why Gentoo sucks, and why it will ultimately die

[Coelacanth]

I had to recompile Gnome several times just to get JPEG and MPEG support which I had neglected to put in my make.conf. It is pretty obvious that anyone who wants a working Gnome would need JPEG and MPEG. The distribution is loaded with issues like this.

You mean users who whine about not getting a perfect desktop system when they aren't using the desktop profile?

[d2_racing]

You mean users who whine about not getting a perfect desktop system when they aren't using the desktop profile?

Yeah use the 2007.0/desktop instead of manually plugging your use flags

[theRealMorpheu5]

LoL - that's the best comment

That's absolutely true, indeed: I switched to Arch after months of very great confusion on my system (such as random lockups and a big mess that eventually prevented me from using the newest ati-drivers) and then, after only two days I was back to Gentoo compiling my *ss bottom up again. And now everything works

[justincataldo]

Some points are true, but I think, as a whole, it's just easier.

The documentation for Gentoo is much better and more details than that for any other distro I've come across, and I've tried about 30 of them over the years.

After using Gentoo more and more over the last 5 years, it has become the distro which I am most comfortable using. Setting up everything manually without the 'comfort' and 'elegance' of the Anaconda installer, has also given me a much more fundamental understanding of Linux as a whole. There have been many occasions when I have just given up trying to get things working with another distro, scrapped it, and installed Gentoo.

More often than not, if there is a serious problem, many people will have it, it will appear on the forums and be fixed within days. So I think the community is stronger too!

Thanks Gentoo! It sure has been a fun ride.

[gerard27]

@justincataldo

++

Gerard.

[omnio]

More often than not, if there is a serious problem, many people will have it, it will appear on the forums and be fixed within days.

Like the expat one? That lasted like... 6 months? Or maybe it wasn't serious enough.

[qcubed]

More often than not, if there is a serious problem, many people will have it, it will appear on the forums and be fixed within days.

Like the expat one? That lasted like... 6 months? Or maybe it wasn't serious enough.

"More often than not" != Always

[nadir-san]

Well this post is two and a half years old now, and gentoo appears to be still alive and kicking, I know I still use it on my desktop without any problems at least.

[platojones]

Yes...I'm waiting for someone to change the title of this thread to:

why This Thread sucks, and why it will ultimately die

[szczerb]

Yes...I'm waiting for someone to change the title of this thread to:

why This Thread sucks, and why it will ultimately die

I doubt it ever will. It appeared not long after my first install and it's still here...there will always be some people whining. There is one way to help die though...we need to start a lot of threads in this subforum. When it gets pushed a few pages away from the front, it shall stay buried forever, as the forum search engine sucks balls big time

[platojones]

Yes...I'm waiting for someone to change the title of this thread to:

why This Thread sucks, and why it will ultimately die

I doubt it ever will. It appeared not long after my first install and it's still here...there will always be some people whining. There is one way to help die though...we need to start a lot of threads in this subforum. When it gets pushed a few pages away from the front, it shall stay buried forever, as the forum search engine sucks balls big time

Nah, it's no use. It died for about 7 months at one point, and sprang back to life. Live and let live I say. It's kind of ironic, because this thread will be here as long as Gentoo is alive....from the looks of it, for a very long time. Five years from now, I look forward to posting on it again

[szczerb]

Maybe the search engine just had it's better days at that time?

[desultory]

Five years from now, I look forward to posting on it again

Considering our current policy of locking topics at approximately thirty pages and the rate of growth of this topic, it should be locked well before then, unless someone manages to get us much better database service before that happens.

[platojones]

Five years from now, I look forward to posting on it again

Considering our current policy of locking topics at approximately thirty pages and the rate of growth of this topic, it should be locked well before then, unless someone manages to get us much better database service before that happens.

Oh, didn't know that...but hey! We are only one third of the way to the lock limit. If I quite adding to this thread, then maybe in five years, I will be able to make that post after all

[disi]

Back to Topic. I have no problem with software just thrown at ~arch users for testing. Two days ago I got the 180.27 nvidia-drivers, installed, X froze...

Code: Select all

"echo ">=x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers-180.27*" >> /etc/portage/package.mask && emerge -DuN world"

Since I needed to do something and couldn't find any log about it, back to 180.22 and all if fine. I am not sure if this is a problem with my Graphic cards or with the driver Otherwise I would have filed a bugreport. Sometimes when it is too cold in the room X refuses to start. If I do some compiling first on the console and then start the X server all is fine. I will check this on the weekend again.

I still try to find a better system than Gentoo without success. Since two weeks I try to find a proper distribution for virtualisation ... colleague asks to come over...

[kicker69101]

si si

except the growing cancer that is the "it should just work" culture.

I do believe that the word cancer is a very good choice. I like how gentoo is and not how ubuntu is. Just because ubuntu is popular at the moment (I remember the days when redhat was the popular one), doesn't mean that we should ride on their model.

[alexandervdm]

si si
except the growing cancer that is the "it should just work" culture.

Hold on, you are actually attacking a principle that strives to give users a comfortable experience without headaches?
How am I supposed to defend Gentoo against my Debian/Ubuntu using friends with masochistic quotes like this on the board?

[slackline]

si si
except the growing cancer that is the "it should just work" culture.

Hold on, you are actually attacking a principle that strives to give users a comfortable experience without headaches?
How am I supposed to defend Gentoo against my Debian/Ubuntu using friends with masochistic quotes like this on the board?

You misunderstand about the intended user-group of Gentoo.

Its really quite an experimental distribution, if you want to have a good experience you pretty much have to learn how to use it, and how to fix problems that can and will occur. The result is you end up with a highly customised distribution that suits your needs.

The flipside of this is Debian/Ubuntu where packages are provided as pre-compiled binaries that will work on any architecture and with virtually all dependencies compiled in which adds bloat, but means that things will "just work".

You shouldn't need to defend the choice of one distribution over another to your friends, since its your choice. You can tell them your reasons for choosing it, and if they disagree thats fine, but its not a battle as you are insinuating.

[desultory]

Remind them that just working does not necessarily mean that it works well or does what is desired of it in a given situation, or remind them that just working can make it harder to make something do more than just work. The problem comes not from making the basic easy, it comes when more advanced usage is hindered by simplifying the already simple.

[slackline]

si si
except the growing cancer that is the "it should just work" culture.

Hold on, you are actually attacking a principle that strives to give users a comfortable experience without headaches?

Further to my above reply, yes I would attack a principle taht strives to give users a comfortable experience without headaches.

After all, thats what M$-Windoze strives to do, and look how many people have headaches with that!!!

The principle that should be borne in the forefront of the mind of anyone who wants to use a computer is that it is a tool, and quite a complex one at that. They therefore need to understand how to use that tool. You wouldn't pick up jewllers diamond cutters or indeed many powertools and expect to be able to use them without learning how they work and how they should be used.

The culture of "it should just work" is demonstrative of plain laziness, and people who can't be bothered to help themselves, shouldn't expect others to help them, or be surprised when they get told to do it themselves.

[Aquiles]

Further to my above reply, yes I would attack a principle taht strives to give users a comfortable experience without headaches.

After all, thats what M$-Windoze strives to do, and look how many people have headaches with that!!!

The principle that should be borne in the forefront of the mind of anyone who wants to use a computer is that it is a tool, and quite a complex one at that. They therefore need to understand how to use that tool. You wouldn't pick up jewllers diamond cutters or indeed many powertools and expect to be able to use them without learning how they work and how they should be used.

The culture of "it should just work" is demonstrative of plain laziness, and people who can't be bothered to help themselves, should expect others to help them.

I completely agree with you. A computer is a complex tool, and telling someone that with whatever O.S it will be very easy to use is plain lie (of course you lie if you want lazy people to buy your product).

At best there will be a few functions that will be easy to use, but once confronted with any problem that may arise in your computer (and problems do arise, sooner or later) either you know how to find your way out of the mess (and that requires learning) or you are screwed, because it is not possible to use a complex tool in a non-complex way. You can ask the O.S developers to manage to get some functions to be easily accessible, but the O.S as a whole remains complex, and dealing with the functions that didn't fall into the scope of the "functions that should be easy to use" will still be complex.

So, I would say that there are two options:

1.- You make a complex software with a lot of uses and possibilities: then users will have to deal with complexity.
2.- You cut down the uses and possibilities of your software making it simpler to use at the same time: then users don't have to deal with complexity, because the software is simpler but also less functional (in the sense that it has less possible uses).

[alexandervdm]

Remind them that just working does not necessarily mean that it works well or does what is desired of it in a given situation, or remind them that just working can make it harder to make something do more than just work. The problem comes not from making the basic easy, it comes when more advanced usage is hindered by simplifying the already simple.

I agree full-heartedly with that last line, but I hope you agree that ultimately it's up to the user to define the level of operation that he finds sufficient/acceptable.

The principle that should be borne in the forefront of the mind of anyone who wants to use a computer is that it is a tool, and quite a complex one at that. They therefore need to understand how to use that tool. You wouldn't pick up jewllers diamond cutters or indeed many powertools and expect to be able to use them without learning how they work and how they should be used.
.

I completely agree with you. A computer is a complex tool, and telling someone that with whatever O.S it will be very easy to use is plain lie (of course you lie if you want lazy people to buy your product).
At best there will be a few functions that will be easy to use, but once confronted with any problem that may arise in your computer (and problems do arise, sooner or later) either you know how to find your way out of the mess (and that requires learning) or you are screwed, because it is not possible to use a complex tool in a non-complex way. You can ask the O.S developers to manage to get some functions to be easily accessible, but the O.S as a whole remains complex, and dealing with the functions that didn't fall into the scope of the "functions that should be easy to use" will still be complex.

I normally can't stand using real-world analogies as a metaphor, but I'm going to do one anyway. Do you own a car? If so, do you know the inner workings of the engine? Assuming you own a computer, do you know boolean algebra and do you understand maxwell's equations on electromagnetism? Your answers to these questions are not relevant, because you don't have to. The way technology is packaged makes it able for a broad range of people to use and enjoy it. The same goes for using linux distributions:

The culture of "it should just work" is demonstrative of plain laziness, and people who can't be bothered to help themselves, shouldn't expect others to help them, or be surprised when they get told to do it themselves.

This is probably the worst advertising for the Gentoo approach I have ever read. There is no denying that distributions like Ubuntu/Suse/etc appeal to a wide range of users. Why do you think some of the most technical minded people in the world choose to use a no-brains distribution to work on? Linus himself using Fedora is an example that comes to mind. It's because people choose their technological battles. Even though you and me like to play around with our systems and try experimental features and sometimes break it, doesn't mean everyone does. I imagine Linus, for all the advanced kernel stuff he's involved with, being perfectly happy as long as his favourite editor starts and he can type in it. The principle is identical for every user whether he wants his linux box to check his email or calculate the schwarzschild radius of a black hole; as long as the tool performs the task at a level that pleases the user, it ends there.

Ultimately, declaring the "it should just work" culture as a growing cancer and being negative about the idea in general benefits no one. The gentoo approach is not superior, it's different. It's time we let this zealotry fly and focus on advocating our own strengths instead of their supposed weaknesses.

[gerard27]

++

[slackline]

I normally can't stand using real-world analogies as a metaphor, but I'm going to do one anyway. Do you own a car? If so, do you know the inner workings of the engine? Assuming you own a computer, do you know boolean algebra and do you understand maxwell's equations on electromagnetism? Your answers to these questions are not relevant, because you don't have to. The way technology is packaged makes it able for a broad range of people to use and enjoy it. The same goes for using linux distributions:

Yes I own both a car and a computer (well several actually). I understand the basics of the infernal combustion engine, transmission, gears and so forth, and have tinkered around when I want to. I also have understanding of some boolean principles, less so the equations that predict electromagnetism. I do understand your analogy and its perfectly valid, however I think that different technology is packaged in different ways and aimed at different users. Hence why you have some quite technically involved distributions (Gentoo, LFS, Arch and Slackware) and others that are more "friendly" (Fedora, RedHat, CentOS, Ubuntu), just as you can get a kit-car and build it from scratch or you can walk into a dealership and buy a brand spanking new car. Its people who think they can buy a kit car and after having paid for it they should be able to drive it away straight away who I find irksome as they've clearly misunderstood that they need to put the thing together in the first place.

The culture of "it should just work" is demonstrative of plain laziness, and people who can't be bothered to help themselves, shouldn't expect others to help them, or be surprised when they get told to do it themselves.

This is probably the worst advertising for the Gentoo approach I have ever read.

That wasn't specific to Gentoo, its a general belief/point of view that I have towards people who complain that things don't work they way they expect them to. 99.9% of the time its because they have a preconception as to how things should work without having spent the time to investigate how they work in the first instance.

Ultimately, declaring the "it should just work" culture as a growing cancer and being negative about the idea in general benefits no one. The gentoo approach is not superior, it's different. It's time we let this zealotry fly and focus on advocating our own strengths instead of their supposed weaknesses.

We agree on this completely, I made the point that Gentoo is an experimental distribution, so bringing the "it should just work" attitude to it isn't going to get you far as you have to accept that this is not perhaps the goal of the distribution. It will however get you further with Ubuntu.

[jonnevers]

si si
except the growing cancer that is the "it should just work" culture.

Hold on, you are actually attacking a principle that strives to give users a comfortable experience without headaches?
How am I supposed to defend Gentoo against my Debian/Ubuntu using friends with masochistic quotes like this on the board?

easy. you're not supposed to.

practically speaking, I wasn't 'attacking' the principle itself but rather the users that continually parrot that it must be that way.