, and Winbloze will be coming off as soon as I can get my files backed up.

To make things worse is the fact that I have bought a digital camera recently, and working with Raw files in Gentoo with Gimp is just sooooo pleasant. (All I had to do is look up raw files in a support forum.)

Yes, I am getting frustrated, and there is a good chance that I will just stop using Winbloze as my desktop system. It is just not worth the aggro anymore.

Sorry about the rant. I do not think most free software can be as good as commercial but Gentoo rocks!!!! AIX and Solaris are both far in-superior to Linux (try Solaris 10 on Intel), Gimp is better than Photoshop for people that know how to read a support forum. Linux on the desktop is a dream which came true with Gentoo!!! I love Linux and will never go back to Winbloze again!

-GunmanX
Gentoo NewB

Trejkaz · Post by **Trejkaz** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:29 am

Solaris 10 on Intel? Go ahead... throw your CPU cycles away!

thechris · Post by **thechris** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:48 am

I think one reason there is no real linux-desktop is because of the whole GUI (gasp) thing. if you mention GUI (gasp) amonst many linux-folk, especially linux-folk developers, you hear that the CLI is better and you'd better just learn it... well, thats not very desktop-like. also, no app has decent GUI configurability yet.

jamiethehutt · Post by **jamiethehutt** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:36 pm

Trejkaz wrote:Solaris 10 on Intel? Go ahead... throw your CPU cycles away!

Given this distro we all use compiles 99% of applications from source we can hardly speak.

Twist · Post by **Twist** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:34 am

Pick your poison. I am a very experienced software developer and user. I own several x86 machines, an AMD Athlon (server), couple of PPC boxes. I run Gentoo, OpenBSD, Knoppix, Win2K, Win9X (when I have to for old games etc), OS/X, WinXP. Oh and DOS but that hardly counts (and occasionally AmigaOS in emulation, as well as several others of that era).

Of the modern operating systems, all of them have issues in a desktop environment. Linux, and Gentoo Linux included, are a bit on the high maintenance side if you want latest and greatest. OS/X is extremely pretty, does everything it wants you to do very well, and stops dead in its tracks whenever you want to do something unexpected. WinXP has universal driver support and the best games/apps for about any area you want to pick, but it is inherently unstable, prone to eventual failure requiring reinstall no matter how well you upkeep it, and full of overt and heavy handed attempts to force you to use one technology (tied to Microsoft and its dollars) in pursuit of some other end.

I have been using computers more than twenty five years. I know what I am doing, and if I don't, I can figure it out. I make enough money (at my professional computing job) to allow me to choose whichever OS/hardware I wish to run as my desktop environment.

I use Gentoo Linux. Linux because it has the stability I absolutely need for my daily desktop machine, the one that does my mail, the one I do media serving from, the one I need to ssh into at any time from the road, the one I can depend on not to throw up its little cpu paws when I write bad code and run it. Gentoo because I agree with it philosophically and I'm fairly obsessive about my personal sense of "getting it right" when it comes to installs and what to have on my system, and Gentoo provides the best flexibility for that.

I use WinXP for playing games. I would not willingly use it as my daily machine for matters of importance at home. It is unstable, mediocre in performance, offers no flexibility whatsoever except in its apps, and I'm not into supporting some of the more heavy handed machinations of Microsoft.

Sure, you may be impressed by whatever niche app you've found that ran beautifully under Windows. Will you be impressed by the gaping, mile wide security holes in that OS when you are running it daily? Will you be impressed when you buy a piece of hardware and the driver install, which is given free and easy access to ring 0, causes other hardware to fail or mysteriously locks up your machine? Will you be impressed by paying to be forced into DRM compliance against your wishes?

It depends on what you want. If what you want is your magic app, run Windows. No argument from me, best tool for the job. If what you want is choice, flexibility, stability, then you are making the wrong decision.

-Twist

Boohbah · Post by **Boohbah** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:05 pm

Why did anyone waste time replying to this troll?

user317 · Post by **user317** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:08 pm

why the hell is it in the Desktop section anyways?

G2k · Post by **G2k** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:50 pm

Why did anyone waste time replying to this troll?

because the difference between Linux and Windows is that when you're unsatisfied with Linux people come to your aid and try to solve the problem. In Windows you have nobody to complain to. So in the end even if nobody truly cares whether you stick to Linux or not, at least we try to convince others that it can be fixed and improved. If they're still not convinced, as port001 said, "Goodbye."

plbe · Post by **plbe** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:01 pm

I've been using *nix exclusively as a desktop since 99, freebsd for most of that time and I find gentoo too make a very good desktop for _my_ needs. Of course everyones needs may differ but for me I couldn't be happier....well I'll be happier when we get reverse deps

zxiiro · Post by **zxiiro** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:59 am

can't you just do

Code: Select all

emerge evolution

???

as far as i know the

Code: Select all

emerge -u <package>

just means to update the package + all of it's dependencies

Lews_Therin · Post by **Lews_Therin** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:12 am

How can you have used Linux for 10 years, and yet not know how to use the "man" command?

Archangel1 · Post by **Archangel1** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:50 am

I'm with xiiro on this. You specifically told Portage to update Evolution and all it's dependencies, then post on here that you "only wanted Evolution"?
Sorry, but the problem isn't Portage - it's doing what it's told. The problem lies between keyboard and chair.

Oh, Solaris 10 on Intel - from what I've heard, hardware support is shit. No way I'd be going there - at least with Linux you can generally guarantee someone else has hit the problem before you.

Gentoo is coming off!

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