Problems at Gentoo Discussion

[vonr]

[Slalomsk8er]

Thank you for your posts here. Like I hoped there are some overlaps like the one about the devs leaving faster then joining and the one about to few new devs joining, which will help me in compiling a better node in the Wiki about the devs.

@jonnevers:
and where is your fix I have not the time to volunteer as a trustee nor do I have the knowledge that I suppose is needed about the USA legal system. If I had both or both items are not that big as I believe they are then I would not write al this here but would nominate my self for the next voting of trustees.

I hope it is not just boosting my ego if I try to document the bigger problems Gentoo is facing but will help in fixing them easier for the ones that can do it.

Keep em coming there must be more because I don't think we are lucky enough that this are our only problems
_________________
GNU/Linux user #383872

[ps]

[Carlo]

[01mf02]

Most of you will agree that the problem with Gentoo is the perceived lack of progress! Many people posted about
- the GWN that is not a WN anymore at all,
- the never-changing layout on the Gentoo.org frontpage,
- the non-existance of a release greater that 2007.0 etc.

Things have somehow stopped to move! Of course, e.g. the Portage tree is very active, but the aforementioned areas definitely require some love.

So would a "dictator" like Drobbins change things better than they could be changed without him?

We had a working Gentoo infrastructure for some years without Drobbins now, and just recently serious problems seemed to appear (maybe it's a bit hyped now, but problems definitely exist). Don't you believe the conditions demanded by Drobbins can be a serious threat to the current system?

The discussion that's going on currently is a good sign because there is a will to change in the community. Problem: Nothing seems to change despite this, which is why people are calling for a dictator!

What do you think about some kind of "getting the job done" taskforce with about 5 people that could enforce quick measures? These people should be easily contactable, probably elected, and be very present in the community, something the User Representatives unfortunately never have achieved AFAIK.

[ps]

This is amazing!
My gentoo box is barely 2 weeks old.
In fact I haven't even finished installing and configuring it yet, and already I'm starting to feel like an unwelcome intruder.
I lost count how many times I've been told to shut up in just the past 2 days!
Amazing.

respectfully,
_________________
ps
Looking forward -->

[Nerdanel]

There appears to be only one trustee left. Daniel Robbins wrote that only Grant Goodyear and Chris Gianelloni were left, and Chris Gianelloni has resigned since (quoted on the wiki). The most recent activity by Grant Goodyear that I was able to find with Google was a contradance event last November and before that a blog post from last September that had nothing to do with Gentoo or computers.

Problem:

Gentoo Store sells woefully out-of-date versions of Gentoo - 2006.1 and 2006.0!

Why this problem exists:

Nobody has updated the store since 2006. The reasons are unclear but a general lack of leadership seems to be behind it.

Proposed solution:

- Update the store to sell 2007.0. Include updating the store in the to-do list whenever a new version comes out. Make sure that the to-do list is enforced.

- Remove CDs from the Gentoo Store.

- Remove the entire Gentoo Store.

[bmichaelsen]

[Old School]

To those that think this will just blow over, and those that think it is just a recent problem, my take is this is something that has been slowly growing for the past year and half to two years. Unless measures are taken, it will achieve a critical mass. Gentoo needs a unified approach, something that, imo, has been sorely lacking.
_________________
www.otw20.com

The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
George Orwell

[Nerdanel]

Note once again that the Gentoo Store hasn't been updated since 2006 The problems are not recent at all, in the past things merely hadn't had the time to deteriorate as badly as they are now.

By the way, take a look at the (ex-)trustee Paul de Vrieze's blog. The most recent comment (from March 2007) has this quote about Gentoo:

[NeddySeagoon]

01mf02,

Things can certainly change without drobbins. I will go so far as to speculate that drobbins infamous blog post was prompted because someone was asking questions and trying to change things and the blog was the result.

The problem with a dictator is to whom will he dictate?
Manging a large volunteer group takes tact and diplomacy, since the volunteers do when they do for fun.
As soon as the dictator removes the fun element, even accidently, the volunteers will just melt away.



ps,

Welcome to Gentoo.
When you engage in passonate speculative disscussions based on very few facts, predudicies soon emerge.
When that happens, the temperature rises and some individuals resort to personal attacks rather than reasoned discussion.
Life is like that the world over, not just within Gentoo. After all, Gentoo is a microcosm of the world outside.
Accept it and shrug it off or avoid these debates.
The mods and admins do try to curb the worst excesses. Feel free to point out instances we miss with a post here
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

[Slalomsk8er]

[ps]

NeddySeagoon

Thanks, I appreciate your welcome and advice.

I don't take things personally - at least try not.
I think that all this back and forth stuff is good and healthy - even if it gets a little edgy at times.
I am having lots of fun here.
I think you all are great.

Best wishes.
_________________
ps
Looking forward -->

[ps]

Ok, thanks everybody, I'm feeling welcome again.
_________________
ps
Looking forward -->

[Slalomsk8er]

[Nerdanel]

It appears that the paperwork was for 501(c)(6) status. (Unfortunately the board cannot handle a link with () in it...)

"Gentoo is not a 501(c)(3) organization but is applying for 501(c)(6) status instead"
- http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/userrel/adopt-a-dev/

"...resolve the legal issues, namely our 501(c)(6) application and copyright assignment stuff; ..."
- http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/all/2006/10/06/

Mod Edit: It might not be able to handle parentheses, but it's fine if you give it %28 and %29 instead. --Maedhros

[Beetle B.]

Symptom: Too many ebuilds marked unstable, or no ebuilds at all.

Somehow, Gentoo got behind on providing ebuilds. I've seen cases of fairly popular packages having their latest versions marked ~x86 even though a year has passed since their releases.

Worse, a number of fairly popular packages (or their latest versions) aren't even in Portage - not even masked or keyworded. Again, this is often months (if not over a year) after they've been released.

I really wish I had concrete examples to give you, but haven't been noting them down.

When I installed Gentoo back in 2003, it was known for providing ebuilds very soon after a package's latest release. If you couldn't wait, you just put it in package.keywords (OK - that system wasn't available then - but regardless, you could install it). For me, it's scary how often over the past year I've had to go to an overlay to get a much desired package.

Problem: I don't know. I'm hoping someone here can tell me. I've thought of a number of possibilities:

1. Fewer (or the same number of) devs available to provide stable ebuilds.
2. Linux has really grown since 2003, and it's hard to keep up with all the packages out there.
3. Something else (you tell me).

Option 2 scares me if true. Most of the complaints have been on issues involving organization, the Foundation, etc. This would be a tough technical issue to handle. Will Gentoo at one point just provide ebuilds for the basic packages and leave everything else to overlays?

It would be really nice if the devs can explain the lack of ebuilds. I don't mean this to be a complaint, and nor am I considering leaving Gentoo. It may have lagged behind on providing packages, but it still excels in other things - it's a darn good system.

Solution: Hard to say without knowing the actual problem...
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Beetle B.

Please update the table of equivalents.
A Firefox guide.

[NeddySeagoon]

Beetle B,

The concept and reputation of overlays has changed over recent years. They have become more respectable. (Thats not the right word but it will do)

Many herds to their development work in overlays with the result that packages get added to the tree and go to ~arch without being hard masked for development.
I see this as mixed blessing. On the positive side, it makes it easier for users to participate in testing. No more put the ebuild into your own overlay and keyword it. Just fetch the overlay with layman and use it like a part of the portage tree.
On the downside, testing packages take longer to reach the 'official' tree.

Its just a different, possibly more flexible way of working.

I'm sure you can find some examples of what you cite by looking at bugs assigned to maintainer-wanted in bugzilla be the reason is self explainatory there.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

[kernelOfTruth]

Problem: even PR isn't able to get out a message on the current status anymore
Why the problem exists:dunno, perhaps too much people resigned, are too busy; whatever
Proposed solution: PR people doing some voluntary stuff (no development/programming !), that at least the broader masses get a status-report on internal affairs - communication starts to flow by baby-steps again

see: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205554
_________________
https://github.com/kernelOfTruth/ZFS-for-SystemRescueCD/tree/ZFS-for-SysRescCD-4.9.0
https://github.com/kernelOfTruth/pulseaudio-equalizer-ladspa

Hardcore Gentoo Linux user since 2004

[AllenJB]

[bmichaelsen]

[bmichaelsen]

http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/msg_01257.xml <- interesting read (whole thread)

[dilbot]

As a user with a small company using Gentoo as the backbone OS, I've been pleased by the overall Gentoo approach. I've tried most of the other major distros and Gentoo has always come out as the best choice. I am reluctant at this point to switch distros, so I can only hope that we get over this bump.

I'm not sure that bringing back Daniel Robbins is a be-all/end-all solution to what has become a complex problem. If he were to come back with a collegiate attitude to boost morale, that would be great. But coming in with an "I'll bust heads" approach won't work on a volunteer group where good devs are always running close to the burning-out point.

But who knows. Maybe get him to come back, give him three months or six months to do it his way, and see what the results are. Since he started Gentoo and has offered to jump in, it's probably appropriate that he's at least given the chance.

Daniel - if you're reading this - please remember that the devs you disagree with the most are still people who are honestly interested in moving Gentoo forward - even if it's not "forward" in the sense that you expect. The challenge of good management is to convince rather than coerce. You'll get a lot more recognition for a job well done if you keep the road kill count to a minimum.

[Slalomsk8er]

[ps]