Handbook: Tone in Kernel configuration section

[Aries97]

Suggestion for more consistent and encouraging tone in the Kernel chapter

While working through the Handbook I noticed an inconsistency in the kernel configuration section that I believe is worth addressing.

The Handbook does an excellent job of reassuring new users about manual kernel configuration. The following passage is particularly encouraging and helped me greatly on my first Gentoo install:

Installing and Configuring the kernel sources

Manually configuring a kernel is commonly seen as one of the most difficult procedures a system administrator has to perform. Nothing is less true — after configuring a few kernels no one remembers that it was difficult!

However, a few paragraphs later in Option 2 – Assisted manual process, the text includes this sentence:

Some could consider this as making it hard for the sake of it.

This line creates a mixed message. While the Handbook rightly explains the trade-offs and advantages of the various approaches (and already addresses the outdated RAM-usage misconception under Kernel selection), this particular phrasing can unintentionally discourage users who, for whatever reason, choose to configure their kernel manually.

I believe the Handbook is the perfect place to build user confidence and provide clear, neutral guidance. Removing or rephrasing that single sentence would make the tone consistently positive and supportive throughout the section, without losing any of the factual information about when assisted or automated methods might be preferable.

Would the documentation team be open to adjusting this wording? Is there a better way of contacting the documentation team about this?

[Aries97]

I was very offended by this comment in the handbook.
I feel strongly that it should be removed or re-worded.

[GDH-gentoo]

Is there a better way of contacting the documentation team about this?

Creating a Wiki account and using the "Talk" page of the article. They might or might not make the change though.

[Zucca]

I was very offended by this comment in the handbook.
I feel strongly that it should be removed or re-worded.

What exact comment?

[NeddySeagoon]

Aries97,

You are taking your selective quote out of context.

This method allows a user to have full control of how their kernel is built with as minimal help from outside tools as they wish. Some could consider this as making it hard for the sake of it.

The

with as minimal help from outside tools

matters a great deal.

You have control over the level of difficulty, depending on the tools you choose to assist you.
If you choose to use none at all, which is a perfectly valid choice,

Some could consider this as making it hard for the sake of it.

is a true and valid statement.

[pietinger]

Suggestion for more consistent and encouraging tone in the Kernel chapter

While working through the Handbook I noticed an inconsistency in the kernel configuration section that I believe is worth addressing.

The Handbook does an excellent job of reassuring new users about manual kernel configuration. The following passage is particularly encouraging and helped me greatly on my first Gentoo install:

Installing and Configuring the kernel sources

Manually configuring a kernel is commonly seen as one of the most difficult procedures a system administrator has to perform. Nothing is less true — after configuring a few kernels no one remembers that it was difficult!

However, a few paragraphs later in Option 2 – Assisted manual process, the text includes this sentence:

Some could consider this as making it hard for the sake of it.

[...]
Would the documentation team be open to adjusting this wording? Is there a better way of contacting the documentation team about this?

I don’t see where the contradiction lies. Option 1 clearly states:

A very easy way to manage the kernel is to first install [...]

And of course, options 2 and 3 are a bit trickier. Anyone familiar with kernel configuration will naturally choose option 3. I’ve been doing this for over 20 years ... and when I read the linked article https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Kernel/Gen ... tion_Guide, I realise that a lot of information is missing. That’s exactly why I wrote this article:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Pieti ... figuration

More than half of the content stems from user issues that were described here in the forum. But as already mentioned in the Handbook on Kernel installation, that is not the officially recommended method ... that is Option 1.

I don’t understand what you’re saying in your second post, as the recommendations in our handbook are never intended to offend anyone. Perhaps you might want to edit your second post and clarify what you mean.

[Aries97]

Thank you everyone for the comments. I don't configure my kernel manually because I'm trying to make my life harder. I don't avoid using modprobe-db because I want to do it the hard way; I just don't know how to use that tool. I think I've tried it before, I don't remember.

The whole kernel section of the handbook is extremely confusing and very difficult to follow along with. If you think it's ok to insult users who are struggling to understand what steps they should follow and what steps they should skip -- we are very different people.

It's an insult to be told you are doing it the hard way. It means you are too stupid to do your work the easy way.

[johngalt]

You choose to compile your kernels manually. I do too, and it is what brought me to Gentoo in the very beginning - well before binary packages were even a gleam in the devs eyes.

If you are offended by the fact that " Some could consider this as making it hard for the sake of it." then the problem is not with the reader, and neither with the writers.

I accept some people think a manually configured kernel is too hard, a waste of time, not worth their time, and more. Some of those people are also perpetual Windows users. Some of them are not, preferring a Linux distro that is package based and ready to go with a simple install script from a live CD / DVD. The number of people not using Gentoo alone should make you angry and irate if what you say is true, because their reasons for not using Gentoo are more than likely at least 50% the exact same words.

Are you going to take offense with the majority of people in the world now?

I'm not. It's my choice. Let them think what they want.

[pjp]

It's an insult to be told you are doing it the hard way. It means you are too stupid to do your work the easy way.

Personally I appreciate the information it provides. That way, once I've learned, I can make the educated choice of which way I want to do it. Experience affords me a better understanding to help me choose.

So while I can appreciate a change in wording, I wouldn't want a passive voice replacement that lacks clarity, preventing me from being aware of the issue.

[b11n]

It's an insult to be told you are doing it the hard way. It means you are too stupid to do your work the easy way.

You're choosing the least charitable interpretation of the tone in spite of reasonable alternatives being offered by others here. There's a subtext implied by "Some could consider…" that for some reason you're choosing to disregard.

I spend a bit of time scrubbing the Wiki of phrasing I don't think will come off well. For me, this particular phrasing barely registers. It conveys that is more difficult, some may find it unnecessary, but nonetheless some might not. If the writer(s) felt people manually configuring their kernel were stupid, why would they spend time writing instructions on how to do so?

I accept some people think a manually configured kernel is too hard, a waste of time, not worth their time, and more. Some of those people are also perpetual Windows users.

Yeah, I don't know if pointing at an entire class of computer users as if to say "Look over there! They're the stupid ones!" is all that helpful here.

[bstaletic]

@Aries97 Would you call the book "Learn VImscript the Hard Way"? Is everything in that book an insult? That book taught me a great deal and made me a much better vim plugin maintainer.
I wish we had more neon signs flashing "HARD WAY".

[NeddySeagoon]

Everyone who configures and builds their kernel by hand should try

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make config

just once, before they Ctrl-c out.

There are degrees of difficulty, even in configuring the kernel.

[sam_]

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with making clear which parts of the handbook are optional learning opportunities vs the quick path to get up-and-running.

[johngalt]

I accept some people think a manually configured kernel is too hard, a waste of time, not worth their time, and more. Some of those people are also perpetual Windows users.

Yeah, I don't know if pointing at an entire class of computer users as if to say "Look over there! They're the stupid ones!" is all that helpful here.

Actually, I wasn't calling them (or anyone, for that matter) stupid. In the same spirit of the wiki, I said they were people who would take one look at the Handbook and declare "That is too hard - I'll stick with something I can plug in, run install, and then have everything up and ready after a reboot." I Have two elderly parents who will never take a look at any OS other than Windows, and I gladly accept that. Even being retired, with plenty of time on their hands, they are comfortable with what they know, and I refuse to be 'that guy' who tells them that they need to move on to something different. Their choice is theirs, and they have most assuredly told me that my foray into installing Gentoo on my current rig, learning all the things I have, was simply a waste of time, because it required too much effort.

They're not stupid, and they've made their choice. I respect that. But, in my eyes, they are 2 of the world's perpetual Windows users. Heck, when I was in my last two positions over the last (near) decade, I was too, because there was no translation for some of the apps I used in my roles in Linux. I choose then to run Windows on my older box, then on this box when I built it. I've chosen differently since then.

[pjp]

Everyone who configures and builds their kernel by hand should try

Code: Select all

make config

just once, before they Ctrl-c out.

There are degrees of difficulty, even in configuring the kernel.

Am I mistaken in thinking that even my early attempts on an x386 had "menuconfig" as an option? I have to believe only in the very early days would "make config" have been viable even for Linus.

[johngalt]

As I recall, first kernel I ever configured for Gentoo was with make config, and that was around the time I joined the forums. Then I was embarrassed to learn of make menuconfig (heck, there might still be a post from me about it too...)

sounds like you need to start with the compiling of the kernel then, if those files are not there. the copying of those files is achieved after you

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# make menuconfig

and adjust all the settings for the configuration of your kernel, and then

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# make && make modules_install

<snip>

That post is the day after I joined, but I cannot find where someone told *me* about

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make menuconfig