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Stu L Tissimus
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn... I would SO go to the Xfree team if I knew how to do anything with it... o_O

However, I really do not understand why it is so hard for them to just edit XDirectFB a bit to make it well-implemented into X11.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there were any major drastic changes to x there would be a lot of problems with breaking compatability with programs that use it. Making it backwards compatable is essentail and tough.

I am happy with x but it is, unfortunately, falling behind everything else. When more skilled developers realize this there will be a greater effort to foward its progress but until then we use what we have.

If you have any serious problems your bestbet would be to go learn how you can help it or forks.

And IMHO its performance is fine but needs to be updated in features and leave them optional so it can continue its performance on older systems at the admins choosing.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

charlieg wrote:
The problem is not that XFree sucks, it's that XFree development is neglected. (Look at the non-progress of Xouvert...)

The non-progress of Xouvert was because of personal problems that suddenly started haunting the main developer.

charlieg wrote:
Gnome, KDE, GNU/Linux, and many other projects have 100s of hackers working furiously on them. Meanwhile, a team of 6 who at best are half-active are left to put together XFree86. They do a damned good job with what little resources they have available.

I personally sortof dislike the XFree86 core team.. they could be a fun lot for all I care, their project is way too restricted. That's one of the things that keeps people from contributing.

charlieg wrote:
Don't like it? Fork it and improve it. Xouvert are trying to do that and finding out just how much fucking work is involved and the Xouvert team are probably appreciating how good the XFree86 team is.

Xouvert is NOT a fork. It's a development branch. One of it's purposes is to attract more people to X development and the idea is to eventually merge (most) of the changes back into XFree86. If it turns out to be a fork later on (XFree86 not accepting patches) then so be it.

Stu L Tissimus wrote:
Damn... I would SO go to the Xfree team if I knew how to do anything with it... o_O

That's another problem that keeps people from contributing: People often quickly back away from the huge code and (IMO) weird directory structure. (well, atleast the names aren't that obvious to me)
That's also one of Xouvert's goals to improve on that. Let's see what happens.

Stu L Tissimus wrote:
However, I really do not understand why it is so hard for them to just edit XDirectFB a bit to make it well-implemented into X11.

XDirectFB doesn't really have the best translucency out there either if you ask me. It displays windows _completely_ translucent and doesn't allow the application itself to adjust the look. What I was thinking is more of an alpha layer. That way windows can take care of translucency themselves and you can leave shadow beneath windows to the window manager for example.
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Stu L Tissimus
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, hey, for now, XDirectFB is fine for me... Although an alpha layer would be greatly appreciated.

Now, a question... With those other versions of X, what are the advantages?
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GenKreton
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the larger problem than x is XFree86 as mentioned, but unlike x, there are reasonable alternatives to xfree86 like GNUStep.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stu L Tissimus wrote:
Now, a question... With those other versions of X, what are the advantages?

Hopefully attract more developers.

GenKreton wrote:
I think the larger problem than x is XFree86 as mentioned, but unlike x, there are reasonable alternatives to xfree86 like GNUStep.

GNUStep is an "application development framework". (ripped from the site)
It is NOT a windowing system.
The problem also isn't that XFree86 is X, because X is just the protocol it's based on and it's not necessary to modify that at all. The X protocol will last for another while I think.
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shm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GenKreton wrote:
I think the larger problem than x is XFree86 as mentioned, but unlike x, there are reasonable alternatives to xfree86 like GNUStep.


Hah, that's curious, since GNUStep's main platform ATM is xfree86 8O
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

charlieg wrote:
The problem is not that XFree sucks, it's that XFree development is neglected. (Look at the non-progress of Xouvert...)

Gnome, KDE, GNU/Linux, and many other projects have 100s of hackers working furiously on them. Meanwhile, a team of 6 who at best are half-active are left to put together XFree86. They do a damned good job with what little resources they have available.


That's not the whole story however. KDE, GNOME, and Linux are extremely open communities. For example, a few months ago, I sent the kde development mailing list a patch to compile cleanly with the then new gcc 3.3. A few days later, I received a KDE CVS account. GNOME works quite similarly, most likely. Linux isn't exactly quite the same (no CVS-type culture), but it's still open nonetheless.

But, XFree86, historically has NOT been open at all. Even now, CVS access is denied to potential hackers, and hell, even people quite proficient with the code (look at the recent cygwin debacle, and even fucking Keith Packard, who was probably the most well known xfree86 hacker, not having access for a long time)

I think the xfree86 software isn't bad at all, but it's development process is a remenant of the old-UNIX propetiary culture. It's changed for the better recently, but its not enough.

Now, the problem with the community based replacements to X is that they don't have enough qualified developers. This is why displaced xfree86 developers, like Keith Packard, Jim Gettys, and the Cygwin/Xfree86 crew need to make their own fork. Keith Packard was VERY close to doing it months ago, but I think he decided against it at that time.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-LiTe` wrote:
<snip>

I personally sortof dislike the XFree86 core team.. they could be a fun lot for all I care, their project is way too restricted. That's one of the things that keeps people from contributing.

<snip>


Why would they restrict it? I would assume that if it was more open, then there would be far more development and XFree86 would be at a far more advanced stage.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aurora wrote:

Why would they restrict it? I would assume that if it was more open, then there would be far more development and XFree86 would be at a far more advanced stage.


From the Xouvert FAQ -

Quote:
The XFree86 project has a corporate structure that legally prevents it from being as open as the current developers would like. For instance, XFree86 Inc has signed some NDA's with various vendors. This requires that some developement discussion must take place in private to prevent violating the NDA's.
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shm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aurora wrote:
G-LiTe` wrote:
<snip>

I personally sortof dislike the XFree86 core team.. they could be a fun lot for all I care, their project is way too restricted. That's one of the things that keeps people from contributing.

<snip>


Why would they restrict it? I would assume that if it was more open, then there would be far more development and XFree86 would be at a far more advanced stage.


Because Xfree86 is a old project. It still has vestigies of the old UNIX past where much development of large open source projects was done behind closed doors.

Linux, KDE, and GNOME changed all of that for large open source projects however. Linux always had the open hacker culture, where a lot of people send patches and contribute. KDE has always been a free ranging meritocracy, but where barriers to entering are virtually nil, and GNOME has been a merticocracy/democracy mix, with the GNOME foundation and all.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is true shm. This is what I was referring to by barrier of entry and tightly controlled by certain individuals.

As for my statement regarding x11 apps on max os: It may be possible to use x11 apps on osx, however, as far as I know, there is some x11 still there. In other words, to run an x11 app, you will need some form of x11 whether it is stand alone or emulation or whatever. My statement was that you cannot run x11 app on osx and that is true. You need some x11 stuff to make the app work. This may be possible or desirable for you, but the app is still not native to osx.

Even though transparency is cool, there are many other things that xfree has yet to implement that have been in other systems (like windows) for a while now. I think those that are controlling the pace and direction of xfree development dont care so much for these features so they are in no rush to implement them.

Honestly, I think the best solution is for a good fork of xfree that will be supported by projects such as gnome and kde and that would have some help from companies like lindows that depend on having a viable desktop alternative that would steal windows users and bring them over to linux. I have a hard time believing that an xfree fork with the support I mentioned would not be able to reach close to expectations fairly quickly.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iamarug wrote:

Even though transparency is cool, there are many other things that xfree has yet to implement that have been in other systems (like windows) for a while now.


hmmm..... like?

Quote:
This may be possible or desirable for you, but the app is still not native to osx.


Well, X11 is as native to MacOSX as Aqua-based or Carbon-based apps are. Apple's implementation of X is pretty damn polished. Unlike any version of X11 I've seen in Linux or Windows, there is no "X" application. Applications that use X libraries communicate directly with Quartz just like Cocoa apps do. In that respect, it's even better than Carbon.

Quote:
Honestly, I think the best solution is for a good fork of xfree that will be supported by projects such as gnome and kde and that would have some help from companies like lindows that depend on having a viable desktop alternative that would steal windows users and bring them over to linux.


Perhaps that is already happening. Already the freedesktop.org folks have started maintaining a copy of most of what was xfree86 (and split it up and such) in their own CVS tree. Keith Packard and Jim Gettys are working on that tree. Freedesktop hosts the XDG (X Desktop Group), of which many KDE and GNOME developers participate (so far, they've come up with the desktop-file standard (kde 1.x/gnome 2.x), icon theme standard (kde 2.x/gnome 2.x), menu standard (kde 3.2/gnome 2.6), EWMH standard (kde 2.x/gnome 2.x), dbus (kde 4.x?, gnome 3.x?), and many more)

http://x2.freedesktop.org/bin/view/Software/xserver
http://x2.freedesktop.org/bin/view/Software/xlibs
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:21 pm    Post subject: Ideal windowing system Reply with quote

There is a far better way to implement network transparency than is done in X. Instead of providing a socket interface, you provide a graphics handle. The application paints to the graphics handle. If the application is local, this graphics handle basically is the graphics context in the composition engine. This makes it extremely fast.

If the application is being accessed over the network, the graphics handle causes calls to be wrapped into a protocol, sent across a socket, unwrapped at the far end and painted to the graphics context in a similar way. Build this in at the core with vector calls and built-in text rendering and you have yourself a very decent window system...

If anyone is interested, this is basically how the GLX extension to X works already. GLX doesn't perform well over networks because there's too much information in a typical opengl screen for the network to keep up. However, with a typical window this is much less of a problem.

Your composition engine has to be good too: it has to do arbitrary scaling and deformations of windows. It has to do rotation and alpha channeling. The thing is, we already have a working infrastructure for this kind of thing under Linux in the shape of OpenGL.

Believe me, if I had more time I'd be writing this window system right now, writing a GDK port so that GTK/Gnome apps would work seemlessly, finding someone to write a QT port and writing a rootless X server for the rest. But unfortunately I don't ;).
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since this is not a support issue, but rather a discussion about X, I'm moving the thread from Desktop to Gentoo Chat.

Erik
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sry for posting this in the wrong forum.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

charlieg wrote:
Why are y'all bitchin' and complainin' about XFree?

It's developed by a small team of volunteers who all have jobs and code in their spare time.


Yes. So?

Quote:
Gnome, KDE, GNU/Linux, and many other projects have 100s of hackers working furiously on them. Meanwhile, a team of 6 who at best are half-active are left to put together XFree86. They do a damned good job with what little resources they have available.


They brought that on to themself. Back when Keith Packard was kicked from Cfree-team, I followed their mailinglist. There I saw David Wexelblat (one of the founders of Xfree) flame Keith. Now, we all know that Keith was propably the greatest Xfree hacker there was. He was responsible (among others) for Render-extension and Fontconfig. And he was kicked out. Now, David Wexelblat is a member of their core-team. What does he do these days? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Well, he does lurk in the mailinglist (and flame KP), but other than that, nothing. He doesn't hack Xfree anymore, hell he doesn't even USE Xfree anymore! By his own admission he said that he uses Windows these days, and not Xfree!

Keith Packard, the greatest and most passionate Xfree-hacker there is, gets kicked out, while deadbeats like David Wexelblat are members of the core-team. Hmmmmmm....

Quote:
and the Xouvert team are probably appreciating how good the XFree86 team is.


"Good"? debatable. SEVERAL people related to Xfree have complained that the developement-process is slow, closed, ineffective.

Quote:
If the community put XFree a little higher up on the priority list then it would move forward and move forward fast.


People want Xfree to kick ass. But unfortunately the Xfree-team has no intentions of changing their habits. What did we get from the Keith Packard-incident? Well, we got bi-weekly CVS-snapshots and a mission-statement. Whoopee!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's very dissapointing to think one of the most important parts of Linux is so neglected and slow-growing... :?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aurora wrote:
It's very dissapointing to think one of the most important parts of Linux is so neglected and slow-growing... :?


XFree is not part of Linux. If it was, I'd have to start searching for a new OS.

Linux is the kernel, damnit! The GUI does not belong there! Heck, even the CUI needn't be there! Just a framebuffer API is enough for userspace implementations!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zhenlin wrote:
Aurora wrote:
It's very dissapointing to think one of the most important parts of Linux is so neglected and slow-growing... :?


XFree is not part of Linux. If it was, I'd have to start searching for a new OS.

Linux is the kernel, damnit! The GUI does not belong there! Heck, even the CUI needn't be there! Just a framebuffer API is enough for userspace implementations!


Haha...okay how about this:

It's so dissapointing that one of the most important parts of the Linux-GUI experience is so neglected and slow-growing. ;)
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zhenlin wrote:
Linux is the kernel, damnit! The GUI does not belong there! Heck, even the CUI needn't be there! Just a framebuffer API is enough for userspace implementations!


Well, when I talk about "Linux the OS", I just talk about "Linux". And that includes stuff like Xfree, KDE, GCC etc. etc. If I'm talking about "Linux the Kernel", I talk about "the Linux Kernel".

So yes, one could say that Xfree is part of Linux. But it is not part of the Linux Kernel
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:13 pm    Post subject: Gentoo OS Reply with quote

Evangelion wrote:
Well, when I talk about "Linux the OS", I just talk about "Linux". And that includes stuff like Xfree, KDE, GCC etc. etc. If I'm talking about "Linux the Kernel", I talk about "the Linux Kernel".

So yes, one could say that Xfree is part of Linux. But it is not part of the Linux Kernel


Or, alternatively, you could follow the FSF naming conventions which take all of the ambiguity out of the situation.

When talking about the complete operating system, such as the above quote, you could say that: XFree is a major component of modern GNU/Linux operating systems.

And if you are refering to a specific implementation of a GNU/Linux operating system, it's even easier, I don't say I run Gentoo Linux, or Gentoo GNU/Linux, I just say I run Gentoo. I guess this becomes an issue when in the future you have Gentoo GNU/Linux, Gentoo BSD, Gentoo/Cgywin, Gentoo/OSX and other such Gentoos... but that's all something to be worried about later, for now I run an operating system called Gentoo.

So if I'm "upgrading to Linux 2.6" I'm not talking about Gentoo 2.6, I'm talking about the kernel 2.6 :-)

The Gentoo Operating System: Never the same twice ;-)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there are several big hitters in XFree hacking that are dissatisfied with the way development is going, why don't they just "hijack" the code and take it in the direction they want? It is open source....it'd be nice to see XFree development keep the pace with current kernel development.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Gentoo OS Reply with quote

supernovus wrote:
Evangelion wrote:
Well, when I talk about "Linux the OS", I just talk about "Linux". And that includes stuff like Xfree, KDE, GCC etc. etc. If I'm talking about "Linux the Kernel", I talk about "the Linux Kernel".

So yes, one could say that Xfree is part of Linux. But it is not part of the Linux Kernel


Or, alternatively, you could follow the FSF naming conventions which take all of the ambiguity out of the situation.


Ummmmmm.... No. I still prefer to call it just "Linux". Why should I call it GNU/Linux, and not Qt/KDE/Xfree/GNU/Linux? GNU/Linux is not any more "correct" way os spelling than "Linux" is.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo OS Reply with quote

supernovus wrote:
Evangelion wrote:
Well, when I talk about "Linux the OS", I just talk about "Linux". And that includes stuff like Xfree, KDE, GCC etc. etc. If I'm talking about "Linux the Kernel", I talk about "the Linux Kernel".

So yes, one could say that Xfree is part of Linux. But it is not part of the Linux Kernel


Or, alternatively, you could follow the FSF naming conventions which take all of the ambiguity out of the situation.

Or, alternatively, people could stop worrying about pointless semantics because they already know what the person is trying to discuss.
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