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phong
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:27 pm    Post subject: The Cost of War Reply with quote

What is the cost of war?

President Dwight D. Eisenhower wrote:
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.

The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some 50 miles of concrete highway.

We pay for a single fighter with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people.

This, I repeat, is the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking.

This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.


One could argue that whatever the cost, the war in Iraq is worth it because it improves our security. If you take the time to look at the numbers though, there are better ways that money could have been spent to that effect.

Most people can't get their head around a number like $144,400,000,000. It's just too big. You can only compare it to other things that cost a lot of money. For the amount of money we've spent on the war, we could immunize all the world's children for 43 years. We could afford 2.3 million full-ride scholarships. We could provide health insurance for 55 million children. Or, if you prefer, we could instead reduce the deficit or give folks a tax break. Maybe you could get some cookies.

Perhaps you're a conservative that doesn't like Bush, but can't stand the idea of voting for a liberal like John Kerry. Please consider The Conservative Case Against George W. Bush.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, as a moderator you should be above starting more flamewars that already have 30 threads.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: The Cost of War Reply with quote

phong wrote:
Perhaps you're a conservative that doesn't like Bush, but can't stand the idea of voting for a liberal like John Kerry.
I need a reason to vote for Kerry and not against Bush. I have yet to hear a Kerry supporter (read: someone who likes Kerry, not an anybody but Bush person) give reasons to vote for the man. Reasons that would appeal to non leftists anyway.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: The Cost of War Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
phong wrote:
Perhaps you're a conservative that doesn't like Bush, but can't stand the idea of voting for a liberal like John Kerry.
I need a reason to vote for Kerry and not against Bush. I have yet to hear a Kerry supporter (read: someone who likes Kerry, not an anybody but Bush person) give reasons to vote for the man. Reasons that would appeal to non leftists anyway.


Cause Anybody But Bush! :wink:
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: The Cost of War Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
phong wrote:
Perhaps you're a conservative that doesn't like Bush, but can't stand the idea of voting for a liberal like John Kerry.
I need a reason to vote for Kerry and not against Bush. I have yet to hear a Kerry supporter (read: someone who likes Kerry, not an anybody but Bush person) give reasons to vote for the man. Reasons that would appeal to non leftists anyway.


Reasons not to vote for bush

Actually you need a reason to vote for someone, not to not to vote for someone dont you?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit: Thanks for reading my post... unlike SlicerDicer. Yes, I need a reason to vote for Kerry.

Actually, I need more than one, and they need to combine to outweigh reasons to not vote for him.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
cokehabit: Thanks for reading my post... unlike SlicerDicer. Yes, I need a reason to vote for Kerry.

Actually, I need more than one, and they need to combine to outweigh reasons to not vote for him.


So do you start off from a postition where your views normally lie? ie if you were a concervative you would start off from a Bush perspective and then if the reasons not to vote for him you dont?

Along the same political line, if there any chance of a 3rd political party becoming a force in US politics?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
pjp wrote:
cokehabit: Thanks for reading my post... unlike SlicerDicer. Yes, I need a reason to vote for Kerry.

Actually, I need more than one, and they need to combine to outweigh reasons to not vote for him.


So do you start off from a postition where your views normally lie? ie if you were a concervative you would start off from a Bush perspective and then if the reasons not to vote for him you dont?

Along the same political line, if there any chance of a 3rd political party becoming a force in US politics?


Not a snowballs chance of that happening. Third party candidates do not seem to make it past the partisan politics that are played here in the states.

I agree with pjp whole heartedly though, I'd love to find a bunch of reasons to vote FOR john kerry, instead of just these reasons to vote against bush. I already know why I do not like Bush, I'm not sure that I should like Kerry though. Not that it matters, I vote in Wyoming, we will vote for Bush for sure.. damn electoral crap. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
So do you start off from a postition where your views normally lie? ie if you were a concervative you would start off from a Bush perspective and then if the reasons not to vote for him you dont?
Neither really. Basically, I'm opposed to the massive growth of social programs that the left wants to tax everything possible to achieve. And I'm opposed to the overt religious influence of the Republican party. I think neither candidate is a viable option, and there is no "lesser" of two evils.

cokehabit wrote:
Along the same political line, if there any chance of a 3rd political party becoming a force in US politics?
Short answer, no.

Not unless the voting/election system is changed. Mainly because I don't see any compelling candidates getting air time. None of the major 3rd-party candidates over the last several elections presented a compelling enough argument to voters. Most are fringe candidates that seem a little nutty (Nader, Buchanan, Sharpton). Perot was the most recent candidate I'm aware of that received any significant attention, but just didn't compel many people to vote for him. With no disrespect to the person, Perot's choice for VP may have hurt him severely, but he would have still been a very distant 3rd.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
pjp wrote:
cokehabit: Thanks for reading my post... unlike SlicerDicer. Yes, I need a reason to vote for Kerry.

Actually, I need more than one, and they need to combine to outweigh reasons to not vote for him.


So do you start off from a postition where your views normally lie? ie if you were a concervative you would start off from a Bush perspective and then if the reasons not to vote for him you dont?

Along the same political line, if there any chance of a 3rd political party becoming a force in US politics?


That's how Clinton won!

Discouraged Republicans were voting for Perot while most democrats sticked with Clinton.

Yes, I would have liked Ross Perot as a President, in fact my family supported him up till election day when they found that only republicans were voting for him so they quickly changed their vote to Bush. It didn't help though.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Yes, I need a reason to vote for Kerry.

Well, I'd argue that having reasons to vote against Bush is good enough (i.e. the opposing Bush's positions is a position), but there are several issues where he should appeal even to conservatives. There are lots of issues I could list that you would call lefty, so I'll leave those out (that includes most of his policies about the environment, health care and education). Certainly, a few of these will appeal to you.

- He'll work toward balancing the budget.
- He'll keep taxes where they're at for most Americans. He'll repeal the tax cuts on those making over $200,000 per year (I know this is lefty to you, but balancing the budget is a conservative thing to do).
- He'll simplify the tax code and remove loopholes.
- He'll work to repeal much of the PATRIOT act and let the parts with expiration dates expire. Bush intends to continue and expand the PATRIOT act.
- He'll cut back or eliminate corporate welfare.
- He'll provide tax breaks for companies that create jobs (note: this pays for itself because an employed person pays income taxes).
- He'll treat our valued allies with respect.
- He'll increase border security, and make legal immigration more fair.
- He won't act like a theocracy.
- He'll let states decide on issues like gay marriage.
- He'll support legislation to prevent collusion by insurance companies (in particular, on malpractice insurance costs, which are a big part of the rising costs of health care).
- He'll support a "three strikes" rule for trial lawyers who bring up frivilous lawsuits.

paranode wrote:
LOL, as a moderator you should be above starting more flamewars that already have 30 threads.

It is not my intent to start a flame war. If that were the case, my post would have had no substantive content other than a claim like "Slobodan Milosevic supports Bush! OMG!!!11"

My intent was to spawn a discussion on the fiscal responsibility of starting a war in Iraq given the economic environment and Mr. Bush's claims to be a conservative.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phong: Have you heard Kerry provide details of how he'll accomplish any of that? About the only thing I've heard him explain, is that he'll repeal the tax break for anyone earning $200k+/year. Thats lovely, but wont make that much of an impact on all the things he wants to spend money on.

Maybe the Heinz family has a magic wand that he'll ask if he can use.
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Last edited by pjp on Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If could vote(I won't be 18 for slightly over year) I would definitely vote for Kerry for various reasons. For one thing, Bush seems to love giving rich/greedy people nice tax cuts which basically makes the rich people richer, and the middle-class people stay there they are in this ridiculous class system. People should just let me become a dictator so that I can setup a better system without the need for currency and such, but I don't think many people will do that. :\

Of course, for those of you unable to see how a world could function without some form of currency, I shall be writing an essay/overview of my politics and economical ideas.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pwnz3r wrote:
Of course, for those of you unable to see how a world could function without some form of currency, I shall be writing an essay/overview of my politics and economical ideas.
I look forward to reading it. The only alternatives I've read used a barter system of some sort, which was the reason money was invented in the first place.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some reasons to vote for John Kerry:

1. He has shown his prowess in diplomatic affairs. For example, he was instrumental in helping to normalize relations between Vietnam and the United States. He was also an integral part of the investigation into the POWs and MIA soldiers left behind in Vietnam.

2. He favors a more balanced budget. Bush (and especially Cheney) feel that carrying a staggering budget deficit is all right because Reagan thought it was okay. They disregard what happened in Bush the 1st's term -- he had to go against his "Read My Lips" speech and sign a bill into law that raised taxes so that the deficit could be reduced. We can't just keep spending without collecting money to pay for it all.

3. He favors more alternative energy sources to reduce dependence on foreign oil. Kerry has put forth a plan that will have 20% of the US's energy consumption from alternative means by 2010.

4. Kerry will cut health care premiums and will be able to provide 95% of US citizens with the same affordable health care that members of the federal government receive.

5. Kerry will take Bush's "No Child Left Behind" policy one step further by actually providing schools with the money and other resources that they need to keep up with the standards. As it is, schools have all of the responsibility -- to both keep the standards up and to pay for it all as well. Kerry's policy is to pay teachers a salary that is apt for such an important position to our society.

6. Kerry will tax the rich but keep the middle class tax cuts. Those who can afford to will bear the brunt of the tax burden, as it should be, as far as I'm concerned.

7. John Edwards as VP.

8. Kerry will be cautious when considering going to war. When Kerry returned from Vietnam, he realized that it was a bad idea to get involved in that war in the first place. Many Americans died, as did a lot more Vietnamese people. The mistake was, as is pointed out well in an article in this month's Vanity Fair, that we thought that military might could quell a political struggle. The people of Vietnam saw us as an invading force that must be removed at all costs, just like the colonial French had been in years before. It has been said that the current Iraq conflict is very similar. Kerry has a better understanding of this point that Bush does.

There are many more reasons to vote for Kerry. If you want to read more about them, go to http://www.johnkerry.com/plan/ and read the PDF there. You can actually skim it, as there's a lot of "fluff" in it, but the actual plan details are also laid out there, so skim carefully.

So, if you needed reasons, there are quite a few.

Another interesting point, though -- by talking about Bush's faults, we are also playing to Kerry's strengths. If Kerry is elected, he will make mistakes, as anybody would. But, he will not make the same ones that Bush makes, because the men have totally disparate views of the world. If I bash Bush by complaining about the deficit, it is because I know that Kerry will reduce it. If I complain about Bush's lack of diplomatic credit with the rest of the world's leaders, it is because I know that Kerry has more.

For the record, I'd like to know why I should vote for Bush. What is it, exactly, that he has done to make our country better? Why shouldn't I give somebody else a shot? You probably won't convince me, as Bush hasn't been able to, but I'd like to hear the reasons anyway.

C'mon.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, basically, Kerry wants to raise taxes. 2-6 almost guarantee that he'll raise taxes. I'm all for a balanced budget, but the government has more than enough taxes to do stuff with. Unless he plans on finding and removing governmental fat, I've been overburdened by taxes thanks.

I have no interest in trying to convince you to vote for Bush. All I said was, the only reason I've heard to vote for Kerry, was that it wasn't Bush. Few people give any other reason, which I find disturbing.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
So, basically, Kerry wants to raise taxes.
And Bush won't? I think phong gave the best reason...:P
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, pjp, what you're saying is that it's more important not to pay taxes than it is to have a balanced budget. Yes? Right now, we're spending more than in the Clinton administration with much less money to pay for it. How, exactly, does this justify us not paying taxes? You want war, you be ready to pay for it. You want prescription drug benefits on Medicare, you have to pay for it. You want law enforcement, homeland security, good intelligence, and safety? Like everything else, this costs money, and it is the responsibility of the American people to pay for it. No bank will allow you to borrow money indefinitely, and neither will foreign investors allow us to.

pjp wrote:
the government has more than enough taxes to do stuff with.
If this is true, then why do we have a deficit?

If you have no reason to convince me, then how about I give you one: if you want a candidate to win, then the votes of others matter as much as (if not more than) yours alone. If you truly believe in a candidate, as I do in Kerry, then you will try to get anyone you can to vote for that person. Not doing so only convinces me that you don't really care either way.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:57 pm    Post subject: um... Reply with quote

Kerry wants to repeal tax cuts on the rich, not the middle class. Make those who can afford to pay do so. I like that policy.

I also like his policy on offshore holdings...

Im not a democrat, but if bush is my only republican choice... kerry will do nicely... We all know that the presidential election is nothing more than choosing the lesser of 2 evils anyway...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
phong: Have you heard Kerry provide details of how he'll accomplish any of that?

Well, a bunch of the stuff I listed doesn't cost more money (i.e. it doesn't cost anything to repeal the PATRIOT act), and some of the things make money.

Corporate welfare is something like $150 billion dollars out of the national budget. That's not chump change. George W. Bush has increased corporate welfare dramatically. Repealing the tax cuts on the wealthy is tens of billions. Getting other countries involved in Iraq will also save tens of billions.

Most don't realize it, but government grants for scientific research often pay back many times over. For example, the amount of revenue from space-technology dependent industries (communications, materials, etc.) vastly outweighs the NASA budget. Likewise, creation of the internet (originally a project of DARPA, later promoted by the NSF, etc.) has generated billions in revenue. Research grants make up a tiny portion of the budget, but the payback is huge.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*would contribute to this thread cause he supports kerry over bush but is turned off at the amount of op's/mod's here. argueing with one is a sure ticket to bansvile.*
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
cokehabit: Thanks for reading my post... unlike SlicerDicer. Yes, I need a reason to vote for Kerry.

Actually, I need more than one, and they need to combine to outweigh reasons to not vote for him.


hey mate I was just messin with ya hehe but for me personally I dont like how bush has made it so the rest of the world thinks we will just say fuck you.

truekaiser wrote:
*would contribute to this thread cause he supports kerry over bush but is turned off at the amount of op's/mod's here. argueing with one is a sure ticket to bansvile.*


If it was put forth logical :) it would not == banninated :twisted:
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

truekaiser wrote:
*would contribute to this thread cause he supports kerry over bush but is turned off at the amount of op's/mod's here. argueing with one is a sure ticket to bansvile.*


Not at all.

I'm not sure why taxes are so bad. Look at Germany -- the streets are clean, crime is low, historical buildings are in top-notch shape, public transportation is effective and widely-utilized, and the people are generally happy. They have one of the most expensive tax systems in the world but families are still able to live affluently. And, mind you, Germany does almost everything by importing raw materials and then exporting manufactured goods, so it's not like they're the world's only source for steel or oil.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Human lives are priceless.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ask the free people of Europe if the cost of ww2 was worth it...
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