The real zealots exposed

Message

VolcomPimp · Post by **VolcomPimp** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:12 am

well apparently I was banned from #debian on freenode for using
knoppix because of a few childish ops....
I was asking a few questions about debootstrap problems I was
having and an op not even in the discussion decides to place
a ban which redirects all knoppix users to #knoppix and continued
to talk sh** about gentoo and knoppix users....
I mean seriously, are they that but hurt that gentoo and knoppix
are better distros that they must go around acting like 10 year olds
and calling us zealots??? obviously they've never been here if
we're zealots compared to them, because the ppl here
actually help you out and don't go around actin like children,
especially not the ops.
I continued to have a convo w/ the op for a few mins in which he
critized me for making a few assumptions of my own, which only makes
sense if they are going to make assumptions about all gentoo users
and all knoppix users by placing bans and talking smack.
something stupid he said was about knoppix users being too stupid
to change their info b4 logging on which means they deserve to
be redirected... ok, if you're using knoppix, why would you change
your info every time you boot if its not being saved (unless you setup a home dir)?
then I decided to login on my laptop and rejoin on a similar name since
I'm using debian on my laptop, which I'd say entitles me to be there
just as much as the next guy, but I was banned immediatly.
Next thing I see in #knoppix was 1 of the other ops asking what
the default hostmask for knoppix is.

Debian is supposed to be the mature project of all linux's.
Shouldn't they start acting like it? I thought we were the 'zealots'
(at least thats what I hear)
I was about to switch my desktop machine over to debian but
thank god I hadn't... looks like I'll be installing gentoo w/ reiser4 this time.

solomonHk · Post by **solomonHk** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:16 am

What happened to the days when linux was the community, and the distro was nothing more than your flavor?
I agree with you. This type of childish behavoir is what kills communities. Linux, to me, is about sharing. That includes information, etc, etc.

I feel for you pimp.

Stormy Eyes · Post by **Stormy Eyes** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:29 am

Well, if Debian dies, its zealots can either blame themselves or God. Why waste time on them, pimp? If they want to be fools, they'll only harm themselves in the end.

SlicerDicer · Post by **SlicerDicer** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:43 am

thats just sad.

wilburpan · Post by **wilburpan** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:45 am

That's all right. I had a very similar experience with a Debian forum. So instead of switching from SuSE to Debian, I switched from SuSE to Gentoo. That was about 1 1/2 years ago, and I haven't looked back.

zeek · Post by **zeek** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:04 am

Yes I am a Gentoo zealot and proud of it.

Yo Debian! From Gentoo with love!

Souperman · Post by **Souperman** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:59 am

zeek wrote:Yo Debian! From Gentoo with love!
Code: Select all
<insert ascii crap>

Wow, I think you just completely missed the point.

jay · Post by **jay** » Fri May 14, 2004 8:36 am

I use both distros and I have to admit that the Debian users are a little more arrogant than the others. But we shouldn't let Gentoo going this way.

TenPin · Post by **TenPin** » Fri May 14, 2004 9:16 am

Argh, why can't people just say "Oh look another Linux user, lets try and help out."

Maybe once Windows is on only 5% of all dekstops we can afford split the Linux community into factions.

Twoform · Post by **Twoform** » Fri May 14, 2004 9:27 am

Linux, to me, is about sharing.

Linux is about communism. I'm sure you knew that.

lightvhawk0 · Post by **lightvhawk0** » Fri May 14, 2004 9:49 am

Linux is about having a commons. Not communism. Communism is closer related to totlarianism with bases on socialism. Either why I feel that excluding you're self from the entire community is counter productive to the Open source community, and to civilization itself.

myuser · Post by **myuser** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:11 pm

It always amuses me the arrogance of some IT people. Generally they are new to IT and know just enough to be dangerous. There is always something new to learn, and a new perspective to look at something, but because of the huge time investment most people prefer to bitch or abuse their privileges.

I can only see that someone should be kicked from a chatroom if all they are doing is spamming it with many ludicrously formed (and I mean the literal sense, not the subjective I think you are wrong ones) repeated message or advertisements. Even then I think the ignore feature is more powerful.

I started using the ignore feature on a few channels and it is amazing how you can change the environment from a sneering, self possessed one into one that actually produces the goods in terms of discussion and information.

I would go so far to say, that the kick capability should be removed and the ignore feature should be highlighted more. Kick someone and they change nick or change ip, ignore them and they just stop (well they might not stop but hey you don't know or care).

So, if you enter Debian again at the first sign of trouble just hit the ignore, don't tell them you are ignoring them, don't get a quip back in, just hit ignore.

Now I am not sure if ignore works both ways, it should really, but I suspect it doesn't. So, if it doesn't work the other way i.e. they can still see your chat then that feature if present should be made more obvious, and if not present should be included.

Ceapollo · Post by **Ceapollo** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:20 pm

This is the one reason that i love the gentoo forms so much. How many times have i seen a post about people using anther distro and everone just gives support. Its to bad that the other distros are like that

. Oh well i don't plan on changing from gentoo any time soon.

Souperman · Post by **Souperman** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:22 pm

myuser wrote:Now I am not sure if ignore works both ways

It doesn't, at least not in any ircd I've ever seen.

VolcomPimp · Post by **VolcomPimp** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:41 pm

Actually it really wasn't an issue that could've been solved w/
an ignore. I was talking to one user who kept dragging
out his responce which I let him finish completely before i was
going to continue on, no trouble what so ever...
Out of nowhere, one of the ops decided to create the ban
and started talkin smack about knoppix while another user
starts bringin gentoo into it.
After the action was done, all the talkin started up between
me and the op who banned all users w/ the knoppix prefix
in their mask, and another op starts tryin 2 talk smack to me
in pm and started to talk in #knoppix askin ppl what the default
mask for knoppix was, which was sort of a smack in the face because
they could have just left it at that but he started to bring the issue
over to the knoppix users (who I must say arent always the brightest)
and at first I was called a 'baby' like my name stated (AfgBaby - from CKY)
for simply tellin the op from the other channel his actions were
immature and explaining briefly what happened...
I read silently as the discussion led on between him and a few in the
channel who at first decided I was a 'baby', and the next thing I know
their stealing my arguement except they took his sincerity seriously
which to me just sounded like bs since he was bashing these ppl 2 mins
b4... And in the end, none of his arguements to why ppl went to #debian
were valid. He was trying to pass off that ppl didn't wanna be there
and assumed there was an autojoin to #debian, he couldn't comprehend
that some people actually use knoppix who use debian for whatever
reason, and some how managed to not realize that knoppix users
ussually go to install debian.
Basicly the guy was a moron and doesn't understand community...
These guys shelter themselves off from everyone else as if they
are superior. Although a debian user myself, the experience really
turns me off from wanting to continue using it.
I've even coined the term 'WannaBsd' out of boredom.

myuser · Post by **myuser** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:42 pm

Places like #debian #gentoo #perl #java #c on freenode, are more than the channel operators, they are a community resource and in many instance also owned trademarks.

Having channel operator privileges leads to channel takeovers, misrepresentation of the product by someone appearing in a position of authority, it also adheres to a cathedral structure when the basic philosophy of Open Source is the bazaar.

Some channel admins have nearly made these universally known names, into their own private channels, if they want their own channels they should just go and set up one, I am sure #iamapatheticloozer or derivatives are available somewhere.

We don't need kick, kick and channel admins just reflect the cathedral idea, I would like to see the bazaar in irc, where the individual is fully empowered with ignore on both input and output.

charlieg · Post by **charlieg** » Fri May 14, 2004 5:35 pm

Twoform wrote:
Linux, to me, is about sharing.
Linux is about communism. I'm sure you knew that.

Linux is Free Software. Free Software is about freedom and choice.

Communism is not about freedom and choice.

myuser · Post by **myuser** » Fri May 14, 2004 5:35 pm

I think ignore could have worked in your example.

Instead of banning / kicking you, he would just have ignored you.

OSS has a core belief that people do not want Nannys, who did this guy think he was protecting, apart from his own precious ego.

Ignore leaves everything in the hands of the person. A person should be able to control who messages are sent out to and who they receive from (to prevent harassment). This is a virtual reality and I don't think we need to resort only to concepts used in physical reality.

A filter, controlled by each user, to remove all postings of a particular person would be useful as well. This would quickly clean up the display after someone decided to spam a channel, whilst still allowing those who wish to see the post.

I read somewhere about someone deriding open source software, saying that people often try and join a project but have difficulties and so go off and write another irc client. I think another irc client and server should be written. But, this time communication should be looked at from the virtual reality side.

The more I think about this the more sense it makes. IRC can at times be seen as an extension to a game, where the objective is to take over a channel or toady yourself into channel op rights, it really is quite childish, and just hampers life for those who don't wish to play. IRC needs to grow up.

Places like Freenode are going in the correct direction, have a browse of freenode's policies and you will see the problems center around the channel operators. Freenode doesn't want to get involved with childish squabbles, and they don't have to (currently they just literally ignore it), there exists a logic that will allow communication to flow as free as any person likes or dislikes, it just needs to be implemented.

avenj · Post by **avenj** » Fri May 14, 2004 6:45 pm

Communism is not about freedom and choice.

Sure it is, just as much as capitalism is; you just misunderstand it because of all the totalitarian dictatorships claiming to be communist (they're not). Most of them have "democratic" in the name, too; does that mean democracy is defined as totalitarian control? 8)

Bague · Post by **Bague** » Fri May 14, 2004 9:40 pm

Communism is not about freedom and choice.

I agree with what avenj just said, Russia wasn't a real communism, nor is/was China.

To me, Open source is about working together, having free choice, and for the greater possibilities of technology.

I agree that /ignore should be both ways.

Places like #debian #gentoo #perl #java #c on freenode, are more than the channel operators, they are a community resource and in many instance also owned trademarks.

Large communities tend to have a-holes. For instance, I was on #c once asking for help on installing the GTK+ libraries because I wanted to make C programs that were not just terminal programs, and some guy tells me "You are trying to install packages for a widget toolkit you don't know how to use with libraries you don't know how to access on a programming language you don't know", problem was, my problem was locating the gtk+ libraries, I did know generally what I was doing.

If you think someone is being stupid, don't insult them, help them.

Kihaji · Post by **Kihaji** » Fri May 14, 2004 10:21 pm

*cough*

Pot, kettle here, your black.

craftyc · Post by **craftyc** » Fri May 14, 2004 10:52 pm

Kihaji wrote: *cough*

Pot, kettle here, your black.

That thread is about people not willing to learn. This thread is about people not willing to help. There is a difference.

And doesn't the frying pan call the pot black?

really · Post by **really** » Fri May 14, 2004 11:09 pm

Linux is not communism its anarchism.

solomonHk · Post by **solomonHk** » Fri May 14, 2004 11:45 pm

strangely free market has only been linked to capitalism.

searcher · Post by **searcher** » Fri May 14, 2004 11:54 pm

VolcomPimp wrote:well apparently I was banned from #debian on freenode for using knoppix because of a few childish ops....

And please, tell me again why i should give a flying f**k? If you wanna whine about this, go to the ops. If you happen to have a serious support question i'd be happy to help.

~searcher

The real zealots exposed

The real zealots exposed

Re: The real zealots exposed