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diseaser
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2002 5:43 pm    Post subject: vim on boot cd Reply with quote

For those of us who have graduated from nano/pico :)
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, but as someone else mentioned to me, but then do we then need to include emacs too?

I think nano is probably much smaller and less dependent then vim. It is annoying, I would like to see it happen, but I don't know if it will.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2002 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

why not just vi?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:33 pm    Post subject: vi Reply with quote

Quote:
why not just vi?


There is no real vi anymore. Though you could build vim (and other clones I'm sure) with very limited functionality for the sake of size...

In reality I think the reasoning is that there is no real need for vi on the install disk. Disk space really isnt a problem, but why add extra software that you dont really need when your (in theory) only going to be using the install-disk programs for a few edits? Granted, some of those edits could go alot quicker with a vi (or Emacs if thats your bag) but were only talking about a few seconds here......

I dont know, I understand your desire for your vi, but there are about a million things more important than that right now.

:-)

-T
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the oldest discussion in the world, but I have to ask. Could someone tell me what the advantages of vi/vim really are? As a former Windows user I really like the way editors like nano and Nedit work. I guess I've just grown acustomed to moving around with the arrow keys and actually inserting a letter when I press a key. I really can't figure out how having two different modes can make things faster. Please enlighten me.

I was under the impression that vi is a "left over" from when terminals couldn't handle the arrow keys and other extended keys. Things have evolved since then. It's a bit like the qwerty vs. dvorak discussion. Isn't it time we all switched to dvorak?

I don't mind adding vim to the default gentoo install. I just wanted to hear your opinion on this matter. The fact that gentoo comes with nano as the default editor makes me very happy though. It allows even old Windows users like me to edit files without learing a totally different way of editing.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:45 am    Post subject: vi Reply with quote

If you have been using other unixes that Linux you will sometimes have a situation where no other editor than vi is available. If you are a Unix network administrator you will quite often experience this. As long as the big Unixes does not provide any other editor in the basic installation you will have to deal with people asking for vi.

So I say "add it and get on with it !"
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2002 4:47 pm    Post subject: vi , nano etc Reply with quote

My impression is that the purpose of Gentoo is to bootstrap with only what is essential and then make your own distribution. I think nano is ideal in this context, it is small, any fool can use it, (for all its virtues vi is not intuitive, and never will be for new users), and it is more that adequate to edit the necessary config files. So, I say stick to nano and leave the choice of full-time editor up to the user.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kennel wrote:
This is the oldest discussion in the world, but I have to ask. Could someone tell me what the advantages of vi/vim really are? As a former Windows user I really like the way editors like nano and Nedit work. I guess I've just grown acustomed to moving around with the arrow keys and actually inserting a letter when I press a key. I really can't figure out how having two different modes can make things faster. Please enlighten me.

I was under the impression that vi is a "left over" from when terminals couldn't handle the arrow keys and other extended keys. Things have evolved since then. It's a bit like the qwerty vs. dvorak discussion. Isn't it time we all switched to dvorak?

I don't mind adding vim to the default gentoo install. I just wanted to hear your opinion on this matter. The fact that gentoo comes with nano as the default editor makes me very happy though. It allows even old Windows users like me to edit files without learing a totally different way of editing.


There are many reasons people love thier vi clones (vim being the most popluar and my weapon of choice). The short answer is "power". There is very little that vim cant do if you want it to, the same goes for Emacs....they are easily scriptable (vim has its own mini-language for scripting, Emacs uses a form of scheme) and I have yet to find (though I'm not looking hard) any other editors that come close to the functionality of vim or emacs.

Problems: steep lerning curve (and vim's multi-mode interface has been the bane of many a newb).

Solution: once you do learn it, you will be able to do twice as much in half the time...

So, thats the short-and-not-overly-informative answer.

-T
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2002 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tvon wrote:
There are many reasons people love thier vi clones (vim being the most popluar and my weapon of choice). The short answer is "power". There is very little that vim cant do if you want it to, the same goes for Emacs....they are easily scriptable (vim has its own mini-language for scripting, Emacs uses a form of scheme) and I have yet to find (though I'm not looking hard) any other editors that come close to the functionality of vim or emacs.

Problems: steep lerning curve (and vim's multi-mode interface has been the bane of many a newb).

Solution: once you do learn it, you will be able to do twice as much in half the time...

So, thats the short-and-not-overly-informative answer.

-T

Ok. I can understand that people like it because of the advanced scripting abilities and the fact that it is therefore more than just a simple text editor. What I still don't understand is how the "multi-mode interface" makes things faster. The way I see it this interface requires more keystrokes when performing standard editing.

I'm a registered user of the Windows editor UltraEdit and although I look every day, I can't seem to find anything I don't like about it. It has loads of advanced features without being bloated in any way (scripting, FTP, advanced search and replace, HEX-editing, etc. etc.). I find it curious that virtually no serious Windows developers use a Windows editor with vi-style interface. I get the impression that using vi, or a clone thereof, is something you "have to do" in order to be a true hardcore unix user. You will probably flame me for this, but until I can see some really good arguments as to why the vi-style interface is superior, I'm sticking with the "standard way" of moving around and editing text.

Btw, isn't emacs even more powerful when it comes to scripting and extending the functionality of the editor? I hear people use it to read mail and lots of other stuff. I don't know why anyone would want to read their mail in a console based text editor, but still.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2002 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kennel wrote:
The way I see it this interface requires more keystrokes when performing standard editing.


Well when I first installed Linux (not gentoo) and only knew there was an editor called vi, I pressed the reset button to get out :)

After that I used pico. It was great because you had the basic commands right there without the need of any manpage or anything. Then some time I read a tutorial on vi and since then I'm using vi(m) for everything. I actually prefer vim to pure vi but you can even get it done with vi.

Kennel wrote:
I'm a registered user of the Windows editor UltraEdit. I find it curious that virtually no serious Windows developers use a Windows editor with vi-style interface. I get the impression that using vi, or a clone thereof, is something you "have to do" in order to be a true hardcore unix user. You will probably flame me for this, but until I can see some really good arguments as to why the vi-style interface is superior, I'm sticking with the "standard way" of moving around and editing text.

I hear people use it to read mail and lots of other stuff. I don't know why anyone would want to read their mail in a console based text editor, but still.


I don't program in Windows but VIM for Windows has the ability to substitute the MS Visual C Editor (from what I've read).

As you might know by now, I even use VIM in Windows (when I'm in it). I'm just quite used to vi. You can even see some :wq etc. when I'm in another Editor after having used vi for some time :) I don't know why but I just like how it works and I wouldn't call me a hardcore unix guy (though I might like to become one :)) And some of them even like to boot emacs to use some editor ...

I actually like KMail quite a lot. I'd not say "no" to a vi composer for KMail either :)

Just try a vi clone (for cursor keys and other goodies :)) you have to see it for yourself and if you don't like it, don't use it but some do like it (not only because they need to "like" it because of some old $UNIX running in the corner :)) I wouldn't have to use a pure old vi either ...
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2002 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kennel wrote:
Ok. I can understand that people like it because of the advanced scripting abilities and the fact that it is therefore more than just a simple text editor. What I still don't understand is how the "multi-mode interface" makes things faster. The way I see it this interface requires more keystrokes when performing standard editing.
The way I see it, with vi, you don't have to move your fingers away from the "regular" keys except ESC. When I do coding, I hardly move my wrists, nor do I reach for the mouse. It is a BIG advantage. You won't realize unless you have an experience with it. As you said, vi may require a few more keystrokes, but to me, it's much better than moving my hand(which was comfortably resting on the pad) away from the keyboard in order to grab a mouse.

You mentioned "multi-mode" is confusing. In some sense, it's true. But it's more like one inner-mode and one outer-mode, rather than 2 "equally leveled" ones (If it was, that would be really confusing, because you'd have to constantly think which mode you are in). Once you press ESC, you are in outer-mode(command mode), and after then you stay in that mode no matter how many times you press ESCs.

You also questioned if vi is that good why people on windows do not use vi-clones. I think it's because xterm-like tools are not useful on windows. Sure, we have CMD.exe, but but do you type "UltraEdit" in C:> prompt to run your editor? That's not going to work in general unless you put every single dirs in "Program Files" directory in your search path.
On Unix, you usually keep at least one xterm open, and it is likely that you are frequently executing some command on command-line. Therefore, booting vi can't be easier, meaning xterm is on focus, or a couple of Alt-TABs away.

Having said that, you are correct that vi is relatively hard to learn. Even some emacs people hate the interface. :)
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2002 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vi, besides having to press "i" for insert mode, isn't a huge deal anymore. You can use the arrow keys, delete and backspace, home, end... so who cares? I say through it in for one good reason:

In the spirit of what someone told me about using a lot a aliases...

If you customize the system too much you'll be crippled on other systems. Every system has vi, and not every system has an alias for rm='rm -v -i', so learn it right to be safe. Same goes for vi, use that so you aren't at a loss at work on a solaris box, etc...
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2002 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm quite allergic to arrow keys. Plus, they're way over there --->

I need vi to be fast enough so that I don't go bugfuck. When I started to try to edit things on the gentoo install, I had to immediately change course to get the locate database going -- and was incredulous when there was no vi to be found.

That said, how do you delete a paragraph in nano? (Ok, I haven't even rtfm'd -- I just got here -- I've got "emerge kde" brewing out in the backyard.) In vi, I'm three single keys -- no ninja control-combos -- away from deleting the paragraph after my cursor. And then I move to the next place and plop down two copies of it in two keys. I can do multiple paragraphs (characters, words, ...) with just one extra keystroke -- with the keys right under my fingers -- not some "right-wing" keys paid for, certainly, by "the man". Ok, I thinking I'm getting off track again.

vi's cool. If there's a small, easy version of it, and plenty of space on the disk/image, then I'm sure someone can automate making it happen.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actualy, the one thing that annoyed me during the install was trying to remember the name of the damn text editor. No matter how many times I typed "vi /etc/fstab" the damn thing just wouldn't do it ;) My solution was to alias vi=nano :)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if im wrong but doesnt the install CD use busybox?? "vi" is one the the apps busybox can emulate. Just remove # before vi before compile and its all set. HINT, HINT developers.

No "vi" is the only real bitch i have about the installation. Come on I thought that "Gentoo Linux is a versatile and fast, completely free Linux distribution for x86 and PowerPC that's geared towards EXPERIENCED Linux users." And the only editor is a pico clone??

Any how nice job on everything else i have checked out so far.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll just toss in my opinion here...

I think it's a huge oversight to leave 'vi' (or nvi or vim or elvis or some other clone) out of the installer simply because this distro is obviously aimed for users who want control and have at least some experience. Not that it's unsuitable for newbie users, obviously, since the community so far has been amazingly helpful to everyone new to it (since all of us are new to it). But... seriously, if you're going to have any form of an advanced Linux distribution, you really should include 'vi'. I'll make my own set of vi-enabled ISOs if someone doesn't take care of this soon. (That includes PPC ISOs, since I'm only using Gentoo/PPC at the moment.)

(update)
I've set up an account for myself over at bugs.gentoo.org and added a bug in for this. We'll see how the developers react to it. :) (bug #2098, for anyone interested.)

-clee
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really, you can add what ever you like to the installation CD (emacs,vim, and even mkisofs,cdrecord). Just take the rescue.gz inside the disk, unzip, and mount it to any folder using loopback device (in your Linux system).
Add any utility you like to it plus any dependent libraries (by checking the file using "ldd". E.g ldd cdrecord).
Unmount it (you have a new "rescue" file now), and gzip to make rescue.gz.
Last step is to recreate the ISO installation image with the new rescue.gz in it (using isolinux, mkisofs).
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that many of you fail to realize that you DO NOT NEED an editor with many features during the install process. Nor do you need a desktop enviornment. Which is why neither are included. Nano was included because it's fast, simple, and easy to use; it's also light weight. Why waste bandwidth including vim/emacs on the install when it's not even needed? Do you really need emacs to make a few minor changes to some text files during the _installation_? If you have a problem with nano, remove it after the install. There is a reason that it's included and emacs/vi are not.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most of us were less than serious.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2002 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vlad: That's easy for you to say.

Personally I am allergic to all editors other than vi clones - my documents come out in blotches, with ':wq', 'dd' and the like everywhere.

Seriously though, for the for kb nvi takes up I really think it should be included..
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nitro wrote:
I agree, but as someone else mentioned to me, but then do we then need to include emacs too?

I think nano is probably much smaller and less dependent then vim. It is annoying, I would like to see it happen, but I don't know if it will.

It's easy to reply. Emacs is lots of bigger more more complex as vi[m] and nano. I know there's a war between emacs and vim but you should really know that vim is really the more light version (it's smaller, faster, and no cow wich can do everything)

Regards,
Christian Parpart.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so you locked the thread in favor of an older - here's my reply to your points in the locked thread:

Quote:
No, apparently Gentoo is a distro geared towards letting the user choose. For some strange reason, they want to let users select what apps get dumped on their system. That's why there's no logging system, cron package or MTA by default. (though installing a logger, of your choice, is part of the install process)


And I like all of those things. However, an editor is neccesary in even the most basic system, and an editor is supplied. My argument is that if you're only putting in one editor, it should be a vi variant, not a pico variant.


Quote:
Also, your use of the term, "fully loaded base system" is a misnomer. A base gentoo install does not make for a fully-functional linux server. It simply offers the bare minimum components required across 99% of the installs out there. It's up to the sysadmin to install more apps from there to make the system useful. (and tailored to their needs)


Yup, but again, see above. Especially consider some users (myself included) had to spend a couple days int he iso-booted environment over the course of a few install attempts, doing lots of script hacking, editors are fairly important.

Quote:
Which vi? I prefer vim, others prefer elvis, ex or even the original vi. Are you going to dictate what version I should have on my system?


As a vi user, certainly you'll appreciate that *any* vi, even lowly ex or original vi, would be perfectly acceptable for the iso image and/or base install. As above, they can add/remove editors at will once they get to that point.

Quote:
Quote:
ph317 wrote:
All other editors (especially ones like pico, joe, jed, NANO) are a joke. They're for writing documents and email perhaps, but not for editing source code and strictly-formatted configuration files.


That's your opinion, certainly. Other people like pico, joe, jed and yes, even NANO.


It's not just *my* opinion. As far as *nix people go, across all the available OS's and platforms, the vi/ex/ed line is the standard editor one can expect everywhere. And it's not just an arbitrary standard. vi's comittment to not messing up touchy syntax with random line breaks, etc is a big factor in that choice. On a production machine, I would never touch a sensitive config file with anything less. These are big points for a Gentoo install, but they contribute to the fact that a whole lot of unix people are most comfortable in vi.

Quote:
Quote:
ph317 wrote:
To me (and I'm sure many others) a functional "vi" (or least ex, or even ed) is as integral to a functional *nix commandline setup as ls, rm, cp, mv, etc....


OK, but "to me" is a key phrase. Not everyone agrees with you, so what's the problem with giving the user a choice? If they want vi, it's one emerge command away (segfaults notwithstanding) If they prefer vim, they can have that, too. And if, god forbid, they just want plain old nano, well they don't have to install anything.


Again, you say you're giving the user a choice - but back at the start in the iso image, you don't have a choice, you're forced to use nano. If you're gonna force something, it should be vi.

Quote:
A feature request for adding vi to the iso has already been filed. Your suggestion to remove nano is, IMO, nonsense. You don't like it -- fine. Not everyone agrees with you. I was originally opposed to adding vi because I felt it would increase the size of the ISO too much. After the other anonymous poster pointed out that ex was even smaller than nano, why not give the user a choice? (for the record, I still don't think adding vi to the stage 1 iso is necessary, but I realize that's just my opinion and others might feel differently. So, I'm open to giving users a choice.)


I'll admit the "remove nano" part is partly due to my personal distaste for it, but it's also for the reasons you stated above - Gentoo's take on it is that space requirements are a premium on the installer ISO. So if vi was a better choice for the one small editor to pack in, ditch nano to make up space. If a poll revealed more liked vi, and you kept nano alongside it anyways, that would seem kinda silly in light of the iso space desires.

Include both at this point to satisfy everyone. An extra couple hundred K isn't going to matter all that much on a 16M iso. Just seems that if Gentoo follows that line of reasoning, then there was no reason to consider space so premium as to ditch vi in the first place.

I'd take two reasons for nano being the exclusive editor on the ISO as valid:

1) If the install was so airtight, prepackaged, and dead simple that there wasn't the slightest possibility of having to do more than edit one or two files. This isn't the case with Gentoo, and shouldn't be. The freedom and ability to hack around problems from the installer image is a big bonus.

2) If the install was intended to accomodate windows people trying linux for the first time, or people who just aren't into unix enough to have dealt with vi much, and you don't want people left in vi confusion state. But, this is an advanced linux distribution for people that (relatively) know what they're doing to some extent. Gentoo in no other way caters to the newbie who would be on the level of being confused by vi.

On a final note, please don't take my vi ranting personally or as too much of a flame. While I do have strong feelings on the issue - overall I still love Gentoo, and Gentoo was worth the mental anguish of using nano for a few days to get it going. I'm hoping I never see a Redhat logo again in my life.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just my $0.02 as a Unix user in my second decade on Unix boxes:

vi needs to be there. An ex based version (not vime, pure console and curses) is al that is needed. I expect to fina vi, and nano is hardly sufficient. Leave nano there for those who want it, but plase, for us veteran unix users, put a stripped down vi on stage one and as part of the default install of all stages.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vlad wrote:
Nano was included because it's fast, simple, and easy to use; it's also light weight. Why waste bandwidth including vim/emacs on the install when it's not even needed?


As for EMACS, I agree (EMACS is an acronym for Eighty Megs And Constantly Swapping).

But I think you have some misconceptions about vi. VIM is not the only vi out there. There are versions of console-only, monochrome, non-syntax hiliting, ncurses-powered vi that are every bit as light weight as nano, both in ram/cpu and in disk storage required.

vi is almost universally standard on all *nixes, is fast, simple and easy to use (for those who have been doing unix work for a decent amount of time), and its light weight - thats why it was originally invented as part of the old AT&T/BSD unixes.

Another poster in another thread demonstrated that the needed libraries for the ex based version of vi are already in the stage one, and that adding ex based vi (the lowest commonn denominator verson of vi) would add perhaps 200K to the distro.

So you may wish to update your knowledge base and perhaps rexamine your point.

And unlike nano, by default, vi doesnt hose up line breaks.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2002 11:35 am    Post subject: e3: very small and has pico/EMACS/Vi modes... Reply with quote

An interesting option would be to use e3 http://freshmeat.net/projects/e3/ instead of nano. Main advantages:

  • very small
  • has pico, emacs, and vi mode


It is written in Assembler and takes up only 12000bytes uncompressed and 9000bytes compressed. I tried out the vi mode (e3vi) and it is very minimal but much easier to use (for me) than nano. I quickly looked at the pico mode and it lacks the constant online help (there is one on request).

Does this sound interesting?

cheers
--bud
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