State of the art install possible now?

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Gentoo Server · Post by **Gentoo Server** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:10 pm

I didnt install gentoo for a long time so here is my question is it possible now to install gentoo somehow in a mordern way like other distro or is this strange "read that install manual and type what you read " still valid?

scootersmk · Post by **scootersmk** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:22 pm

The method gentoo uses for install is a good way to custumize and learn about how your system works. It may seem very strange to somebody who has never done it before. But, I would recomend you give it a try. The install documentation is really good and if you run into any trouble there are plenty of people on the forums and on #gentoo that are more than willing to help you.

Gentoo Server · Post by **Gentoo Server** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:41 pm

well I have to admit that the install is working when you have a second screen with the gentoo install manual on it

bu tI have to repeat this way of install is way out of time

I understand this "learn from basics" approach but this should be optional

JohnDoe · Post by **JohnDoe** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:42 pm

Gentoo Server wrote:is it possible now to install gentoo somehow in a mordern way like other distro or is this strange "read that install manual and type what you read " still valid?

It is said in the installation instructions "Gentoo is a fast, modern metadistribution with a clean and flexible design."

Gentoo is unlike a regular distribution. The point on Gentoo is to make all the choices and fine-tune the system for your hardware. The point of Gentoo is not to have a beautiful installation procedure with everything standardized. For that, you can have any of the other distributions. If you want Gentoo is because you want to work in order to have a optimized system, not because you do not want to have any work done. For that... install SuSE or RedHat...

Gentoo Server wrote:I understand this "learn from basics" approach but this should be optional

since you have already replied when I ended the upper part. What's the point in installing Gentoo if you are not going to work on it? There is no need for Gentoo if it is just to be as any other distribution.

vdboor · Post by **vdboor** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:06 pm

Gentoo Server wrote:well I have to admit that the install is working when you have a second screen with the gentoo install manual on it

If you already have a linux system installed, you can work from an xterm, with chroot. Keep mozilla open for the possible problems. Before I realised this was possible, I tried to print the manual. Seams like a reasonable alternative to me.

(edit: And well, there is always 'links' and a second virtual terminal you can use.)

Gentoo Server · Post by **Gentoo Server** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:48 am

i think teh goal should be a noob should be able to install gentoo without a screen with the install manual

cyrillic · Post by **cyrillic** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:03 am

Gentoo Server wrote:i think teh goal should be a noob should be able to install gentoo without a screen with the install manual

One of the best things about Gentoo is that it doesn't let you stay a noob very long.

JohnDoe · Post by **JohnDoe** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:16 am

My opinion is quite the opposite. I think a newbie should read the file. I used links and another virtual terminal to do the settings.

The point on goind into a Gentoo install was on the first point to make a lite system, to make a server (I don't even have X installed) and the other point was to learn a few more things about linux.

If you use a graphical system to choose the options for you, you won't learn a thing. Besides, if you are doing a stage 1 install you have to choose all the flags you want in make.conf

Using a graphical install most of the users wouldn't even understand what they'd have to do.

Compiling the kernel is a important part of Gentoo while the other distributions have it pre-compiled. The work to be done in the kernel is far beyond a complete begginer would want to now.

Gentoo is for you to optimize the system. The stage 3 install is there fr a begginer. Any user that wants to use it effectively does the stage 1 install. It enables you to define what and how to compile it. I used in my make.conf the options march=pentium3 because that's what I'll be using. It doesn't make any sense to let a beginner define this file. But I want to do it. For a begginer, as I said before, there are other kinds of distribution that are more easily installed and configured. They should start by those.

GentooBox · Post by **GentooBox** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:00 am

No... there is not a installer like SuSe or Redhat, but there is something called GLIS, Gentoo Linux Install Script or something like that.

search and you shall find.

i think the they have a sourceforge site.. something like glis.sourceforge.net

The Public · Post by **The Public** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:03 am

I am definitely a linux noob, and even after installing Mandrake, I realized that I still didn't know enough to install new modules for my hardware.

I've learned more about linux in the last week trying to install gentoo (I haven't got it working yet) than I did actually using Mandrake for several months.

On the other hand, Linux is still a side project until I get up to speed, and I do all of my computing for my work (I am an architecture student) on either Mac or Windows. So I have the luxury of not depending on Linux.

In theory, I am all about open-source, and I would love to be able to say that I used nothing but Linux on a project. Unfortunately, the software functionality is just not there yet. The Gimp isn't quite Photoshop, Blender isn't quite 3dStudioMax or Maya. I'm haven't even got into CAD or Web Development applications on Linux yet. Someday, though. Someday.

But I digress ... Gentoo for me has been all about learning. And from what I hear, it's pretty good when you get it running too.

hielvc · Post by **hielvc** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:18 am

It is really amatter of taste, some people like fords some chevy's some hondas. Gentoo is a, SORT OF, (NO DANG FLAMES PLEACE) automated Linux From scratch system. If you just want easy insatll and bang use it theres windows, Mandrake, Suse..... which dont require, that you learn the workings of the OS to use. Thats fine. If you like to tinker and understand why you got that blue screen of death, why your keyboard acts like its not connected etc then Gentoo or LFS even slack, to a lesser extant, help you learn the OS. There are truly good people, I think, who dont care about the OS. They do know their word processor inside out, and can get spreadsheets to look like a billing forms or just det there email. That doesnt really thrill me. I like cussin at my d**m box and trying to fix it. I also sit and watch defrag and wonder "why did they do that way", a sure sing of no life

To sum this up "Diferent strokes for differant folks"

hielvc

JohnDoe · Post by **JohnDoe** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:23 am

The Public wrote:Blender isn't quite 3dStudioMax or Maya.

But I digress ... Gentoo for me has been all about learning. And from what I hear, it's pretty good when you get it running too.

If what you work on is Maya, then you should know that Maya has a Linux version.

You can see in the Alias Wavefront site:
Maya requires one of the following operating systems:

Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional (Service Pack 2 or higher)
SGI® IRIX® 6.2.15
RedHat Linux® 7.3 or 8.0
Apple® Mac® OS X 10.2.4 or higher

For the other programs, you agree with you. Same with me. I'm a Chemistry student. While in some areas of chemistry there are a few programs, the most general programs, like for making molecular models don't have a linux version. I'm still obligated to use Windows.

Aboute the installation of Gentoo... I didn't find it any difficult. I posted only one question regarding a problem with a second ethernet card in the system and I managed to solve the problem even before I had any answer in the forum.

If you have some lights of linux (1 used linux for a year for everything expect one or two programs chemistry related) and follow the installation procedure reading everything and making sure you understood it's hard to fail the installation. Some steps might be harder like the kernel configuration, if you are not sure of what your hardware is, but the genkernel is there to help you. Once you started your system you may see which modules is the kernel using and choose only those when they refer to a certain type of hardware.

vdboor · Post by **vdboor** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:39 pm

The Public wrote:The Gimp isn't quite Photoshop

I'm not quite familiar with both tools, so I just quote what a friend of mine told me:

Right now he uses gimp for everything, even on Windows. He told me that once you're familiar with the way gimp works (because it's quite different; creating shapes with selections, etc) you're able to work a lot faster with it. He also managed to convert his girlfriend (who is a graphical designer) from photoshop to gimp, and nowadays she uses gimp exclusively.

Just a matter of taste perhaps, but perhaps it's worth to consider gimp as a real alternative. I wasn't really happy with gimp either, but his story convinced me to buy a book about the gimp.

oh, and take a look at gimp-1.3, because it works a lot better then 1.2.

JohnDoe · Post by **JohnDoe** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:17 pm

I forgot to talk about that either. Although I never used Photoshop (so I can't compare it to Gimp) I used to work (personally) with Corel Photopaint. In some uses of Gimp I've made after changing to Linux (since I'm not a designer I don't need these tools very often) it has never let me down.

The biggest problem is that in universities you learn how to use Photoshop without worrying about its price. My sister is studying architecture and she has to use 3DS Max, Photoshop, Corel Draw, Macromedia Flash and others. Come on... does anyone really believes that students can pay all this software? Some might say, the university has licenses for those programs. Sure it does, but the computers aren't enough for every student. They need those programs at home.

If the universities used Gimp and developed the bits and pieces that they miss in it open source software would have alternatives for Photoshop, and others. But people still prefer to use illegal software...

vdboor · Post by **vdboor** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:51 pm

JohnDoe wrote:My sister is studying architecture and she has to use 3DS Max, Photoshop, Corel Draw, Macromedia Flash and others. Come on... does anyone really believes that students can pay all this software?

(..)

If the universities used Gimp and developed the bits and pieces that they miss in it open source software would have alternatives for Photoshop, and others. But people still prefer to use illegal software...

well said

people who have the ability/capability to contribute code to these programs shouldn't be waiting, nor complaining..

If you're not a programmer, I hope you can convince people to contribute to these programs.

Every time I see a big program like kdevelop, quanta, kword I really wonder how we accomplish these things.. after all, it's all free software. But it's a wonderful piece of art., come'on which OS has a 3D modeller installed by default, and about 30 addictive games in it's entertainment section? ..besides linux with kde 3.1.4 I haven't seen much else.

NewBlackDak · Post by **NewBlackDak** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:33 pm

vdboor wrote:
The Public wrote:The Gimp isn't quite Photoshop
I'm not quite familiar with both tools, so I just quote what a friend of mine told me:

Right now he uses gimp for everything, even on Windows. He told me that once you're familiar with the way gimp works (because it's quite different; creating shapes with selections, etc) you're able to work a lot faster with it. He also managed to convert his girlfriend (who is a graphical designer) from photoshop to gimp, and nowadays she uses gimp exclusively.

Just a matter of taste perhaps, but perhaps it's worth to consider gimp as a real alternative. I wasn't really happy with gimp either, but his story convinced me to buy a book about the gimp.

oh, and take a look at gimp-1.3, because it works a lot better then 1.2.

It's not always a matter of taste. We're a printing shop, and Gimp simply doesn't support working with CMYK color. This forces people to buy a PC/Mac and Adobe products. It burned my ass as someone who loves Linux and open-source to tell a customer that they can't give us work designed in Gimp. Maybe I should make time to hack the GIMP source to allow CMYK and tagged ICC profiles.

Gentoo Server · Post by **Gentoo Server** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:37 am

yesterday I tried to install gentoo on my notebook and although it woked (less eth0)

overall the gentoo install is pure crap compared to any modern OS

jaska · Post by **jaska** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:40 pm

If you don't like it then use something else, simple as that

GentooBox · Post by **GentooBox** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:55 pm

Gentoo Server wrote:yesterday I tried to install gentoo on my notebook and although it woked (less eth0)

overall the gentoo install is pure crap compared to any modern OS

no, its geeky and pure goodies

i love the way gentoo installations is.
you can edit everything.

if you dont like it, then install fedora or any other lameass installer distro.

JohnDoe · Post by **JohnDoe** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:00 pm

Gentoo Server wrote:overall the gentoo install is pure crap compared to any modern OS

Overall, if you know what you're doing, Gentoo system will be much more fine tuned for your hardware than any other carppy modern OS

You have to understand that everything is about choices... If you don't want to have the work to make Gentoo system working choose any other distro... Even better, stick with Microsoft... it already came with your computer when you bought it so why bother installing something else...

The (as you say) crappy installation enabled me to choose the make flags for my sistem as well as define the architecture to optimize the system. Might not be good to you but since I've installed Gentoo on a server without X I don't see any utility on having my OS compile anything with X support... I'm glad I could define everything.

pollymorf · Post by **pollymorf** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:08 pm

JohnDoe wrote: Using a graphical install most of the users wouldn't even understand what they'd have to do.

Im know exactly what im doing (GRUB is the ONLY exeption), though sometimes like in the install guide i dont know why im doing it. Sunce the install-guide isnt too clear about how to use the GRP (i dont need to use the other stages) im failing.

btw, see my question "dont understand the install-guide"...

Gentoo is a good way to learn Linux, but the installation is enough to scare people away...
I think you should offer theposibility to use an Anaconda-like installation for those who want to learn what Linux is all about and a "hard" installation for those who know and maybe wants to learn more...

JohnDoe · Post by **JohnDoe** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:20 pm

pollymorf wrote:Gentoo is a good way to learn Linux, but the installation is enough to scare people away...
I think you should offer theposibility to use an Anaconda-like installation for those who want to learn what Linux is all about and a "hard" installation for those who know and maybe wants to learn more...

I've been using RedHat (8 and 9) for a bit more than a year. After that I came to Gentoo. I've been learning a few things in the last year and I managed to install Gentoo in my first real try.

The Guide is good enough to guide a Gentoo newbie. What anything does is easily understandable if you have some knowledge of linux programs.

If you can read english well enough to understand it and you read the guide step by step you can make it without any problem. But, if it's your first Gentoo install and you are alreadt skipping parts of the guide... let me warn you, it won't work. When I did that, I couldn't even understand where to put the stage talballs (I had, without my knowledge, skipped the partition making part

). Read everything. If you don't understand any particular part, ask here or in your natural language forum. There will be many people here trying to help you.

Enjoy Gentoo...

pilla · Post by **pilla** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:37 pm

Please don't start a flamewar, or I'll have to lock the thread.

JohnDoe · Post by **JohnDoe** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:51 pm

I'm not seeing it as a flamewar. I was honestly replying with my opinion and tried not to make it flamed. The part where I talked about crap was in irony with GentooBox. I think he didn't take it as an offense.

But I'm goind on christmas holidays today so I won't be answering anything soon. So if I were the one flaming, you don't need to close it

pilla · Post by **pilla** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:03 pm

JohnDoe wrote: But I'm goind on christmas holidays today so I won't be answering anything soon. So if I were the one flaming, you don't need to close it

It was a general warning.

State of the art install possible now?

State of the art install possible now?

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