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CliveHarris n00b

Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 66 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:02 pm Post subject: Richard Stallman's thoughts on Gentoo |
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I went to a lecture by RMS last night and, in the discussion afterwards, I asked him if he had any recommendations about Linux distributions (sorry, GNU/Linux distributions!). The gist of his answer was that the only distro he unreservedly supported was "Ubuntu", but Gentoo came out better than most because it would only install packages the user specifically asked for, so you know exactly what you're getting. His main criticism was the inclusion of "unfree" packages in the portage tree.
When I explained to him about the package masking policy, where "unsafe" packages had to be specifically asked for, he approved and thought it was a step in the right direction.
I think to get him fully onside you would have to mask or remove all the "non-GPL-compatable" packages. However, perhaps there is a case for having a keyword or USE flag which would allow a "pure GPL" user to filter out incompatible packages.
As for myself, I'm not quite so particular. I've installed the Nvidia graphics drivers and a few other "unfree" packages. I don't like it but I'm willing to compromise where necessary.
By the way, after that we grabbed Richard's laptop to see what he was running. It turned out to be a customised version of Debian. |
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moocha Watchman

Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 5722
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see a way to do that *and* at the same time not to fall into the same trap as Debian, namely a slow development cycle... That's the good thing about distributions - there are so many of them that one can choose if one doesn't like one  _________________ Military Commissions Act of 2006: http://tinyurl.com/jrcto
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- attributed to Benjamin Franklin |
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PingEnt Tux's lil' helper

Joined: 05 Apr 2003 Posts: 89 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Richard Stallman's thoughts on Gentoo |
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CliveHarris wrote: | I think to get him fully onside you would have to mask or remove all the "non-GPL-compatable" packages. However, perhaps there is a case for having a keyword or USE flag which would allow a "pure GPL" user to filter out incompatible packages. | Hmm, I think I've heard/read something about a "ACCEPT_LICENSE=" keyword thing that is being devolped for Portage, but maybe I've dreamt the whole thing  _________________ Thanks for reading. This has been a PingEnt presentation. |
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miqorz Veteran


Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 1170 Location: Pissing into the wind.
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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So the Lord thy God has spoken. SO IT SHALL BE DONE. |
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Stormy Eyes Veteran


Joined: 09 Apr 2003 Posts: 1064 Location: Watching God spit-shine my boots.
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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It's not like "non-free" packages are installed by default. You have to ask for a non-GPL package just like you have to ask for everything else, so what's Stallman's beef? |
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miqorz Veteran


Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 1170 Location: Pissing into the wind.
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Stormy Eyes wrote: | It's not like "non-free" packages are installed by default. You have to ask for a non-GPL package just like you have to ask for everything else, so what's Stallman's beef? |
He's a GPL zealot, but can you blame him? |
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CliveHarris n00b

Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 66 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:14 pm Post subject: Is he ... like Bill Gates? |
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After I got back from the meeting, I told my 9-year-old daughter that I had met the man who had written most of the programs on her computer. She looked puzzled for a minute and then said "Is he very famous - you know - like Bill Gates? He must be very rich! Did you shake his hand?" |
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Stormy Eyes Veteran


Joined: 09 Apr 2003 Posts: 1064 Location: Watching God spit-shine my boots.
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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miqorz wrote: | So the Lord thy God has spoken. SO IT SHALL BE DONE. |
Get it right, man. It's supposed to be "So it shall be written. So it shall be done." (Eddie 6:66), 'cos Iron Maiden fucking rules. |
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miqorz Veteran


Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 1170 Location: Pissing into the wind.
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Stormy Eyes wrote: | miqorz wrote: | So the Lord thy God has spoken. SO IT SHALL BE DONE. |
Get it right, man. It's supposed to be "So it shall be written. So it shall be done." (Eddie 6:66), 'cos Iron Maiden fucking rules. |
I know this, But he said it - So it isn't written!  |
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CliveHarris n00b

Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 66 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | It's not like "non-free" packages are installed by default. You have to ask for a non-GPL package just like you have to ask for everything else, so what's Stallman's beef |
I think his point was that you shouldn't be able to ACCIDENTLY install non-GPL packages. i.e. you shouldn't get them unless you specifically ask for them. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I can see his point.
By the way. No, I didn't shake hands with him. I'm sure all celebrities must get heartily sick of sycophants "pressing the flesh" just to brag about it afterwards! |
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miqorz Veteran


Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 1170 Location: Pissing into the wind.
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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If I ever met RMS, he'd kick my ass for using FreeBSD, lol.  |
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Stormy Eyes Veteran


Joined: 09 Apr 2003 Posts: 1064 Location: Watching God spit-shine my boots.
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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CliveHarris wrote: | I think his point was that you shouldn't be able to ACCIDENTLY install non-GPL packages. i.e. you shouldn't get them unless you specifically ask for them. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I can see his point. |
How in the dark eternal do you install something like Flash or RealPlayer by accident? How do you install anything in Gentoo by accident? I can understand installing something unwanted as a dependency, or if you're drunk, but by accident? |
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miqorz Veteran


Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 1170 Location: Pissing into the wind.
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Stormy Eyes wrote: | CliveHarris wrote: | I think his point was that you shouldn't be able to ACCIDENTLY install non-GPL packages. i.e. you shouldn't get them unless you specifically ask for them. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I can see his point. |
How in the dark eternal do you install something like Flash or RealPlayer by accident? How do you install anything in Gentoo by accident? I can understand installing something unwanted as a dependency, or if you're drunk, but by accident? |
I think he means installing something without knowing it's not GPL. |
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richk449 Guru


Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 345
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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From what CliveHarris said, Stallman liked Gentoo because you don't have to worry about "accidentally installing real player" or something like it. He is making a contrast between Gentoo, where the user makes all the choices, and the RedHat/Suse/Mandrake/etc type distros where there is a default installation that often includes non-free (as in freedom) software.
Miqorz - you should just put the fact that you run BSD in your sig, so that you dont have to bring it up in every thread. |
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Athas Guru


Joined: 04 Sep 2003 Posts: 394 Location: Brøndby, Denmark
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Stormy Eyes wrote: | CliveHarris wrote: | I think his point was that you shouldn't be able to ACCIDENTLY install non-GPL packages. i.e. you shouldn't get them unless you specifically ask for them. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I can see his point. |
How in the dark eternal do you install something like Flash or RealPlayer by accident? How do you install anything in Gentoo by accident? I can understand installing something unwanted as a dependency, or if you're drunk, but by accident? |
Subtle nonfree packages kan be pulled in as dependencies. Personally, I'd a USE-flag that made Portage barf if it encountered a nonfree license in a package it was about to install. Then I would be able to deal with it on a case by case basis.
Quote: | If I ever met RMS, he'd kick my ass for using FreeBSD, lol. Laughing |
I doubt it, apart from the fact that Stallman isn't very strong, his website used to run on FreeBSD. _________________ Emacs-optimized danish console keymap - My .emacs
Climacs - next generation Emacs. |
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miqorz Veteran


Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 1170 Location: Pissing into the wind.
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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richk449 wrote: | From what CliveHarris said, Stallman liked Gentoo because you don't have to worry about "accidentally installing real player" or something like it. He is making a contrast between Gentoo, where the user makes all the choices, and the RedHat/Suse/Mandrake/etc type distros where there is a default installation that often includes non-free (as in freedom) software.
Miqorz - you should just put the fact that you run BSD in your sig, so that you dont have to bring it up in every thread. |
lol  |
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spb Retired Dev


Joined: 02 Jan 2004 Posts: 2135 Location: Cambridge, UK
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Athas wrote: | Personally, I'd a USE-flag that made Portage barf if it encountered a nonfree license in a package it was about to install. Then I would be able to deal with it on a case by case basis. | GLEP 23. |
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ciaranm Retired Dev


Joined: 19 Jul 2003 Posts: 1719 Location: In Hiding
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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We had this discussion with him a while back... He started out demanding that we removed all non-Free stuff from the tree, and then backed down to "only accept fsf-approved licences by default" when GLEP 23 was mentioned. |
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senectus Guru


Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 534
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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RMS is a legend
But I honestly believe that by the time his hard on for "GPL ONLY" environments are a commercial possibility, he'll be well past caring.
But you always need "extremist hippies" to balance out the evil being done by the capitalist henchmen currently wrecking the world.
edit: yes I'm aware of how contradicting the above statements are
RMS is a powerhouse of philosophical brilliance.. I just think that he's come too early _________________ 2800+XP A7N8X FX6600GT
www.modmeup.net |
Belief is 9/10 of YOUR reality.
Wise man say: A skilled troll is a master baiter. |
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ciaranm Retired Dev


Joined: 19 Jul 2003 Posts: 1719 Location: In Hiding
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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senectus wrote: | RMS is a legend
But I honestly believe that by the time his hard on for "GPL ONLY" environments are a commercial possibility, he'll be well past caring. |
Well, since you need some *BSD licenced stuff to be able to build the "GPL ONLY" userland, that's kinda tricky... I think he cares more about "FSF approved" licences than purely GPL. |
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pjp Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20630
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Richard Stallman's thoughts on Gentoo |
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CliveHarris wrote: | I think to get him fully onside | I didn't know we were trying. RMS can keep is unreasonable ideals to himself, and the software he develops. Thanks. _________________ Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
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tomk Bodhisattva


Joined: 23 Sep 2003 Posts: 7221 Location: Sat in front of my computer
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Richard Stallman's thoughts on Gentoo |
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CliveHarris wrote: | However, perhaps there is a case for having a keyword or USE flag which would allow a "pure GPL" user to filter out incompatible packages. |
Me and a few others wrote a licenses2kill script which will remove any packages with licenses that you don't want. _________________ Search | Read | Answer | Report | Strip |
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wdreinhart Guru

Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 569 Location: 4QFJ12345678
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Stormy Eyes wrote: | so what's Stallman's beef? |
He's tormented by the knowledge that someone, somewhere is writing non-GPL software. |
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Liquid n00b


Joined: 18 Nov 2003 Posts: 59
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Richard Stallman's thoughts on Gentoo |
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pjp wrote: | I didn't know we were trying. RMS can keep is unreasonable ideals to himself, and the software he develops. Thanks. |
Why so aggressive with RMS? |
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moocha Watchman

Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 5722
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Richard Stallman's thoughts on Gentoo |
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Liquid wrote: | pjp wrote: | I didn't know we were trying. RMS can keep is unreasonable ideals to himself, and the software he develops. Thanks. |
Why so aggressive with RMS? |
Reflecting in kind
Fanaticism tends to make people suspicious of one's motives. _________________ Military Commissions Act of 2006: http://tinyurl.com/jrcto
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- attributed to Benjamin Franklin |
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