Should the Gentoo trustees accept Daniel Robbins offer?

Message

platojones · Post by **platojones** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:30 pm

Well, I hope it is obvious that Gentoo needs some leadership and soon. We've had some great people involved, but I have no doubt that Gentoo takes a lot away from those involved with little compensation (maybe, an occasional attaboy). Daniel, no matter what anybody thinks of him, seems to be willing to step up and take over what looks to be an albatross around everybody else's neck. If the facts are what he claims (and I'm not claiming that the current trustees are in any way guilty of anything but trying to have normal lives), then they should probably turn it over to someone who understands the issues, and wants to tackle them. That person is clearly Daniel Robbins. This isn't a technical job, it's a management job and he showed he at least had that when he started Gentoo. If the current trustees disagree, they do need to step forward and explain why.

L4in · Post by **L4in** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:30 pm

i'm not sure i need more information. Just the comparison of how was the project with robbins and how is now is enough for me...
Trustees must accept the offer imo...

ps · Post by ps » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:34 pm

NeddySeagoon wrote:ps,

Err, no. Funtoo is drobbins rolling some Gentoo packages his way.
No Gentoo, no Funtoo, no Saybyon, no <other-gentoo-derived-distros>

The Gentoo Foundation is not Gentoo. Its a legal body in the USA to hold Gentoos assets, like hardware and intellectual property.
The technical side of Gentoo can exist without it. There are other options besides a Gentoo Foundation for holding Gentoos assets.

Ok, I think I understand. As long as this gigantic interest in Gentoo continues, then the legal stuff will have to be sorted out one way or the other. Which means that the apparent "BIG EMERGENCY" may not be so big. And my Gentoo is secure. Right?

ps

platojones · Post by **platojones** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:44 pm

Which means that the apparent "BIG EMERGENCY" may not be so big. And my Gentoo is secure. Right?

I'm not so sure it isn't a big emergency. I've been with Gentoo since 2002, and have seen the period of great growth and improvement. But lately, there has been so much friction that it seems Gentoo has started to seize up. It seems things are being neglected now in several areas, the Gentoo foundation being just one. I doubt Daniel would have made the statements he did in his offer without the facts to back them up. No matter what the reason, Gentoo does go the way of the foundation. If it craters, then the distro, in it's original form, is not viable. The first immediate step is to get the Gentoo foundation back on track. Then, we need some technical people, of which we have many, to step into leadership roles and start making the Gentoo tech aspects tick again.

hollerith · Post by **hollerith** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:51 pm

What is the problem exactly?

bmichaelsen · Post by **bmichaelsen** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:53 pm

ps wrote:Ok, I think I understand. As long as this gigantic interest in Gentoo continues, then the legal stuff will have to be sorted out one way or the other. Which means that the apparent "BIG EMERGENCY" may not be so big. And my Gentoo is secure. Right?

Well, gentoo is still rather informal and since devs dont get payed, loosing the legal basis is a lot less serious than in a company. However it will become a problem soon, I guess. (For example: ownership of domains.)
ebuild maintainers are continuing their work as if nothing ever happen. Most herds are holding up. However, GWN, PR and a few more project are still hurting. See http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/54032 for a complete overview of the status of gentoo.

The main problem is the lack of strategic leadership, a lack of a well defined vision or mission statement. There is a lot of fighting about the future direction and there is no decision made because blocking vetos are respected even from minorities. This is problematic for things like EAPI, OpenRC/Baselayout2, PMS to name a few (these should not be discussed here, as this would be the certain road to flamewar). Facing two options gentoo was stuck with choosing neither.

ps · Post by ps » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:03 am

thanks bmichaelsen

If I understand correctly, Daniel is offering exactly what is required to solve this dilemma, and get things back on track as they should be.

ps

ryker · Post by **ryker** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:04 am

Digg this thread so more people find out about it and participate in the discussion.

bmichaelsen · Post by **bmichaelsen** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:07 am

hollerith wrote:What is the problem exactly?

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/54066
... along with a lot mudslinging and bridgeburning in the last year(*)

(*) example:
http://www.kulleen.org/seemant/blog/200 ... roup-gets/
That is of cause just one view on one part of the story. Dont take this post as the only truth, I link to it to let you get an idea. And dont try to find the guilty. Experience says by the time the **** has hit the fan, there are no innocent left.

Its not important "who did this" or "who failed". Actually there are indications that nobody failed and this was just bound to happen with the old stucture of gentoo. The important questions are: "How do we get out of this mess?" and "How do we make sure it wont happen again?"

Post by **NeddySeagoon** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:24 am

ps,

Nope, drobbins is offering to fix the perceived problems without saying how, by when, with whose help at what cost and so on.
I'm old and cynical, to me it appears like a little like a politican promising 'jam tomorrow' without saying how they will deliver.

Hes asking Gentoo to just 'Trust Me' and I don't see any grounds for having that level of confidence that he can deliver what he appears to be offering.
I'm not suggesting he can't either. Much more information is required.

ryker · Post by **ryker** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:32 am

NeddySeagoon wrote:ps,

Nope, drobbins is offering to fix the perceived problems without saying how, by when, with whose help at what cost and so on.
I'm old and cynical, to me it appears like a little like a politican promising 'jam tomorrow' without saying how they will deliver.

Hes asking Gentoo to just 'Trust Me' and I don't see any grounds for having that level of confidence that he can deliver what he appears to be offering.
I'm not suggesting he can't either. Much more information is required.

Compared to most here, I'm pretty old myself and also very skeptical of things. I completely understand you skepticism and I would also like to hear more details. I would just hate to see the trustees and council say no just because they are unsure of what his methods will be. I'm inclined to say yes to Daniel's proposal mainly because of the complete lack of communication with the Gentoo community and lack of suggestions for improvements. Sure, there may have been some posts on a few mailing lists, or even some chatter on irc. The most effective means of communication is via the Gentoo front page and the GWN. Both of which appear to be on permanent hiatus.

ps · Post by ps » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:57 am

NeddySeagoon,

I hear you, and I understand. But it seems to me that there is going to have to be some level of trust somewhere.

I'm a supernoob, and I'm reading about lots of conflict. The tech side seems to be overburdened, at least in some parts - portage-tools, sparc, GWN.....

I don't know what went on there in the past. But there seems to be some issues with Daniel - some mistrust or something. I don't know the facts. I do know that we (people in general) are more sensitive than we would like to be, and we don't heal as quickly as we would like to heal.

Maybe some sincere apologies are required somewhere too. Hopefully someone is going to trust someone with something somewhere.

ps

Unne · Post by **Unne** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:08 am

I'm largely in favor of benevolent dictatorship. I'm largely uneducated as to the details of this situation (which is why it's good that my opinion, like most of our opinions in this thread, isn't going to matter much to anyone) but logically someone who ran the distro for a good while and helped it to prosper in his time is likely to be at least as good as anyone else to run it again.

The distro does seem to be working fine and I still love to use it, but at the same time it often seems to be falling apart at the seams or grinding to a halt in certain areas (no GWN, lack of frontpage updates, frontpage redesign disaster, package manager battles, developer exodus or at least perceived exodus, the foundation expiring and trustees quitting(?), horrible lack of communication, etc.). It'd be nice to have one voice to either motivate and direct things to be done, or to make a decision where decisions can't be reached by consensus. The decisions might not please everyone, but any sometimes decision is better than no decision.

StifflerStealth · Post by **StifflerStealth** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:30 am

*puts politician voice on*
If you elect me as President of the Trustees, I promise to pull some strings and get this legal challenge solved within my first week. The documentation would be filed on time every year and we would never need to go through this again. Then we can start to rebuild the trust with the Gentoo Linux user base. The user base may have some issues of trust with the current Trustees because of lack of communication. I would have a page set up that would explain all motives of the Trustees and other going-ons. Communication and information will be key. Gentoo developers will work hand-in-hand together and if disputes were to come along, I would personally sit down with all parties to try to work anything. Users could come to me directly if they had issues. After that, I will claim to have no knowledge of who hacked the Gentoo Linux Forums, but I will swear it was Debian and we will declare war on them. The citizens of the Debian community will happy with our occupation and it shouldn't take too long to oust the current Debian leaders and replace them with our own people. The occupation should only take a few months, but we will be welcomed with open arms. If anyone tries to oust me as president, I would have no problem with a martial law.

So elect me for a new tomorrow where there will be other distro but Gentoo ... literally.

/Joke

Sorry. Someone had to poke fun at the whole wanting to be president thing. Hope this makes some laugh.

marcion · Post by **marcion** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:38 am

Where is the option for Ciaran McCreesh or Cowboyneal?

How about Gentoo becomes a the apt-source version of Ubuntu?

Oh the post is not a joke? Well let's vote yes anyway for a laugh,,,

wolfden · Post by **wolfden** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:11 am

This thread will end in disaster

We need more discussion on helping and being positive for production. Do you see anyone else posting help? Do you see anyone else posting ideas? The negativity is all over the web and within the community. Leaders are saying Gentoo is not dying, we are changing. I believe Gentoo will live, but at what costs if something isn't done? You have developers and users leaving and if you have followed along, the reasons for some of them leaving should never have happened.

It's been a long time coming, sooner or later you can't hide the alarms.

ps · Post by ps » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:44 am

marcion wrote:Where is the option for Ciaran McCreesh or Cowboyneal?

How about Gentoo becomes a the apt-source version of Ubuntu?

Oh the post is not a joke? Well let's vote yes anyway for a laugh,,,

I'm not sure if I understand.

apt-get vs emerge

Ok. do this:

Install a .deb distro (no disrespect intended)
then do:

Code: Select all

echo "alias emerge='apt-get' " >> .bashrc

m.s.w · Post by **m.s.w** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:04 am

I am the one who was called here "OMGZOR, Drobbins is back and s@v3s Gent00!!"

Sure, everybody may not care about what is going on with Gentoo as long as "emerge -uD world" is doing something. But it is wise to watch for the future. I think, that for a long time people know that there is a problem with Gentoo. We don't exactly know what kind of problem but we all see it and feel it. This information about Gentoo Foundation is just another bad sign, another symptom. In my opinion even if Mr. Robbins offer will not be accepted, his offer will be something that pushed people to actually do something about the situation.
Answering "NO" to Mr. Robins offer " without making real changes in the way things are going on with Gentoo means that somebody just wants Gentoo to go down. There are many talented developers who can still do some work, but this is more serious that that.

Frodo42 · Post by **Frodo42** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:18 am

I have just been looking at bit through all of this and am wondering about one thing.
It seems to me that there is not going to be a meeting of the Gentoo Council until sometime in February and Daniel has set a deadline at the 18th of January to his offer.

I also want to have some kind of answer to this offer soon. If the trustees want to pursue this transition plan, they need to let me know within the next 7 days - by Friday, January 18th, 2008 at the latest. If you want my help, I'd like to get things back on track soon. If you don't want me to take back the reigns of Gentoo, that is totally OK with me - just please let me know soon so I can focus on other things.

Is there something I am missing here or is this thing otherwise almost certainly doomed to go past the deadline and therefore probably not happen

I hope that an answer like "this will be treated on the coming Gentoo Council meeting on [put in correct date]" is good enough for Daniel ... I fear it isn't and I kind of understand him if he is a bit fed up with bureaucracy from the current Gentoo council ... seems to me that is one of the major things we would be able to fight with Daniel back at the helm.

Frodo42 · Post by **Frodo42** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:30 am

ryker wrote:Digg this thread so more people find out about it and participate in the discussion.

Vote this submission up on the slashdot firehose with the same reasoning (no I didn't post it ... I was about to make a post to /. when I found this one that looked pretty much exactly like what I was going to post).

timhoppen · Post by **timhoppen** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:35 am

Read the blog posts,
http://blog.funtoo.org/search/label/gentoo

Granted not all of them are about this, but it isn't too hard to scroll past. It looks like this took him by surprise just like it did with the users.

Also, did anyone else notice that gentoo.org hasn't had anything posted on the main page since last October 15th? That in itself suggests that things aren't being maintained on the "administration" end as well as they could be. I noticed that months ago, but thought nothing of it and forgot about it. I only searched for (and found) this thread after reading the entire blog sequence.

I never thought that I would make a forum account for a reason like this, but I guess that if I'm not doung it for myself, I might as well do it for the good of the community.

Have a good one all!

Bluespear · Post by **Bluespear** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:20 am

timhoppen wrote:
Also, did anyone else notice that gentoo.org hasn't had anything posted on the main page since last October 15th? That in itself suggests that things aren't being maintained on the "administration" end as well as they could be. I noticed that months ago, but thought nothing of it and forgot about it. I only searched for (and found) this thread after reading the entire blog sequence.

I sounds like something is being prepared on gentoo-dev, but after 3 month, it's time to do something... react slow, die fast

psomas wrote: actually,i think he said something on gentoo-dev irc channel...
and i suppose that the trusteers have been informed...

If they are not aware, it wouldn't be surprising according to what they let happen to the foundation and the lack of reaction.

Paapaa wrote:This is exactly why we need more info before these "OMGZOR, Drobbins is back and s@v3s Gent00!!". I didn't even know we had a problem in the first place. So first we should know the plans of present Gentoo Foundation staff. And what happens if they do nothing. Etc.

I think there are enough proof of problems, even as a user: no 2007.1, no up to date mainpage, flamware on mailing list (perhaps it has always been the case), posts about foundation status from users/dev, and no informations.

bunder · Post by **bunder** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:58 am

oh boy... so now someone leaked it to slashdot...

xming · Post by **xming** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:59 am

I starting following (not using) Enoch closely back in the days, because I like the ways drobbins explained that they would be. In 2002 I finally switched to Gentoo and never left. I have even converted 5 of so Sparc64 from Solaris to Gentoo at work in production, and slowly converting some x86 to Gentoo and using them as server. Now I use Xen + Gentoo for work and at home.

Things have changed a lot since drobbins left, I guess Gentoo misses vision/motivation and got very slack. Now if you want the "bleeding edge" it's either super unstable or you can to hunt down the ebuilds from overlays or just do it yourself.

Drobbins, I welcome you back. Please give us the Gentoo back that it was meant to be.

Grahammm · Post by **Grahammm** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:07 am

If the foundation and trustees are not "delivering the goods", why not get rid of them and let the (elected) council run things. Gentoo is a community distribution, so let it be run by the community.

Should the Gentoo trustees accept Daniel Robbins offer?

Should the Gentoo trustees accept Daniel Robbins offer?

Problem? What problem?

Re: Problem? What problem?

Don't know exactly what is going on?

Re: Don't know exactly what is going on?