Gentoo Forums

Ibn al-Hazardous wrote:And why do you think we're not getting new blood? It could be because of the snarky responses to bug filings, new ebuild filings, patch filings, etc. Of course people don't offer bug reports and patches if the get flamed for not having sacrificed a chicken at dawn, before submitting stuff.

Ya, I just recently experienced pretty snarky response to one of my bugs. My problem was that I didn't understand what the Dev was trying to do with the ebuild, but there were still other problems with the app install. So he dismissed my whole bug based on the one little part of the problem and isn't interested in fixing the rest of the bug or discussing it. I haven't had that happen since Debian years ago. But of all the years I have worked with Gentoo Dev's and Kernel Dev's on bugs, this is the first real dismissal of an issue and with a snarky response. Since I was intouch with the App Dev, I wrote him and they put up a section on how to correct the issues with the install since the Gentoo Dev couldn't be bothered.

Still the ratio is still pretty good, can't expect every Dev to be concerned, especially if there are more packages and less Dev's like some have pointed out. Some have also pointed out that most Dev's want to develop and maintain, not do paperwork. I have heard a lot of Dev's mention that also on the planet. Maybe if we have Daniel in the lead position or even someone else that does want to take care of the paperwork the Dev's can go back to doing what they like.

Plus as you have seen with one little argument we had here and all this discussion (which isn't going to solve the issue at hand anyway), that lot of times democracies don't work. Lot of times you need a head/pointman to say enough is enough. Granted, that person has to be amiable enough to try to alleviate other's concerns and listen to their objections,... but still sometimes someone has to just take the lead.

where the hell did this 92% of dev's would leave figure come from

is it just the typical forums number that was just pulled out of someone's arse for drama purposes or is there some hard evidence behind it?

After spending some time reading all the forum traffic about this issue, I started to get a feel for the situation. The problem as I see it, is that everyone can see quite clearly the situation from their own perspective. Towards the end I could see that some enlightened people were looking at the middle ground and trying to find a solution that worked for everyone. Here are several of my observations for what they are worth.

It is a lot of fun to immerse yourself in technological work and create elegant solutions. I have spent many years writing operating system code myself. In fact years ago I was self employed working on my own version of a popular operating system, and while I was distracted being the most important person at my company (the developer), I ignored the mundane business issues around me, and a business partner stole my company out from under me. There were two important lessons learned from this by me. One was that I was only a member of the team, and while everyone can't write hardware drivers like me, everyone in the company had a job to do, and when everyone did their thing, business went along fine. I was too important to distract myself with mundane business issues, and I let things get away from me. It is a privilege to be allowed to write code instead of doing less interesting but nonetheless important jobs such as technical support and writing documentation. I learned that if you are too arrogant about your occupation, you can find yourself in a situation where people don't want to work with you, and suddenly you are not so important after all. Also we learn from our life experiences, and in the 20-20 hindsight we often have regrets about how we handled things and how other people responded to us.

I think Daniel has had time enough to consider his interaction with others at the gentoo project, and right now it looks to me like he understands that someone needs to take care of less fun things like management issues. On some level I am sure he would rather be eating pizza and writing code, and enjoying the company of his technical comrades. If the people who had a difficult time with him before don't allow him to change and grow, they will in effect keep him in a little box with his regrets. Right now he wants to take a chaotic situation and straighten it out so that developers can continue taking pride in their work and users can continue to enjoy using the gentoo operating system, and that is of course the centrally important value for everyone.

I am sorry to hear that, "This is a short term situation which will be resolved by the devs." This is not only a developer problem. The project lacks central management. When a company reaches a certain size, and a product reaches a certain complexity level, the project priorities can not be determined by developers unilaterally. I think the developers are used to working on the parts that the like or are interested in, but in the real world, team members pull for the team, and do what is needed for the benefit of everyone and that means some sacrifice sometimes.

Daniel has generously offered to do what he can to help the project now in its time of need. If he is a little vague about all his plans, it may be that he has considered and committed to the less fun business tasks and realities and has not planned every aspect of the future other than he wants to do a good job for the sake of the project.

I would be more impressed with the gentoo developers if they would pull together and make things work with a new management team instead of straining to keep things the same as they have been. Change is the natural state of things. Sometimes change is exciting. When a huge project for an important client happens, a truck full of great computers can arrive. Or extra developers can arrive for a while to help with difficult development tasks. Change is not always bad. Some of what there is to learn is project management and the mentoring of younger engineers. I encourage the developers to take a wider view of things, and to share the pending decisions with the other stakeholders, for this challenge affects many other people besides them.

douglas_goodall: +++++ very wise words, thanks.

douglas_goodall wrote:I am sorry to hear that, "This is a short term situation which will be resolved by the devs." This is not only a developer problem. The project lacks central management. When a company reaches a certain size, and a product reaches a certain complexity level, the project priorities can not be determined by developers unilaterally. I think the developers are used to working on the parts that the like or are interested in, but in the real world, team members pull for the team, and do what is needed for the benefit of everyone and that means some sacrifice sometimes.

But the developers are the project and you can't force a solution they don't want on them, or we will lose devs in serious numbers. Gentoo is made up of probably around 90% code writers and maybe 10% people who do other things such as documentation (but many of those are also code writers). You can't relate an OSS project like Gentoo to a company which has sales, marketing and other departments that Gentoo simply doesn't need.

I would be more impressed with the gentoo developers if they would pull together and make things work with a new management team instead of straining to keep things the same as they have been. Change is the natural state of things. Sometimes change is exciting. When a huge project for an important client happens, a truck full of great computers can arrive. Or extra developers can arrive for a while to help with difficult development tasks. Change is not always bad. Some of what there is to learn is project management and the mentoring of younger engineers. I encourage the developers to take a wider view of things, and to share the pending decisions with the other stakeholders, for this challenge affects many other people besides them.

And here Gentoo is not a company, or a division of a company. There is no reward other than the job itself. There is going to be no new shipment of devs (tho from what I've read just about every area of Gentoo needs them and as such recruitment is obviously an area that needs to be looked at) and there will be no new shipment of shiny computers (in fact, if the leadership, new or otherwise, fails, the opposite could be true and we could find donated hardware being retracted and no where to get new donations with out the correct legal standing).

Naib wrote:where the hell did this 92% of dev's would leave figure come from

is it just the typical forums number that was just pulled out of someone's arse for drama purposes or is there some hard evidence behind it?

It didn't say 92% would leave (if drobbins returned), it said 92% on the (internal, closed) -core list was against it, while 92% here was for it. I don't think this figure is an excat messure though but rather to show the reversed situation among devs alone.

So far though we know almost nothing of what's going on there, I think they have some kind of "oath" that nothing being said can leave the list, w/o permission, due to problems in the past when devs went behind the back of each other.

EDIT: The info was left by a dev, earlier in this thread.

AllenJB wrote: But the developers are the project and you can't force a solution they don't want on them, or we will lose devs in serious numbers. Gentoo is made up of probably around 90% code writers and maybe 10% people who do other things such as documentation (but many of those are also code writers). You can't relate an OSS project like Gentoo to a company which has sales, marketing and other departments that Gentoo simply doesn't need.

The developers are not the project, they are the developers. It would be equally wrong if I would say that we the community are Gentoo.

MoonWalker wrote:

Naib wrote:where the hell did this 92% of dev's would leave figure come from

is it just the typical forums number that was just pulled out of someone's arse for drama purposes or is there some hard evidence behind it?

It didn't say 92% would leave (if drobbins returned), it said 92% on the (internal, closed) -core list was against it, while 92% here was for it. I don't think this figure is an excat messure though but rather to show the reversed situation among devs alone.

So far though we know almost nothing of what's going on there, I think they have some kind of "oath" that nothing being said can leave the list, w/o permission, due to problems in the past when devs went behind the back of each other.

EDIT: The info was left by a dev, earlier in this thread.

leave/against... its still a number that seems to have been pulled out of someones arse

is it too much to ask for some facts as oppose to dramatizing something to get a point across

its one thing to say "the majority of traffic on -dev is against the idea" then to actually attached some statistical figure to it

dylansmrjones wrote:

NeddySeagoon wrote:ps,

Nope, drobbins is offering to fix the perceived problems without saying how, by when, with whose help at what cost and so on.
I'm old and cynical, to me it appears like a little like a politican promising 'jam tomorrow' without saying how they will deliver.

Hes asking Gentoo to just 'Trust Me' and I don't see any grounds for having that level of confidence that he can deliver what he appears to be offering.
I'm not suggesting he can't either. Much more information is required.

Considering he's the one who gave birth to gentoo I think he's a better option than a forum administrator, who feels his/her little fief is threatened...

That is pretty insulting, what have you contributed to Gentoo lately?

AllenJB wrote:But the developers are the project and you can't force a solution they don't want on them, or we will lose devs in serious numbers. Gentoo is made up of probably around 90% code writers and maybe 10% people who do other things such as documentation (but many of those are also code writers).

Excuse the ad hominem, but I guess you never have worked on a larger software project.
Just because a car is 90% engine and 10% other stuff, if you ship a car without transmission the product (the result) will be a failure. Especially if you cannot bold on the transmission afterwards. You can not make up lack of management with development competence.

As for devs leaving: Devs are leaving right now (the numbers by dbergholz are just an indication, but reading planet gentoo pretty much confirms that). Devs are leaving because many problems are _not_ decided on and derefered. Its pure speculation that more Devs will leave, if there are solutions "forced" that they are not 100% happy with.
A Dev seeing solutions being implemented even though he might not be happy with 20% of them will be happier than a Dev seeing no solutions at all. He gets 80% more stuff the way he wanted than before. This is a prime example of the Pareto principle.

Slalomsk8er wrote:

AllenJB wrote: But the developers are the project and you can't force a solution they don't want on them, or we will lose devs in serious numbers. Gentoo is made up of probably around 90% code writers and maybe 10% people who do other things such as documentation (but many of those are also code writers). You can't relate an OSS project like Gentoo to a company which has sales, marketing and other departments that Gentoo simply doesn't need.

The developers are not the project, they are the developers. It would be equally wrong if I would say that we the community are Gentoo.

This is a fallacy. If the users leave, there's still the developers. If the developers leave, there is nothing for the users to use. This is not a company that relies on profits from users. It's an open source project created by the developers to scratch an itch.

Using the gentoo-devel ml and planet-gentoo, Gentoo lost 0 developers and gained 2 developers for the period 22nd December to present. WHERE ARE THE RETIREMENTS? The only one I specifically remember relatively recently was uberlord, who is still effectively working for Gentoo, but split off baselayout into openrc (so that other distro's can use it easily, afaik).

Aniruddha wrote:

dylansmrjones wrote:

NeddySeagoon wrote:ps,

Nope, drobbins is offering to fix the perceived problems without saying how, by when, with whose help at what cost and so on.
I'm old and cynical, to me it appears like a little like a politican promising 'jam tomorrow' without saying how they will deliver.

Hes asking Gentoo to just 'Trust Me' and I don't see any grounds for having that level of confidence that he can deliver what he appears to be offering.
I'm not suggesting he can't either. Much more information is required.

Considering he's the one who gave birth to gentoo I think he's a better option than a forum administrator, who feels his/her little fief is threatened...

That is pretty insulting [...]

++
Neddy plays (played ?) a very important role for gentoo, esp. in terms of help & support -> you see his number of posts ?
all are worth it

even though I think gentoo needs some change

where is the PR announcement, btw? or are the devs / whoever in charge are only able to produce "hot air"

AllenJB wrote:This is a fallacy. If the users leave, there's still the developers. If the developers leave, there is nothing for the users to use. This is not a company that relies on profits from users. It's an open source project created by the developers to scratch an itch.

Thats a fallacy too. Developers are users. User that got granted access to resources (like the CVS of the portage tree) because of the trust of the community in them. The resources again are a good of the community. Without the community there would be not resources.

This was indeed different, when gentoo was still a property of DRobbins. But it is not anymore.

AllenJB wrote:

Ibn al-Hazardous wrote:There are still a bunch of people going on about gentoo as a project not being in a decline. So, once again, check out the statistics Donnie Berkholz gathered for an article in LWN: http://lwn.net/Articles/253875/

If you look at the second and third diagram, you'll clearly see that gentoo has been losing ca 40% of its developers for the last two years. The problem is that for all that time, the portage tree has been growing. So, fewer people give their tender love to more software. I can't see how that could go on, without an increase in bugs.

The second graph doesn't tell us anything about when developers retired. It only tells us about the recruitment date of retired and active developers on the date the graph was created.

There are factors to partially explain the results on the third graph - overlays (which are stored in svn, not cvs) for example have replaced masked packages as the primary form of testing new packages, resulting in less commits to the main tree in cvs. There was also a point where a large amount of triage was carried out, axing many packages that had been put in the tree and then left to rot for various reasons - developers are now, as far as I've seen, a lot more cautious about simply adding new packages to the main tree, instead using overlays to carry these packages.

Re diagram no 3, that was my bad. Regarding diagram 2, it shows a steep decline of joining devs. Diagram no 1 shows average lifetime as a dev. Though it has been steadily climbing, it's no more than two years. Though that may not be as short as it sounds, combined with the steep decline three years ago - the result is a decline of active devs taking place now.

Of course, the situation can be affected. But it won't be affected unless people in a leading position are even aware of it.

Also, as pointed out in the later graphs, it wasn't largely active developers who retired, but inactive ones.

I don't believe developers or users are leaving en masse as you claim. People are always claiming this and I've never seen it to be true.

It's interesting that we should just believe your gut feeling, though you have the luxury to be able to demand hard numbers. Well, I did give you hard numbers (2005+2=2007 - what now?), and you still claim your gut feeling is superior. So, mr Rational - give us something rational.

On to the next subject. Usefulness of users, and snarkyness of devs:
Some time ago, there was a modular release of X. The devs then went public with a request that users test the unstable version (in the forums at that), and submit all packages that had problems. A bit more than halfway through this testing, the devs moved the next version of X into unstable, without so much as a warning to the people who were helping them with the testing. This next version broke binary compatibility (which made every tester using nvidia or ati drivers break their installation badly, and that was the majority of the testers).

When users were complaining about being bitten by the ones they were help, every response was snarky (apparently they shouldn't have used unstable, in spite of the fact they were asked to). A dev is not even beholden to the users the dev has asked for help. Pretty many of the users helping out threw their hands up in disgust then.

AllenJB wrote:It's an open source project created by the developers to scratch an itch.

Now I don't really want to become part of this nitpicking, but this sentence just feels wrong in the current situation.
Isn't at least one person missing from these developers right now who has played a bigger part than any of the rest of the developers in creating this open source project.
His return has to count in the positive direction for at least the loss of a few of the other developers who might leave because he returns.
Also he is going to be working on this project part time, as far as I know everything everyone does here is in their free time ... which of course is to be admired, but also means that he will add quite a few resources to the project.
Add to that he will even be directed many of these resources towards doing things that none of the other developers really seem interested in doing, but which is very vital to the project.

Slalomsk8er wrote:

AllenJB wrote: But the developers are the project and you can't force a solution they don't want on them, or we will lose devs in serious numbers. Gentoo is made up of probably around 90% code writers and maybe 10% people who do other things such as documentation (but many of those are also code writers). You can't relate an OSS project like Gentoo to a company which has sales, marketing and other departments that Gentoo simply doesn't need.

The developers are not the project, they are the developers. It would be equally wrong if I would say that we the community are Gentoo.

AllenJB, you said before you some tiime try to play the deviles advocate to trigger responses and see how people react, I assume the above is such a try. Honestly, isn't this just another sophisticated description of trolling? To me at least it comes out this way, but that's my personal opinion. I don't mean you arent alowed to have your personal opinion, but please stop acting as a devs spokeman unless you are one, and don't tell people to ***** just because mods seem to let you get along with it. You may haveearned yourself a respected position within Gentoo due to your contributions etc, and I respect that and think it's great - but it doesn't give you the right sit on others as it pleases you.

For my part I think I have heard and said enough in this discussion, now I will wait and see what happens. One good thing I have noted this far though is that many users with a low post count has come forward and I think it's one true indication of this matters serious nature. I hope it will result in a real fix a.k.a at least a decent clean up and maturing of the project body. I for one ask for a "strong" leader, be it Drobbins or not, but so far I haven't seen any alternatives. Now I as many other has work to attend, building a business relying on Gentoo, and I hope I don't have to change direction in that sense at least.

AllenJB wrote:This is a fallacy. If the users leave, there's still the developers. If the developers leave, there is nothing for the users to use. This is not a company that relies on profits from users. It's an open source project created by the developers to scratch an itch.

If all developers leave, the users still have the status quo to use, if the developer don't demolish the infrastructure on the way out. And maybe some users with skill decide to start being developers and some ex developers decide they are needed again? It seams like normal that things are a little complexer then black vs. white.

astinus wrote:

AllenJB wrote:What he actually said was:

If the trustees want to pursue this transition plan, they need to let me know within the next 7 days - by Friday, January 18th, 2008 at the latest.

The word possibility appears no where in his post. Maybe I did misread the intention of it, but what if I didn't?

That's the read I got of it, and making such a decision in <30 days is unreasonable. Such a critical decision should be put to a vote of all members; that alone takes 2-3 weeks at minimum.

In that case, instead of saying an explicit NO, we should tell him to wait a little longer, unless a decision has been taken.

Gentoo Foundation Charter

[...]
Gentoo is open:

Every aspect of Gentoo is and remains open. Gentoo does not benefit from hiding any of its development processes (whether it is source code or documentation, decisions or discussions, coordination or management).

Gentoo lives for the community, by the community:

Gentoo strives to please its users. The Gentoo community is Gentoo's goal of life. Without community there is no Gentoo. To help Gentoo's development, the community provides a continuous stream of feedback and contributes to the various aspects of the Gentoo distribution. This cooperative model will remain valid for Gentoo's entire lifespan.
[...]

Some Information about the Foundation:

Gentoo Foundation Charter ( http://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/ )
Social Contract ( http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml )
Proposed Bylaws of the Gentoo Foundation, Inc ( http://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/bylaws.xml )
Gentoo Foundation Funding and Expenditures ( http://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/funds.xml )
Gentoo Foundation Inc. Articles of Incorporation ( http://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/articles.xml )

GENTOO FOUNDATION, INC. ( http://www.nmprc.state.nm.us/cgi-bin/pr ... DATION+INC )
GENTOO GAMES, INC. ( http://www.nmprc.state.nm.us/cgi-bin/pr ... +GAMES+INC )
GENTOO TECHNOLOGIES, INC. ( http://www.nmprc.state.nm.us/cgi-bin/pr ... LOGIES+INC )

--> "LICENSE WAS REVOKED...NAME UNAVAILABLE"

Tallak

Slalomsk8er wrote:

AllenJB wrote:This is a fallacy. If the users leave, there's still the developers. If the developers leave, there is nothing for the users to use. This is not a company that relies on profits from users. It's an open source project created by the developers to scratch an itch.

If all developers leave, the users still have the status quo to use, if the developer don't demolish the infrastructure on the way out. And maybe some users with skill decide to start being developers and some ex developers decide they are needed again? It seams like normal that things are a little complexer then black vs. white.

What status quo? If the developers leave, and assuming no one "turns out the lights" on their way out, all the donated hardware will be pulled (I'm assuming that basically literally all the developers leave here, meaning the companies donating the hardware will hear of the event) and all the mirrors will stagnate / shutdown and the users will be left with nothing. The devs wouldn't need to destroy the infastructure, it would rot and fail on its own with no one maintaining it.

kernelOfTruth,

kernelOfTruth wrote:Neddy plays (played ?)

Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated
[With thanks to Mark Twain]

I'm a long time user of Gentoo (since about 2003), and I really hope drobbins comes back. I think he actually cares about the project. To those that accuse him of being too inflammatory, take a look at Linus ffs. He has no qualms about squashing people when it is needed. It is actually a quality when in a leadership role.

Something that people may find interesting is that I have all the skills required to become a dev, but I've never actually dared. Not because I don't think I'm capable, but because there are simply too many fights. I'm no moth, I'm not attracted to flames. So I prefer to remain a user.

I feel sure I'm not alone.

MoonWalker wrote:but please stop acting as a devs spokeman unless you are one, and don't tell people to ***** just because mods seem to let you get along with it.

WHERE have I ever said that I'm a spokesperson for the developers??? I am not acting as a spokesperson for anyone but myself. I am simply posting my own opinions and thoughts on the situation.

AllenJB wrote:

Slalomsk8er wrote:

AllenJB wrote: But the developers are the project and you can't force a solution they don't want on them, or we will lose devs in serious numbers. Gentoo is made up of probably around 90% code writers and maybe 10% people who do other things such as documentation (but many of those are also code writers). You can't relate an OSS project like Gentoo to a company which has sales, marketing and other departments that Gentoo simply doesn't need.

The developers are not the project, they are the developers. It would be equally wrong if I would say that we the community are Gentoo.

This is a fallacy. If the users leave, there's still the developers. If the developers leave, there is nothing for the users to use. This is not a company that relies on profits from users. It's an open source project created by the developers to scratch an itch.

Yes, because Gentoo users are notoriously stupid - and none of them will step up to the plate. Right?

Oh, and gentoo devs are so smart - they don't need any help with testing. They also procreate via splitting, like cells.

Using the gentoo-devel ml and planet-gentoo, Gentoo lost 0 developers and gained 2 developers for the period 22nd December to present. WHERE ARE THE RETIREMENTS? The only one I specifically remember relatively recently was uberlord, who is still effectively working for Gentoo, but split off baselayout into openrc (so that other distro's can use it easily, afaik).

This is a fallacy because, a) your measurement is made during a time period so short as to be statistically insignificant, and b) it coincides with the holiday period. I bet you'll see a lot more retirements in March/April for the simple reason that people have a lot to do at work/school - and it's in the middle between holidays.

Also, I fail to see how a retirement during the period would have impacted the planet. (Wasn't it suffering from lack of love btw? Would it have been updated?) As for the mailing list, how do we see what/how many people are subscribed, and how do we know retired devs are unsubscribed in a timely manner?

ravloony wrote: I feel sure I'm not alone.

Nope, you're not alone.