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Shall gay marriage be legal?
YES, and I AM a christian
19%
 19%  [ 250 ]
NO, and I AM a christian
15%
 15%  [ 192 ]
YES, and I AIN'T a christian
53%
 53%  [ 681 ]
NO, and I AIN'T a christian
11%
 11%  [ 151 ]
Total Votes : 1274

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carbon
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:41 pm    Post subject: Shall gay marriage be legal? Reply with quote

Shall gay marriage be legal?
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neenee
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is legal where i am (flat, flat holland) and i have
no problems with it whatsoever; i have friends
who are gay as well. good people, some even
use linux.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course it should.
I've never understood why some people think they need to live other peoples lives and tell them what to do.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think homosexuals should marry, because their relationships don't resemble 'normal' marriages. It is not my intention to say that their attachments are worth less, but it would IMO somehow depreciate the credit of regular marriages.
However, they should have the possibility to be accredited by the state as cohabits (maybe I'm lacking the knowledge of this language - can't think of a better term right now), because this would reduce legal problems (I'm talking about situations in which one can't visit his partner in hospital because he does not officialy belong to the family or other situations in which relatives are needed).
But at the moment gays can marry in church I'm going to stop paying taxes for this institution, because I think this would be absolutely ridiculous.

Include mandatory I know heaps of gays and I like them note here.
It's also noteworthy that I used to live in an area which can be described as a hotspot for the gay community (rainbow flags everywhere) for 20 years. So it's not like I've heard about gay people, but have never had contact to one... I met gay people every day and never had any problems with them (they're usually really polite)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw: Does it really matter to be a christian... If so, could you include hindus and muslems as well ("es, and I AM a muslem")
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neenee wrote:
it is legal where i am (flat, flat holland) and i have
no problems with it whatsoever; i have friends
who are gay as well. good people, some even
use linux.


Is it true that Holland is the only country in the world where actual marriage is legal? Here in Sweden, which likes to think of itself as a modern, progressive society only 'registered partnership' is legal.

@ nerdbert:

Could you clarify why gay marriage in a church would be so ridiculous?
Sure, the Bible has quite a few passages that seem to be written by clearly homophobic persons, but there's a lot of other stuff that isn't heeded by your average christian.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am not sure about that niklash, but it might
well be possible. for such a small country as
holland, we seem to have some interesting
differences.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nerdbert wrote:
btw: Does it really matter to be a christian... If so, could you include hindus and muslems as well ("es, and I AM a muslem")

Hindu religions and islam don't have nearly the overwhelming opposition to gay marriage that many christians have, in this country at least.

And yes, screw you closed minded bastards that think a gay relationship is somehow inferior to a heterosexual relationship.

<--homosexual marriage supporter

nerdbert wrote:

But at the moment gays can marry in church I'm going to stop paying taxes for this institution, because I think this would be absolutely ridiculous.

A. You can't stop paying taxes for a church, if you could, it would be called a donation - not a tax.
B. Since when did the church have anything to do with something being legal or not? It should have nothing to do with it; let homosexuals get married by a judge or something....
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NiklasH wrote:
neenee wrote:
it is legal where i am (flat, flat holland) and i have
no problems with it whatsoever; i have friends
who are gay as well. good people, some even
use linux.


Is it true that Holland is the only country in the world where actual marriage is legal? Here in Sweden, which likes to think of itself as a modern, progressive society only 'registered partnership' is legal.

@ nerdbert:

Could you clarify why gay marriage in a church would be so ridiculous?
Sure, the Bible has quite a few passages that seem to be written by clearly homophobic persons, but there's a lot of other stuff that isn't heeded by your average christian.


Nope, it has been legal in Norway for the past 10 years or so.

I totally for their right to be married, in fact I think a gay marriage has a greater chance than a so called "normal" marriage to succeed.

Unfortunatly there are still people who think the bible is the only corretc law boiok on this planet and that we all, whether we like it or not, should live by it. It just makes me steam with anger when I hear one of those Christian zealots talk about gay's and their rights. They have no idea what they are talking about and they are more "blind" than any blind person I have ever met!

Nuff rantings :)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebrostig wrote:
Nope, it has been legal in Norway for the past 10 years or so.

I totally for their right to be married, in fact I think a gay marriage has a greater chance than a so called "normal" marriage to succeed.



I had no idea about that! I have gotten the picture that Norway is a bit less tolerant than Sweden towards gays (in general, of course). Seems like I was a bit prejudiced 8O
Quote:

Unfortunatly there are still people who think the bible is the only corretc law boiok on this planet and that we all, whether we like it or not, should live by it. It just makes me steam with anger when I hear one of those Christian zealots talk about gay's and their rights. They have no idea what they are talking about and they are more "blind" than any blind person I have ever met!

Amen to that. :wink:
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont see anything wrong with gay marriages. they are consenting adults. there is nothing illegal about it. people do worse things every day.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i votet it shout be legal. i'm a punk and therefore i'm tollerant.

i belive it is someones own opinion and own fealing to be gay or not. but "gay-love" is love in the same sense as the hetero-love is......
so i see nothing wrong about it,...

and for all the people saying it is not natural or not normal..... think about what makes you different and think about how you would feal if you were discriminated.

and in my opinion, giving someone not the same rights, just because he is gay, is just discremination humans who are not like you......
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nerdbert wrote:
However, they should have the possibility to be accredited by the state as cohabits (maybe I'm lacking the knowledge of this language - can't think of a better term right now), because this would reduce legal problems (I'm talking about situations in which one can't visit his partner in hospital because he does not officialy belong to the family or other situations in which relatives are needed).


Well, that's what is being proposed, legalized marriage(with the same financial benefits and so on) for homosexuals, nothing more. I think(don't quote me on this) in Canada its called 'civil union' or something like that if its not condoned by a church.

Quote:
But at the moment gays can marry in church I'm going to stop paying taxes for this institution, because I think this would be absolutely ridiculous.


Well, that's a separate issue, and as has already been mentioned, churches do not collect taxes(at least in the US). Churches will not be required to do weddings for homosexuals, its about equal legal rights for people who happen to be of a different sexual orientation.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NiklasH wrote:
Is it true that Holland is the only country in the world where actual marriage is legal? Here in Sweden, which likes to think of itself as a modern, progressive society only 'registered partnership' is legal.

like ebrostig said, it is also legal in Norway and I must add that it is also legal in some parts of Germany.
NiklasH wrote:

Could you clarify why gay marriage in a church would be so ridiculous?

because marriage (as an institution) wasn't meant to be a game called 'who likes whom?'. I think it used to be the foundation of a family. Things are different nowadays, but I still believe that there is something right about it.
There also is a group of gays which make fun out of 'hetero' society by imitating their lifestyle. They claim the right of marrying in church and adopting children like any other couple can do (they also like to imitate females in an exaggerated, dismissive manner). I don't like to be grown up by a couple which just thought it would be a funny idea to do this.
But I don't worry, because I'm quite sure that such things won't happen in the near future.
But I also think that gays should have the right to make their relationship official to the state. IMO "registered partnership" is a good term for this.

NuclearFusi0n wrote:

Hindu religions and islam don't have nearly the overwhelming opposition to gay marriage that many christians have, in this country at least.

Ok, go to the next Imam you can find and tell him that you want to marry a guy, I doubt that he'll be overjoyed. I'm not too familiar with the principles of most religions, but I doubt that any gay stronghold (except Tel Aviv) is located outside of the christian world. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

NuclearFusi0n wrote:

A. You can't stop paying taxes for a church, if you could, it would be called a donation - not a tax.
B. Since when did the church have anything to do with something being legal or not? It should have nothing to do with it; let homosexuals get married by a judge or something....

A: This is an extravagance of German tax law... the state collects the church's tax (if you belong to a major one). In other countries I could as well say that I stop paying them and stop going there - this has the same meaning over here.
B: This is exactly what I'm saying. A judge or a notary should do this, but please don't call it a marriage. The term of marriage is the only thing on which I don't agree.
You should also keep in mind that the church used to be the only institution allowing you to marry. The involvement of any state was a product of the enlightenment later on. The people wanted their nation to acknowledge their relationship officially. I think that gays have the same right, but I don't think that this should lead into a equality of status for any reason.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, it's my personal opinion that homosexual is immoral and wrong, and whether you are religious or not it goes against the incredibly obvious fact that men were not designed to have sex with other men. That being said, I'm not for total control of people's lives. I don't really have a problem with gay unions that give men entitlements to certain tax benefits and things that married couples enjoy (as long as it is monogamous). However, it's not marriage by any means. You can't take the religion out of marriage because marriage is a religious institution. Therefore homosexuals can't really be married, even if in their head they think they might be. I realize that atheists get married too so that defeats this logic, but homosexuality goes against common sense and nature.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zephyr1256 wrote:
nerdbert wrote:
However, they should have the possibility to be accredited by the state as cohabits (maybe I'm lacking the knowledge of this language - can't think of a better term right now), because this would reduce legal problems (I'm talking about situations in which one can't visit his partner in hospital because he does not officialy belong to the family or other situations in which relatives are needed).


Well, that's what is being proposed, legalized marriage(with the same financial benefits and so on) for homosexuals, nothing more. I think(don't quote me on this) in Canada its called 'civil union' or something like that if its not condoned by a church.

ok, no qoutes about 'civil union' (interesting term however). Married couples pay less taxes over here - I don't see a point which justifies this, so I don't see a point in allowing gay couples to pay less. However, If 'hetero' couples without any kids pay less why don't we give the same right to gay couples? Equal (dumb) rights to anyone!
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nerdbert wrote:
ok, no qoutes about 'civil union' (interesting term however). Married couples pay less taxes over here - I don't see a point which justifies this, so I don't see a point in allowing gay couples to pay less. However, If 'hetero' couples without any kids pay less why don't we give the same right to gay couples? Equal (dumb) rights to anyone!


Here in the States, we actually have what's known as a 'marriage penalty'. If a married couple files jointly on their taxes they pay more tax than they would if they filed separately. So it's actually a backwards situation. They do get discounts for dependents though.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paranode: over here being married is subsidized - I know people who are still married just because of this tax system.

btw: have you paid attention to the S&D case recently (topic gay parades)?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paranode wrote:
First off, it's my personal opinion that homosexual is immoral and wrong, and whether you are religious or not it goes against the incredibly obvious fact that men were not designed to have sex with other men.

It is not obvious, because many people do not believe men were designed at all. How is it immoral? What harm does it do? Does it hurt God, because they are not doing what he wants them to do? Then why is homosexuality so common among both humans and animals. Is God an incompetent designer?
Also, do you think women having sex with women is ok?

paranode wrote:
You can't take the religion out of marriage because marriage is a religious institution.

A marriage is a promise people make to love and care for each other. Not all people need to be threatened with the flames of hell in order to keep their words.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neenee wrote:
it is legal where i am (flat, flat holland) and i have
no problems with it whatsoever; i have friends
who are gay as well. good people, some even
use linux.


Ahh well that makes it ok then.. :-D As long as the use linux they can do whatever they wat :lol:


No really.. I couldn't give a shit what other poeple do.. its got nothing to do with me..
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paranode wrote:
fact that men were not designed to have sex with other men.


Marriage is not only about sex, is a commitment between 2 individuals.
plus having sex does not mean a sperm gets to an ovum. Thats called fertilization.

paranode wrote:
You can't take the religion out of marriage because marriage is a religious institution


No it is not. People get marry way before religion exist. We chinese had been getting married way before christianality exists.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel there should be a "who gives a crap" option . I mean does it really matter who marries who I thought it was about love and such and from what I've seen the gays and lesbians seem to love each other more than hetero couples. The only reason its not legal in alot of the world is because of religion and this crap morality they keep trying to feed down our throats , while behind the pews their screwing our children . Who are they to teach us about morality ? Now lets forget about religion, where does the government get the right to tell its citizens who they can and can't screw what do they care? their job is to steal our money that we work hard, and they do it whether one is gay or not . In my opinion the government or the church have absoulutely no right telling people what the can and cannot do . Then again gay people can't produce children and if they can't make more taxpayers or church goers I can see there point in not wanting to allows same sex unions because the purpose of marriage was strictly for procreation at one point in time and not for just fun and company .
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not? Might as well make more of a joke out of the institution... And yes, God is an incompetent designer, if he were competent we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't care if people are homo or hetero, should all people love the color blue because I do?

We must not get confused between civil marriage and religious marriage. In France they are totally independent, then can marry at the city hall and never step a foot in a church. Homosexual marriage isn't allowed yet because 90% of the population is catholic (and even if we don't go to the mass anymore, we have a Huge cultural background), but mentalities change and I think it's just a matter of time before things change.

If your religion says being homosexual is Evil, then... pray for not being Evil and leave them be. I've been told for my whole childhood at catechsim that the message of Jesus was a message of love. So what's the big deal if it's two guys or two girls instead of one guy and one girl?

For the adoption stuff, there's no reason why homo people would do worse than hetero. If they adopt a child, they wanted him, so they'll love him. Can you tell me how many children are miserable because their parents didn't want them but religion forbid them abortion? The only negative point I see is that kids could be mocked at in the schoolyard because their parents aren't "normal" (no, kids ain't angels, and if their parents aren't tolerant, they won't be themselves).

I think some people have prejudices, but they never really took the time to think about it. I still have some prejudices, but I know that they are, and I'm trying to get rid of them.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paranode wrote:
First off, it's my personal opinion that homosexual is immoral and wrong, and whether you are religious or not it goes against the incredibly obvious fact that men were not designed to have sex with other men. That being said, I'm not for total control of people's lives. I don't really have a problem with gay unions that give men entitlements to certain tax benefits and things that married couples enjoy (as long as it is monogamous). However, it's not marriage by any means. You can't take the religion out of marriage because marriage is a religious institution. Therefore homosexuals can't really be married, even if in their head they think they might be. I realize that atheists get married too so that defeats this logic, but homosexuality goes against common sense and nature.


How is it obvious? I'm bisexual. It's not obvious to me. To be perfectly frank, men turn me on - are you suggesting that I'm not actually interested in men? How can it _not_ be natural if I feel it?

Why is marriage necessarily a religious institution except within your personal belief structure? What dictionary are you using that states that marriage is strictly religious? Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, marriage is a legal position and nothing more. For other people, it's a spiritual connection to someone else. I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't think of it as a spiritual connection; why shouldn't I think of it as simply a legal contract?

Why does it go against common sense and nature? It's easy to throw those terms around, but can you tell me _why_ exactly? Sure, there's no procreation involved - do you think of sex as merely procreation rather than a way of expressing love for someone through mutual pleasure?

The main issue I have with debating gay marriage with people is nobody can put any _substance_ behind their arguments beyond "I think it's unnatural!" - whereas I'd say that anything I'm capable of feeling is perfectly natural; how could it be anything else?
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