Gentoo 2007.0 GUI Installer is buggy

[Vlad.Sharp]

Yesss, I found the stage1 is still there on the mirrors - I should stop taking notice of this "not supported" rubbish in the manual and just go ahead and use it. Thanks, Vlad.Sharp

Yee-hah! I think I'm going to be doing a stage-1 this weekend. Takes longer, but always works. And *never* deletes entire partitions without my express say-so.

Hey, I hope you didn't take that to mean that it's guaranteed to work On my most recent stage1, there were at least 10 errors in the process before I could get a working system... (Not that I'm dissatisfied, it's quite fun!)

On the issue of the LiveCD being good - why not try to collaborate with Sabayon Linux? It's a gentoo based distribution, and the LiveCD (even the 700MB one) works pretty well (for installing Gentoo as well as anything else - Nvidia/Beryl, etc...)

[wolfger]

Hey, I hope you didn't take that to mean that it's guaranteed to work On my most recent stage1, there were at least 10 errors in the process before I could get a working system...

Really? I've done "stage 1" 2 or 3 times, and never had any problems that didn't derive directly from "Oh, I've done this before, I don't need to read the instructions again".

[i92guboj]

Hey, I hope you didn't take that to mean that it's guaranteed to work On my most recent stage1, there were at least 10 errors in the process before I could get a working system...

Really? I've done "stage 1" 2 or 3 times, and never had any problems that didn't derive directly from "Oh, I've done this before, I don't need to read the instructions again".

Anyhow, remember that the only supported stage is stage3.

[martoni]

One of the more disappointing experiences with the LiveCD 2006.0 was the option to upgrade the system, which you could select (don't know if it is still there) which I posted a bug on. It didn't install, or screwed up the system completely if you tried it. The main response was that "well, you shouldn't do that". To which I replied "why is the option available then?". To which the reply was (more or less) "you shouldn't do that [upgrade the system with a LiveCD] it's stupid".

I got the impression that the devs not were not really considering what they put out. Like releasing a CD that shouldn't be used as they invite people to use it.

I feel the whole 2007.0 LiveCD mess is another example of the LiveCD devs not really having a grip on what they are doing. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[walter2]

6thpink, or must I say 'Master'? It's obvious that an human opinion like mine is subjective. I am not the Owner of the True like you.
My Master, may I get grow posting here? How much will it take me be able to give an opinion? Show me the light, please!

[i92guboj]

6thpink, or must I say 'Master'? It's obvious that an human opinion like mine is subjective. I am not the Owner of the True like you.
My Master, may I get grow posting here? How much will it take me be able to give an opinion? Show me the light, please!

Take it easy, my post was not personally aimed against you at all. I just wanted to clarify some things. If you read the post entirely you will find that while I show your inaccuracy on some respects, I also show how your are right on some others (mainly the motivation of your critic).

I am not the one to show the light to anyone. If you feel that I was wrong in some respect you are free to say that as well. I just said that if you are not going to feel comfortable waiting for long compilation times then a source distro is not for you.

[NeddySeagoon]

walter2,

Sarcasm, irony and humor do not work in international forums such as Gentoo. The problem is these forms of expression vary from culture to culture.

The gentoo forums are mostly technical support. Of course anyone may express an opinion, however, you need to be able to provide supporting evidence to the doubters or the credibility of your opinions will be damaged.

[walter2]

Well, Neddy, I've notice you, at least payed attention to I've written. The prove is you released that english is not my native language.
So I will explain you: I've did two networkless intall from 2006.1 livecd, other standard, one networkless from 2007 livecd, and this (I'm writting from links) is my third intallation of gentoo absolutly from source, compiling absolutly all. Of course I'm not an advanced user but I am not an idiot like said ironically the other friend above. I think, tecnically speaking, it is not serios at all. For example, the first time I've found that the server did't had the kernel source of 2006.1 livecd so I could'nt emerge pcmcia to enable my network card. My `from source installs ' were bad experiences too. gnome did't load the half of icons. By other hand I agree with the handbook in configure the kernel is easy (I've lost the count of how many times I did it) but know what select for each machine works fine at all is practically imposible. Is my message philosophic? At least I say something reliable. I will not bother you anymore, by!

[The Unknown]

I'm using the 2007.0 full live cd AMD_64 to build my x86_64 system(not the installer tho,good old tried and true stage 3 through the gnome terminal).
I started a few days ago and I haven't had a problem yet. Every time I boot it everything works,network,services,detection of hardware,no blips blops or bugs, It loads vesa tho but so did 2006.0 I figured it was intentional. That doesn't bother me anyways. I run a AMD64 4000+ with ABIT uGURU AV8 motherboard,dual DDR400 and a BFG GeFORCE 6200 oc. It even detected and gave me both heads(clone mode felt weird but better than one).I like the gdm artwork too, seems to have a cleaner and more profressional feel.
I'd have to say I have no complaints.

[rhomp2002]

The question then is still the buggy release of the liveCD/liveDVD 2007.0.

I am sure that you have some experience with Gentoo installs since I note that you have over 90 comments. Now put yourself in the place of some of us who want to try out Gentoo to see how it works and how it compares with the other distros. We do not want to spend weeks installing it only to find that it does not meet our needs. We want a quick install that lets us see what Gentoo is like and how it performs vs Ubuntu or Mandriva or Suse or Fedora or Slackware. Once we have done that we may then choose to install Gentoo the old fashioned way as you are doing.

The LiveCD was supposedly offered to those of us who are interested in distro comparison or quick installs before we then go about tailoring the system. Unfortunately the LiveCD, as many of us have found out, destroys the rest of the hard disk and negates the whole reason for offering a LiveCD in the first place. The result of that will probably that many who would benefit from what Gentoo offers and who probably would be able to install Gentoo your way will just tell Gentoo to shove it as it is not worth going through what Gentoo is offering when it destroys the rest of the disk and then is not usable when it is installed. Not a good advertisement for Gentoo.

Now if you are an old Gentoo-er, then you will just say as many have said here that your should install it from a stage 1 install or the old fashioned way. Enjoy! I think I will stick with Sabayon which gives me Gentoo that works or one of the other distros that also works. May not be as fast and may not be as pure but it works and that is what the LiveCD of Gentoo does not support.

[The Unknown]

I'm sorry about your grief with the live cd.I understand what you are saying about checking it out, but Im confused on the whole installer thing vs "the old fashion way".Gentoo to me is about the install, the experience and everything gained, the choice and flexability, the tools and their way of things.
I will never say stage 1 its not recommended or supported

[wolfger]

Now put yourself in the place of some of us who want to try out Gentoo to see how it works and how it compares with the other distros. We do not want to spend weeks installing it only to find that it does not meet our needs. We want a quick install that lets us see what Gentoo is like and how it performs vs Ubuntu or Mandriva or Suse or Fedora or Slackware.

Well... Too bad! You can't have it! "What Gentoo is like" and "how it performs" are things you will never learn from a LiveCD, because Gentoo is based on compiling from source, optimized for your exact system, including the packages you specifically want (and their dependencies) and nothing you didn't want. A LiveCD will never be able to showcase this. It is, by its very nature, a pre-compiled binary distribution, which is exactly what Gentoo is not.

I think a LiveCD, done well, could be a great time-saver to get somebody started on the Gentoo path, but even the best LiveCD would be a horrible representation of "what Gentoo is like".

[aidanjt]

AMD64 LiveDVD detected my 8800GTS as an 'nvidia' card, which.. technically is correct, but the X.org driver doesn't support that card, only nVidia's binary blob, so I had to manually edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf and change it to 'vesa' so I could start installing from the desktop, did the manual install via Gnome's Terminal, of course, I wouldn't trust GLI with my partitions, looks like my concerns weren't warrented, although I didn't have any problems with the manual installation proceedure (obvioiusly).

[dyn-westy]

thanks drescherjm i notice that when i opened up fdisj why did the new installer not put a boot flag on the boot partition?

that seems kinda retarted to me you having to open up a terminal to set the boot flag.. come on gentoo!!

[madisonicus]

rhomp2002, I think there are some inaccuracies in your comments that should be corrected for the record.

We do not want to spend weeks installing it only to find that it does not meet our needs. We want a quick install that lets us see what Gentoo is like and how it performs vs Ubuntu or Mandriva or Suse or Fedora or Slackware. Once we have done that we may then choose to install Gentoo the old fashioned way as you are doing.

Gentoo is a source based meta-distribution. It is impossible to gain any feel for how it works if the source-based part or the meta-distribution part are avoided. In fact, the problem with the installer is that it leads to very false impressions about what using, administering, maintaining, and updating a Gentoo installation is like. If the installation process is too long for your tastes (and it takes me about 7 hours to get a full stage 3 manual installation up and running, not weeks), then it's unlikely that Gentoo is for you.

The LiveCD was supposedly offered to those of us who are interested in distro comparison or quick installs before we then go about tailoring the system.

Actually the installer, as it said in the 2006.1 version (I have not checked the latest one yet), was intended for use in simplifying the process of multiple installations when the admin already understands the manual installation process thoroughly. It has stated that it is not intended to replace the manual installation method which remains the recommended method for installing Gentoo.

These forums have been almost unanimous in urging particularly new users not to use the installer in favor of the manual method because the installer is designed to obscure many of the things that are critical to properly administering and using a Gentoo system.

Unfortunately the LiveCD, as many of us have found out, destroys the rest of the hard disk and negates the whole reason for offering a LiveCD in the first place.

It is unfortunate, but it does state clearly that the default installation method will destroy all current data on your hard drive. Whether that was a wise choice by the installer dev team is another question, but it seems inappropriate to fault them when a user does not read their explicit guidance.

The result of that will probably that many who would benefit from what Gentoo offers and who probably would be able to install Gentoo your way will just tell Gentoo to shove it as it is not worth going through what Gentoo is offering when it destroys the rest of the disk and then is not usable when it is installed. Not a good advertisement for Gentoo.

On this point, you and I could not agree more. While I'm sure there must be places where the installer has been beneficial to Gentoo users, it continues to be a PR disaster for the distribution, much to my chagrin.

I think I will stick with Sabayon which gives me Gentoo that works or one of the other distros that also works. May not be as fast and may not be as pure but it works and that is what the LiveCD of Gentoo does not support.

It's not clear to me where this "fast and pure" stuff comes from, since I hear it all over the place except here. Gentoo is not about "fast and pure" it is about choice, customization, and exposing what's hidden in most other distros all wrapped together with the excellent package manager portage.

-m

[rhomp2002]

The Live CD method does not state that it will destroy all the files on the drive except when you select the whole drive to be dedicated to Gentoo. At no time in the other choices does it say that the rest of the files will be destroyed.

It says that the long way is recommended but it also says that the Live CD is there to get an installation up and running quickly. I chose to try to get one up and running so I could see how it worked. Theoretically the people who designed the Live CD, supposedly the major backers of Gentoo, would select methods that would tend to sell Gentoo to those who install it. If they did not, then they missed a real chance to get more users of their distro. Why would you set up a Live CD so that people would not use your distro. That does not make sense. Also why would you set up a Live CD for people who are experienced users of your distro. With the Live CD almost all of the choices are made for you. Unless you are an experienced user who chooses to let someone else make your choices why would you use something like that, especially with a distro that is supposedly all about choices and making a mean and lean system. Makes no sense at all.

As to Sabayon and why someone would use it, it has the benefits of the Gentoo sources and the portage system so that you can operate it almost as if it were a full Gentoo installation and then delete and add those options that you want from the Gentoo group. With the Mini CD version of Sabayon you get the KDE installation and the access to Gentoo with a very quick and easy install and then you also have the option of tailoring it from the Gentoo handbook. Sabayon is, if you will, what the Gentoo Live CD should have been but wasn't. At this point should I choose to use Gentoo on my computer I would base it on Sabayon and get all the good stuff and not have a buggy release to worry about.

In the meantime, while Gentoo may not be for me or others like me who are looking for a Linux distro to settle on, releasing buggy systems of whatever stripe is not going to endear Gentoo to newbies or to experienced people. The experienced ones may choose to stay and wait for the corrections but that is no longer a sure thing. There are too many other choices out there that you don't have to put up with the nonsense to install.

[madisonicus]

The Live CD method does not state that it will destroy all the files on the drive except when you select the whole drive to be dedicated to Gentoo. At no time in the other choices does it say that the rest of the files will be destroyed.

This warning in the handbook isn't clear?

If you choose to go with the Recommended layout, the installer will erase any previous partitions on your disk and create three partitions: 100MB for /boot, a /swap partition up to 512MB in size, and the rest of the available space on the disk is used for /, the root partition.

From other threads it is clear that this warning is stated during the installation dialogs too. While I agree that it may be a poor design choice, the devs cannot be blamed when folks have not read the documentation.

In the meantime, while Gentoo may not be for me or others like me who are looking for a Linux distro to settle on, releasing buggy systems of whatever stripe is not going to endear Gentoo to newbies or to experienced people. The experienced ones may choose to stay and wait for the corrections but that is no longer a sure thing. There are too many other choices out there that you don't have to put up with the nonsense to install.

I have done two new installs using 2007.0 without incident and upgrade 4 others from 2006.1 to 2007.0, again without incident. Since Gentoo is a meta-distribution, releases are essentially a snapshot of the distribution at any one point. The 2007.0 release is not at all buggy. The installer is buggy. They are entirely different: like calling a font "buggy" because of a misspelled word.

[terracotta_shore]

madisonicus, I have bookmarked this page for future reference. Your post, three above - your first on this page - is an excellent and clear description of what the install CD is and is not about. I may use it on other forums. My thanks.

For what it's worth, this thread inspired me to download the 2007.0 CD about a week ago to see for myself what the complaints were about. I popped a spare HD in one of my machines and I could not get the installer to wipe pre-exisiting partitions without some sort of prior warning. Then I did an install just for the hell of it. Took about two hours (it's a relatively slow machine) and I ended up with a working install. Granted, there are some rough edges, but it worked for me. But, of course, that was with some fairly standard hardware. As always, mileage may vary I guess.

[terracotta_shore]

The Live CD method does not state that it will destroy all the files on the drive except when you select the whole drive to be dedicated to Gentoo. At no time in the other choices does it say that the rest of the files will be destroyed.

I was going to append to my previous post, but I decided to put the spare HD back and boot up with the 2007.0 disc again to see exactly what the installer says before posting again. The things I do for Gentoo.

OK. The partitioning page in the Gtk installer. Near the top the active hard drive is represented by a bar and any partitions are graphically represented on that in colour. To the left you have a pane with fairly clear instructions including, 'Recommended layout.... If you have any existing partitions, they will be deleted'. At top right are two buttons, 'Clear Partitions' and 'Recommended Layout'. If you click the clear partitions button, you get the warning:

Are you sure you wish to clear the partition table for /dev/hda? No. Yes

If you select yes, the partition table is cleared (surprise, surprise) and the hard drive bar goes grey. You can now click on the bar to get a fairly basic graphical partitioning utility. My only criticism of this is that I could not get it to create extended/logical partitions - only primary ones.

If instead of 'Clear Partitions' you select 'Recommended Layout', you are warned with:

This will clear your drive and apply a recommended partition layout. Are you sure you want to do this? No. Yes.

Hmm. 'Are you sure you want to do this?'

But what about the person who wants to slip Gentoo onto a spare partition on a multiboot? - I hear you ask. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Simply ignore 'Clear Partitions' and 'Recommended Layout', click on 'Next', select the partition(s) and mountpoint(s) you want Gentoo on, and it will install Gentoo on it/them without touching the other partitions. Oh yes it does. I did it.

As stated above, the handbook gives clear and precise warnings. So does the Gtk installer. I'm really getting the impression that it requires a determined effort at obstinacy to destroy data you want preserved.

[Kasumi_Ninja]

madisonicus, I have bookmarked this page for future reference. Your post, three above - your first on this page - is an excellent and clear description of what the install CD is and is not about. I may use it on other forums. My thanks.

For what it's worth, this thread inspired me to download the 2007.0 CD about a week ago to see for myself what the complaints were about. I popped a spare HD in one of my machines and I could not get the installer to wipe pre-exisiting partitions without some sort of prior warning. Then I did an install just for the hell of it. Took about two hours (it's a relatively slow machine) and I ended up with a working install. Granted, there are some rough edges, but it worked for me. But, of course, that was with some fairly standard hardware. As always, mileage may vary I guess.

I wholeheartedly agree. Thanks madisonicus for the excellent explanation!

[DigitalMocking]

There's no doubt the current installer has some issues if you want the graphical version.

I've had no problems using the LiveCD and just running the text installer from the command line on a few different systems now, couple of dells, couple of homebuilts.

I'd like to see the graphical installer work just because it'd be neat to see gentoo come to that point, but for me its working fine, but I haven't installed it on a drive with existing partitions or anything like that, I like starting from scratch.

[sugar]

Now put yourself in the place of some of us who want to try out Gentoo to see how it works and how it compares with the other distros. We do not want to spend weeks installing it only to find that it does not meet our needs. We want a quick install that lets us see what Gentoo is like and how it performs vs Ubuntu or Mandriva or Suse or Fedora or Slackware. Once we have done that we may then choose to install Gentoo the old fashioned way as you are doing.

Don't choose a distro by trying it out. Choose a distro with the community that can help you the most and vice versa. You should use gentoo because you realise that the community is one of the most helpful out there.

[rhomp2002]

However, it is much better if the distro does not require you to have to go to the user community but that it just works and works well. If the documentation is well -done and the distro is set up right, it should be relatively self-explanatory and then the community would just be the icing on the cake. However, if the distro does not meet your needs, then having a great user community just isn't worth it to make something you don't like usable when other distros might meet your needs better.

[sugar]

However, it is much better if the distro does not require you to have to go to the user community but that it just works and works well. If the documentation is well -done and the distro is set up right, it should be relatively self-explanatory and then the community would just be the icing on the cake. However, if the distro does not meet your needs, then having a great user community just isn't worth it to make something you don't like usable when other distros might meet your needs better.

Lets say that the ultimate is a distro that 'just works'. Without a group of people that take the packages from the developers, bug fix, provide QA etc, then the distro that 'just works' is impossible. Ubuntu 'just works' because the very large Debian community of developers is behind it. Ret hat 'just works' because of the fedora community. It works because a LOT of people have put a LOT of time into getting it to that standard.

Also, with open source, all the software is the same, and comes from the same developers. Assuming the repo's are large enough, then the only real difference between distro X and Y becomes the communities behind them.

[Pogue Mahone]

Just dropping by to give my support to Gentoo. Due to work issues I have to use Windoze right now but I am always on the lookout to come back to Gentoo. Maybe I'll switch jobs in a month which will allow me to use Gentoo again .

To the critics I would just like to say that the Gentoo community has no equal anywhere! I have made several mistakes and asked stupid questions more than once but I have always gotten polite and knowledgeable answers.

I have learned so much about Linux from having Gentoo installed and the satisfaction of growing to a level where I could handle most of the problems that arose was simply fantastic.

Sorry to hear that there are problems with the 2007.0 liveCD/DVD but if the old methods still work I will be back in a heartbeat as soon as my job situation allows it.

Keep up the good work!