General Feeling on GUI administration

[Metaphaze]

Progress Bar. I like progress bars. How many files left to compile. Or, (although this would be very rough estimate) count how long it takes to do one file of X lines and then guesstimate the time for (X +- N)lines over P files. Both are not perfect metrics but at least it is something. When you enter the world of GUI constant User Feedback is important.

[fp2099]

I still have nightmares with mandrake control center... you can have all the gui's you want but don't force me to take them

[standsolid]

The Unix way is to create a library that can be used by different frontends, and as long as we stick to this I'm all for it. Just make it so that if you make a qt frontend and a terminal frontend, I can make myself a gtk+ frontend by utilizing the same library with all the core functionality.

the only problem here is Qt is the reason i've started doing any kind of developing. I'm writing these tools in Qt because Qt is very portable... don't want to make just UNIX compliant tools. I'm suprised how much anti-qt sentiment there is, really . I am trying to write all of this pretty modularly so i can make a Qt console interface, but I have pretty much decided that Qt is a requirement. This doen't mean that this can change. I mean someone can write a frontend to the gimp in qt or whatever, but the way the underlying code is written, it needs GTK no matter what you do -- unless you are writing a new gimp

So, If all that a user is concerned about is that his/her configuration tool blends in well with their desktop, then anyone is free to write a GTK frontend to my tools, and I would be HAPPY to help in any way I could. I have tried programming in gtk and qt, and found qt to be a much nicer toolkit (/me ducks).

This isn't a flame to gnome, gtk, or any gtk software, so if you've taken it this way please re-read my post. it isn't meant that way. All i'm saying is i'm going to write software whos core functionality depends on Qt, and I do have my reasons.

Sorry if this changed anyones mind

[standsolid]

I still have nightmares with mandrake control center... you can have all the gui's you want but don't force me to take them

I still have nightmares too. That this was horrrid awful. My tools will follow one of the main principles of gentoo, the best principle when making tools like this

To summarize the heart of Gentoo, imagine a user sitting in front of a Linux system. What does he or she want do to? The Gentoo philosophy is to allow this user to do what he or she wants to do, without getting in the way.

So imagine a user who has no keyboard siitting in front of their gentoo computer (this is a little extreme, I kow you need a keyboard for some tasks)

The Gentoo philosophy, in a paragraph, is this. Every user has work they need to do. The goal of Gentoo is to design tools and systems that allow a user to do their work pleasantly and efficiently as possible, as they see fit. Our tools should be a joy to use, and should help the user to appreciate the richness of the Linux and free software community, and the flexibility of free software. This is only possible when the tool is designed to reflect and transmit the will of the user, and leave the possibilities open as to the final form of the raw materials (the source code.) If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy.

This is my core interface guideline, and my main argument for why I Think there should be GUI tools is because if reflects a will of the user. I now many people who want GUI administration (well, my girlfriend at least and as of this writing over 70 other people) -- and gosh dangit -- I think I can do it.

[orionrobots]

emerge webmin

Is there a portage/gentoo package admin module for Webmin? For altering use flags, merging/diffing configs etc? If not - why not?
Seriously - GUI tools could be useful- but webmin is fantastic. As long as the default package is shipped only to allow webmin log in from root console(via tunnels in ssh).

[shm]

Very nice mockups.

[ebrostig]

I was at first a bit baffeled at what kind of tools this thread was referring to.

If talking about generic admin tools of linux, I would say Webmin is a great tool in addition to what various DE's provide.

Then i read on a bit and figured out that many people were talking about Portage. As far as I know, there are already tools in Portage for that, kportage is one of them.

So, what's left?

Erik

[standsolid]

there are already tools in Portage for that [...] So, what's left?

good ones /me ducks...

/me explains
This is all in my own humble opinion, I will state that now, as so I will not be flamed to damnation ny talking smack about other projects. This is in mo way meant to speak badly of other applications or hurt development of said applications either.
All the tools that I've used, be it gentoo-specific or not, don't meet my needs in terms of user interface. The tools I am creating aren't just portage related, There are tools that will also be GNU/Linux related (like configuring, let's say, /etc/fstab or Gentoo specific like /etc/make.conf or maybe your world file). In my experience webmin isn't a graphical user interface at all... In fact it's a web interface that configures a computer. I really don't find this to be a solution to my itch. It's a great tool, but it's not ideal for administering my computer, for me (and I Think other would agree). Other tools like kportage don't have interfaces that are too friendly. For example, To do a emerge sync then an emerge world in kportage... I might as well do that sync/merge in a CLI. And why is the ebuild source pane the biggest on the screen? I can't even edit the ebuild it presents me. Kportage definitely needs work for it to be a mainstream app for installing software on a computer.


In terms of generic admin tools -- well, I honestly dont like any I've tried. The tools that I _DO_ like for system admnistration are ones like the Mac OS X system configuration. that thing is a gem. it's only problem is the complete lack of "advanced" configuration for things like samba that is pretty mush essential.

So think of my idea for GUI tools are tools like Mac OS X's system configuration -- but not inhibiting the user by limiting options that are most likely essential. I want my tools to be the last stop shop for system options, but still easy to use. Balance, my firends, balance is the key here.

As I said, I in no way want to inhibit the development of applications already in place. I think all these tools fill a need that is there -- I dont' intend on replacing any of them (except maybe kportage because development is halted). I wnat to make simple tools that an average windows migrater, or a linux guru, or a hippie mac user can be comfortable with. Sometimes the linux guru would rather fucntion form the CLI to do everything -- and I would completely support that. Sometimes a windows migrater might find gnoportage to be the best tool for them.

one of the funniest things I see when I search 'portage' on sf.net
http://sourceforge.net/search/?type_of_ ... ds=portage
there are a crapload of tools that people list that say things like "The Software Updater project aims to simplify the use of the 'emerge' process to update software from Gentoo portage." So apparently a desire is there, but there is no real progress being made (that I see) for many of these packages.

so maybe a better question would be
"What do you feel the state of GUI administration of gentoo is"
1 Perfect. I have all the tools I could ever need.
2 I can't seem to go a day without using the CLI and I hate it.
3 I can't seem to go a day without using the CLI and I love it.

or

"What is your preference of Administering gentoo"
1 CLI (nano/vi/etc-update/etc)
2 GUI Tools (kportage, gnoportage, webmin. tools areleady in place)
3 Imagineary GIU tools that don't exist yet. (list features that you want)

hm. maybe i'll do that.

[ebrostig]

Lol, I'm not going to flame you, I only do that over in OTW

Let me see if I get this correctly (pardon me, I'm an old man ):

- There are numerous GUI tools for adminstrating your Gentoo box around already.
- You don't like none of them or feel they don't fullfill your needs.
- Aim: to generate a swiss army knife GUI based configuration tool ala Mac.

Well, this is OSS after all, so go ahead and get to work

The only catch about this is that we are going to see a lot of tools based upon these criterias. I'm sure many people don't like the existing tools and have their own ideas as to how such a tool should look.

I think the question everyone who is interested in creationg such a tool should ask themselves is:
Is there so much need for another tool that it is worth the time and effort into designing and programming it rather than , let's say, creating new plugins for Webmin or other existing tools?

What will such a new tool offer other than rehashing what other tools already has. And remember, such a tools will be geared towards the endusers and not developers, right? Have you sat down with non-technical endusers and discussed what their needs are and what they want or is this just based on your own narrow needs?

Erik

[standsolid]

heh. Yeah the coolest thing about my life is I live at home, have no cschool and work < 40Hrs a week, and my girlfriend is in canada. free time is abundant. I have found projects like configforgnu (http://config4gnu.sf.net) that have goals similar to mine. I plan on using any code from them and maybe even working with them. My whole thing is making sure the gui tools are completely usable, and that they don't make the confiuration changes unusable with CLI. meaning: if I have a tool that will, say, allow editing fstab for you, the output it renders will not destroy and existing comment the user already had, it won't re-arrange the file to be unreadble, and it might even add comments of it's own to explain an option.

Another reason why I want to develop these tools is so thre can be that swss army knife for everything. I don't want to use KDE to configure Xfree86 and _____ to do something else. I want these tools to be integrated, and have the same look-and/or-feel so taht users can feel comfortable and not have to realearn a new tool. web interfaces, imo, do not do this.

Have you sat down with non-technical endusers and discussed what their needs are and what they want or is this just based on your own narrow needs?

Yes and yes. My goals are somewhat selfish in that I really want these tools -- but I also want to move a couple of friend over to linux.

As I stated eariler, I live at home. I have parents. With every piece of software I make, I have them test it out (unless it's something not meant for users). Like a tool i wrote in vb for work, I had my parents and my girlfriend test it out. guess what? that shows usability of an app. If your mom/dad can use it, and it does what they expect it to do, it's golden. On the other end of the spectrum is DEMAND complete control of my own personal system. I understand why geeks are saying they wouldn't let tools liek this touch their system. look at the windows registry, look at drakconf

I left mandrake for a reason, and that reson was adding a module for my network card didn't allow me to use drakconf anymore, If I did, it would overwrite all my settings i edited by hand. on top of that, it wouldn't let me use my net driver iin drakconf. This is only one example, but you can get the idea

I get the ideas from friends. I have some pretty computer-savvy friends and I ask "why aren't you on linux?" and they will always say "it's too hard..." etc. I tell them to try mandrake, and they install it and hate, and remove it after a couple days. Wheni show them my gentoo box, they see it, are impressed by it, so I set it up on their computer for them. They have it in their head, and I don't know why, but they like administering on windows better. one friend didn't understand etc-update.

Is there so much need for another tool that it is worth the time and effort into designing and programming it rather than , let's say, creating new plugins for Webmin or other existing tools?

Maybe. I don't like webmin at all. it's not a GUI, and it doesn't feel right. It doesn't give help where needed and I never like changing settings on my webpage via a browser, let alone my personal computer. In terms of writing modules, yeah that's a good idea, but not when the container is so undesireable.

Hell, I might even use webmin as a backend to my tools, so long as it doesn't screw the config files like most other tools imailar to it do -- i'll look into that.

Someone like me, a classic windows refugee, who has not found a set of tools good enough to let me work the way I want to, I think there is a need. I think there are hundreds of users looking for tools like these. I've asked people what tools for GUI admin are good, and i always get "webmin" back.

The tools in place for gentoo-specific administration don't work for me. I know i could write a script in about 5 minutes that could take care of it, but I really think this would help users of gentoo, or linux, feel more comfortable, and happier with their linux system.

You know, I personally use the CLI with no problems. I can get by writing bash scripts and using unix pipes to do alot of work. this is a great way to work, and I still use CLI (i'm making my gui etc-update using CLI tools mostly). I just think there is a better way. And if that better way doesn't exist, I'm going to try and make it happen.

Enough talk, off to coding!

[zez]

GUI tools would be a great thing especially considering that it will only give the user more choice in the end since the core command line utils will still exist. The concept shots look pretty nice, and I like how the interface isn't necessarily "dumbed down" as it looks fairly functional.

[ebrostig]

standsolid: Seems like you have thought it through! I'm anxiously awaiting the first release of the shiny new tool

Erik

[standsolid]

standsolid: Seems like you have thought it through! I'm anxiously awaiting the first release of the shiny new tool

Erik

I already have a siny new tool (read my sig

it still needs work, but I am open to suggestions on the work i should be doing on it

i'm also glad to have your approval ;p (whether you gave it or not)

[zez]

Hehe, nice new avatar, too, standsolid.

[georwell]

A gui would be great for one machine. But if you have ever managed 20 or more *nix servers you realize the true power of ssh, command line tools and scripts.

[sgtrock]

Standsolid;

I just ran across this thread. I checked to see if your gentoo GUI toolset was still available. I get a '404', so I'm assuming that you've either moved it , or dropped it. Are you still actively developing it?

[aaronf0]

probably been said already, but this is important:

GUI tools are nice, but dont rape the system and remove the command line.

the first thing taht comes to mind is suse. if you want to make a change that inst via gui, your screwed. leave the command line in, but it would be nice to be able to get a -uD world in portage by gui, then execute it in a terminal. and some things are just meant to be done by gui, like hardware stuff.

[Poe]

IMHO it isnt necessary.. If will be, then few peple will be use, but few will be not use

greet & sorry for my english.. :]