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steveL
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Code:
 ~ $ grep -A 1 -B 1 vm.swap /etc/sysctl.conf
# Reduce swappiness from server like 60 to 32GB RAM notebook 0
vm.swappiness=0
vm.vfs_cache_pressure=50
Note: swappiness=0 does not mean that swap is disabled. A value of 0 instructs the kernel not to initiate swap until the amount of free and file-backed pages is less than the high water mark in a zone.

Current memory state:
Code:
 ~ $ free -m

Nice info, thanks Yamakuzure; I've been wondering about that swappiness parameter for years, but never got round to investigating it.

Very nice tip. Please do feel free to follow up with caveats or more info.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:04 am    Post subject: I haven't vanished Reply with quote

Just as an update, guys... I haven't slunk off, muttering about Linux being too much trouble. I'm slowly cleaning out some workspace, gathering some old hardware, breathing life into it, etc., and will (hopefully) soon begin the process of installing Gentoo. I've also ordered a copy of the new edition of How Linux Works by Brian Ward. I'll work my way through that, as an adjunct to the process. The paper book is supposed to ship in November. But most of the chapters are already available to people who have (as I have) preordered the book. So I'm going to start reading it as soon as I get around to downloading those chapters.

I realize that it's sort of an advanced topic, but I'm wondering whether or not it's difficult to configure Gentoo as a real-time kernel version, the way that say AVLinux works. I'm thinking of building a quad core box, to run some DAW software.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:00 am    Post subject: Re: I haven't vanished Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
I realize that it's sort of an advanced topic, but I'm wondering whether or not it's difficult to configure Gentoo as a real-time kernel version, the way that say AVLinux works. I'm thinking of building a quad core box, to run some DAW software.

I don't know how exactly AVLinux works; in fact I'm not sure I've ever even read of it before, but In addition to the sys-kernel/gentoo-sources and sys-kernel/vanilla-sources, we have a bunch of various other kernel sources right off the tree, including, but not limited to the sys-kernel/rt-sources.

For quite some time now I have happily been using the patches from Con Kolivas, found in sys-kernel/ck-sources (ck-sources : All about choice !). As far as I can tell, I believe it should be very easy indeed to do what you're thinking of. Simply choose your sources, or/and patch them up yourself... it's up to you!

I imagine you might also find Gentoo Studio: Professional Audio Gentoo Workstation interesting. I actually do music myself, too, but alas, I haven't tested this out myself (yet).


Thanks for the update. ^^
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: I haven't vanished Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
I realize that it's sort of an advanced topic, but I'm wondering whether or not it's difficult to configure Gentoo as a real-time kernel version, the way that say AVLinux works. I'm thinking of building a quad core box, to run some DAW software.

I don't know how exactly AVLinux works; in fact I'm not sure I've ever even read of it before, but In addition to the sys-kernel/gentoo-sources and sys-kernel/vanilla-sources, we have a bunch of various other kernel sources right off the tree, including, but not limited to the sys-kernel/rt-sources

For quite some time now I have happily been using the patches from Con Kolivas, found in sys-kernel/ck-sources (ck-sources : All about choice !). As far as I can tell, I believe it should be very easy indeed to do what you're thinking of. Simply choose your sources, or/and patch them up yourself... it's up to you!

I imagine you might also find Gentoo Studio: Professional Audio Gentoo Workstation interesting. I actually do music myself, too, but alas, I haven't tested this out myself (yet).


Thanks for the update. ^^


Thanks for that. I don't know what "realtime" tweaks have been done in AVLinux (and Ubuntu Studio, etc.) But I assume that they have to do with changing the prioritization of things, to give higher status to things like digital audio sample handling, DSP processes, etc. Maybe somebody out there knows what all can be done along these lines.

I'll take a look at Gentoo Studio. I hadn't even heard of it.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:56 am    Post subject: Re: I haven't vanished Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
I don't know what "realtime" tweaks have been done in AVLinux (and Ubuntu Studio, etc.) But I assume that they have to do with changing the prioritization of things, to give higher status to things like digital audio sample handling, DSP processes, etc. Maybe somebody out there knows what all can be done along these lines.

See here. (you don't want pulsefail if you're doing real audio.)
Quote:
I'll take a look at Gentoo Studio. I hadn't even heard of it.

Yeah audiodef will see you right; you should check out Dominique's threads on fvwm-crystal (which he maintains upstream) and getting rid of *kit; he's one of the pro-audio overlay (included in gentoo studio) long-time contributors, and does a lot of excellent audio-related work.

ISTR he said it's better not to run an rt-kernel, just have the scheduling capability in the kernel.

Though if you want specific help, you're better off starting a new thread in the Multimedia Forum, labelled with a summary of the question; you'll get many more answers like that, rather than following-up here.

HTH
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: I haven't vanished Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
I don't know what "realtime" tweaks have been done in AVLinux (and Ubuntu Studio, etc.) But I assume that they have to do with changing the prioritization of things, to give higher status to things like digital audio sample handling, DSP processes, etc. Maybe somebody out there knows what all can be done along these lines.

See here. (you don't want pulsefail if you're doing real audio.)
Quote:
I'll take a look at Gentoo Studio. I hadn't even heard of it.

Yeah audiodef will see you right; you should check out Dominique's threads on fvwm-crystal (which he maintains upstream) and getting rid of *kit; he's one of the pro-audio overlay (included in gentoo studio) long-time contributors, and does a lot of excellent audio-related work.

ISTR he said it's better not to run an rt-kernel, just have the scheduling capability in the kernel.

Though if you want specific help, you're better off starting a new thread in the Multimedia Forum, labelled with a summary of the question; you'll get many more answers like that, rather than following-up here.

HTH
steveL


Thanks. I'll get back to looking into such things, after I'm past the phase of getting comfortable with Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie,

What we all want to know is how many Gentoo learning experiences you have had so far?
Only count those where the experience is what you got just after you needed it :)

Share a few too, for those that come after you.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
OS Newbie,

What we all want to know is how many Gentoo learning experiences you have had so far?
Only count those where the experience is what you got just after you needed it :)

Share a few too, for those that come after you.


Not any. I haven't launched into it yet. I'm just thinking about it abstractly so far, as I attend to many other things (computer/LAN infrastructure upgrades, sorting of my media creation studio, completion of my electronics lab, various home/workspace remodeling projects, etc.). I probably won't get into it until after the snow flies here.

I'm lining up several things in advance of jumping into it. I plan to make a good effort to wrap my head around Gentoo and the Linux world (I'm still awaiting the arrival of How Linux Works and other books). But more important to my ambitions, I am setting myself up to take a serious stab at becoming proficient at Ruby programming, Rails and other frameworks, and brushing up on C, particularly in respects pertaining to embedded systems. I'd like to move onto an open source Unix-like platform in the process. I'd like it to be Gentoo, but will also flirt with OpenBSD. But if they prove to be too daunting, I'll just stay on OS X.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
I haven't launched into it yet. I'm just thinking about it abstractly so far, as I attend to many other things (computer/LAN infrastructure upgrades, sorting of my media creation studio, completion of my electronics lab, various home/workspace remodeling projects, etc.). I probably won't get into it until after the snow flies here.

I'm lining up several things in advance of jumping into it. I plan to make a good effort to wrap my head around Gentoo and the Linux world (I'm still awaiting the arrival of How Linux Works and other books).

You're making this way too complicated imo: all you have to do is follow the handbook.

It helps to have another machine to hand that you can use for web and IRC: chat.freenode.net #gentoo for live support as you go through the install, should you need it. (it's always useful ime.)

That will teach you more about Linux than any book could, afaic.

Still, good luck, whenever you get round to it.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
I haven't launched into it yet. I'm just thinking about it abstractly so far, as I attend to many other things (computer/LAN infrastructure upgrades, sorting of my media creation studio, completion of my electronics lab, various home/workspace remodeling projects, etc.). I probably won't get into it until after the snow flies here.

I'm lining up several things in advance of jumping into it. I plan to make a good effort to wrap my head around Gentoo and the Linux world (I'm still awaiting the arrival of How Linux Works and other books).

You're making this way too complicated imo: all you have to do is follow the handbook.

It helps to have another machine to hand that you can use for web and IRC: chat.freenode.net #gentoo for live support as you go through the install, should you need it. (it's always useful ime.)

That will teach you more about Linux than any book could, afaic.

Still, good luck, whenever you get round to it.

I'm not making this at all complicated. Why do you say that? Maybe you think that I'm making it complicated in the sense that I should be able to install Gentoo without my having to think about all the other stuff. But I'm not doing any of these things in preparation for installing Gentoo. I was just saying that I'm not in a hurry to install it, because I don't need it until such time as I dive into it for all my various reasons.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
I'm not making this at all complicated. Why do you say that? Maybe you think that I'm making it complicated in the sense that I should be able to install Gentoo without my having to think about all the other stuff.

No; just that you seem experienced enough to follow the instructions without thinking you should make them up for yourself as you go along.
Quote:
But I'm not doing any of these things in preparation for installing Gentoo. I was just saying that I'm not in a hurry to install it, because I don't need it until such time as I dive into it for all my various reasons.

That's fair enough; what neddy said ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
I'm not making this at all complicated. Why do you say that? Maybe you think that I'm making it complicated in the sense that I should be able to install Gentoo without my having to think about all the other stuff.

No; just that you seem experienced enough to follow the instructions without thinking you should make them up for yourself as you go along.


I'm not following you. But in any case, I've never been talking about potentially having any difficulty following instructions (like in the handbook). Everybody seems to be uncomfortable with the idea that I like to think about some things in a general overview way, in advance of doing things like installing stuff. Don't think for a second, that anything I'm talking about has to do with any reluctance on my part to do things like that. In my mind, the views are separate and unrelated.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
steveL wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
I'm not making this at all complicated. Why do you say that? Maybe you think that I'm making it complicated in the sense that I should be able to install Gentoo without my having to think about all the other stuff.

No; just that you seem experienced enough to follow the instructions without thinking you should make them up for yourself as you go along.


I'm not following you. But in any case, I've never been talking about potentially having any difficulty following instructions (like in the handbook). Everybody seems to be uncomfortable with the idea that I like to think about some things in a general overview way, in advance of doing things like installing stuff. Don't think for a second, that anything I'm talking about has to do with any reluctance on my part to do things like that. In my mind, the views are separate and unrelated.


OS Newbie,

It's not so much that we think you're going to have difficulty. What we're talking about is easier to do than it is to talk about. You have these questions, and I had many of the same questions, but the actual process of installing and of researching ideas from the handbook during an actual install (as I said earlier, it can take weeks if you research a bunch of stuff as curiosity dictates) makes everything much more clear.

The second install will almost certainly be done much faster, unless you keep browsing during the installs. I always do things in a way that it can take weeks because in my life interruptions are frequent.

Thinking about it in the abstract and reading things when you're not preparing an actual install, you (or I at least) tend to flip scenarios around and things get complicated.

When you write down the purposes for the current install and keep it all to just that list, things become much more clear. When you do it for a few different scenarios (several real installs) things become MUCH more clear, and you begin to see how everything interacts.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
steveL wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
I'm not making this at all complicated. Why do you say that? Maybe you think that I'm making it complicated in the sense that I should be able to install Gentoo without my having to think about all the other stuff.

No; just that you seem experienced enough to follow the instructions without thinking you should make them up for yourself as you go along.


I'm not following you. But in any case, I've never been talking about potentially having any difficulty following instructions (like in the handbook). Everybody seems to be uncomfortable with the idea that I like to think about some things in a general overview way, in advance of doing things like installing stuff. Don't think for a second, that anything I'm talking about has to do with any reluctance on my part to do things like that. In my mind, the views are separate and unrelated.


OS Newbie,

It's not so much that we think you're going to have difficulty. What we're talking about is easier to do than it is to talk about. You have these questions, and I had many of the same questions, but the actual process of installing and of researching ideas from the handbook during an actual install (as I said earlier, it can take weeks if you research a bunch of stuff as curiosity dictates) makes everything much more clear.

The second install will almost certainly be done much faster, unless you keep browsing during the installs. I always do things in a way that it can take weeks because in my life interruptions are frequent.

Thinking about it in the abstract and reading things when you're not preparing an actual install, you (or I at least) tend to flip scenarios around and things get complicated.

When you write down the purposes for the current install and keep it all to just that list, things become much more clear. When you do it for a few different scenarios (several real installs) things become MUCH more clear, and you begin to see how everything interacts.


I do appreciate your perspective. But it seems obvious to me that you don't see mine. And I don't want to be a pain about it. In a nutshell though, The things that I care to think about in an abstract way, are not things that doing installs of Gentoo will shed much light on. If you disagree with this, then either you aren't understanding my meanings, or I'm not making them clear. In either case, I ask that you not return to the suggestion that I should do installations or do anything else, in order to gain perspective on whatever it is that I'm talking about. Rather than think that such recommendations will be helpful to me, simply assume that I'll eventually come around to seeing your points (I won't, but holding on to that assumption will be a good way for you to avoid needless interactions with me).

I would surgically (individually, point by point) answer all of your points above, but that would just cause you to feel like you'd need to reply. You don't need to do so. It would be pointless. You and I live in different philosophical universes. I ask that everyone who doesn't like my inclination to talk about Gentoo/Linux philosophically in advance of becoming familiar with it, please abstain from trying to talk me out of doing so. If that's too much to ask, then I'll defer to you all and leave this forum so that my lazy-seeming abstract musings won't bother anyone.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bear with me for this one post.

As an example of what I'm talking about, I found out about the politics of various packages while installing Gentoo. I won't mention which type of package or any specific packages for fear this list might attract and be overtaken by the people who rage about this stuff.

The Gentoo Handbook concerns itself with initial system installation. This means system loggers, boot loaders, sound packages, kernel features, that sort of thing.

The handbook points out a few features differences, but the handbook was written by one or more people who may share a philosophy. So I generally first google 'system logger Linux' or something similar, see what options are available, see what the list is that Gentoo offers and then maybe google individual logging systems that the Handbook mentions by name.

When you do that, you see not only home pages (which are informative in the sense you would expect to want when installing a system) but also forum posts and mailing list archives. Web pages for a package always give glowing reviews of the package because the people who write the web page are building the product and tend to be enthusiastic about it.

The forums and mail archives are what's really interesting. You see the dates of the posts, which sort of puts things in chronological order for you. Then you see the topics/subjects, which tells you something about what people need help with, or what might be messed up. Then you read the actual posts and see arguments about why such and such feature is a good thing or bad thing, and you see comparisons about the way each "competing" product works.

You also see a lot about the way Open Source really works. It's a lot different picture than you would tend to get from product web sites.

Another thing I notice is that the Open Source license of the package somewhat determines the nature of the community surrounding a product.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Bear with me for this one post.

As an example of what I'm talking about, I found out about the politics of various packages while installing Gentoo. I won't mention which type of package or any specific packages for fear this list might attract and be overtaken by the people who rage about this stuff.

The Gentoo Handbook concerns itself with initial system installation. This means system loggers, boot loaders, sound packages, kernel features, that sort of thing.

The handbook points out a few features differences, but the handbook was written by one or more people who may share a philosophy. So I generally first google 'system logger Linux' or something similar, see what options are available, see what the list is that Gentoo offers and then maybe google individual logging systems that the Handbook mentions by name.

When you do that, you see not only home pages (which are informative in the sense you would expect to want when installing a system) but also forum posts and mailing list archives. Web pages for a package always give glowing reviews of the package because the people who write the web page are building the product and tend to be enthusiastic about it.

The forums and mail archives are what's really interesting. You see the dates of the posts, which sort of puts things in chronological order for you. Then you see the topics/subjects, which tells you something about what people need help with, or what might be messed up. Then you read the actual posts and see arguments about why such and such feature is a good thing or bad thing, and you see comparisons about the way each "competing" product works.

You also see a lot about the way Open Source really works. It's a lot different picture than you would tend to get from product web sites.

Another thing I notice is that the Open Source license of the package somewhat determines the nature of the community surrounding a product.


This is precisely the kind of stuff that I love to hear. Thank you very much for enduring my bristly nature long enough to get that across. But perhaps as an aside to the wisdom that you're imparting here, you can imagine why I like to enter into conversations like this in advance of actually doing installs. I might well have eventually come to realize the essence of what you're saying here. But I strenuously prefer to have this kind of thinking hit me in advance. Many people prefer to "learn by doing," and just jump in and get their hands dirty. I, on the other hand, have a deeply rooted need to have lots of foreplay, read every book, examine lots of people's opinions, etc. before I dive into the process of massaging bits. I find that this fits better into my normal practice of doing lots of things simultaneously, and diving in deep only when I feel well prepared.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 1997 a friend of mine gave me a copy of RH-5.1. I went ahead installing it on my 60 MHz 486DX. All documentation was in English. I knew about ten words in English, my only foreign language was German back then. I installed RH and I learned Linux and English same time. I succeeded. I even was able to patch the kernel for Gravis Ultrasound.
If I followed your ideology I should have learned English first (five years?), then Linux ... I do not think I would be here today if I did that.
In short, get your feet wet and talk less.
Oh, let me rephrase this. You are welcome here but get real.
You want to install Gentoo? Do it!
You need help? Lots of highly qualified folks here are ready to assist you.
Nobody here really wants to hear your ideas how to approach and prepare for your first install.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
In 1997 a friend of mine gave me a copy of RH-5.1. I went ahead installing it on my 60 MHz 486DX. All documentation was in English. I knew about ten words in English, my only foreign language was German back then. I installed RH and I learned Linux and English same time. I succeeded. I even was able to patch the kernel for Gravis Ultrasound.
If I followed your ideology I should have learned English first (five years?), then Linux ... I do not think I would be here today if I did that.
In short, get your feet wet and talk less.
Oh, let me rephrase this. You are welcome here but get real.
You want to install Gentoo? Do it!
You need help? Lots of highly qualified folks here are ready to assist you.
Nobody here really wants to hear your ideas how to approach and prepare for your first install.

And I don't want to hear yours about how I should think about it. People here are free to ignore this thread. It's completely voluntary to engage in it. So unless you want to take the position that talking less, and installing Gentoo before talking about it, needs to be enforced as a matter of policy, stay out of my conversation here, and go interact in some threads where your input is appreciated. I'm not talking about ideas having to do with how to approach and prepare for my first install, anyway. That seems to be hard for you to grasp.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:51 am    Post subject: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

Jaglover,

I don't think it's (all) about 'preparation for one's first Gentoo install'.

I, for one, sometimes wish I could be less of a 'jump in' and 'learn by doing (only)'.


When I'm tackling an issue with a car for example, I usually just go in as usual, but sometimes consult a reparation manual first. As cars get newer, they often have ridonkulous requirements, dependencies, if you will, to remedying an issue, and consulting the book comes in handy indeed beforehand (hello Duratec Mondeo requiring lifting the engine for wishbone replacement; some engineers been at work there!).

That is more or less the extent of 'preparation via books' I can do. I think I might have already had issues with it in school, where I felt it was difficult to have things stick in my mind. I feel this might be affecting my prolonged inability on getting into C and C++, as I read tutorials but always drop them at some point (lazy), and wont easily remember things I read and have to start from the beginning the next time. Mostly, really, that's probably about me not keeping up with it, and actually writing more code. If only it opened to me as easily as Bash did. (Just starting on that, too.)

Getting into Linux has helped a bit in that I've been hacking on Wine for example (really just hacking on it while debugging it, not exactly knowing what I'm doing: trial and error), but I wish I could really learn from reading, and actually remember it without doing it for some "$RANDOM" period of time.


I should be sleeping, but I found some wine (the liquid kind), and felt like rambling a bit, so apologies for that!

Anyblue, I would ask you, OS Newbie, to not be discouraged by some (any) members of this fine community not being interested. I'm almost sure you wont, and you'll likely know this, but I'll still say it: they really can't talk for all of us.

I certainly enjoyed reading this thread more than many others!


(Nothing against you, Jaglover! I know what you mean and I see your point, but I do think some actually do want to read about their methods; and more! ^^;)
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
steveL wrote:
just that you seem experienced enough to follow the instructions without thinking you should make them up for yourself as you go along.

I'm not following you.

Why? Is that not clear language or something?

By all means do what you want, man. None us of have any interest in pushing you into anything you're not ready for.
Quote:
But in any case, I've never been talking about potentially having any difficulty following instructions (like in the handbook).

So what? All I did was explain my position, which you seemed to be querying. As such, why should everything I say be tailored specifically to your words?
Quote:
Everybody seems to be uncomfortable with the idea that I like to think about some things in a general overview way, in advance of doing things like installing stuff. Don't think for a second, that anything I'm talking about has to do with any reluctance on my part to do things like that. In my mind, the views are separate and unrelated.

I don't really mind how you want to approach it, or not.

The point we're all making is that you won't have the information you seek to make decisions, and indeed to do any of the "thinking" you talk about, until you've gone through at least one install. Your perspective changes immensely, even if you don't get through the install. Abstract information with no context for it, tends not to be retained so well.

So, we'll see you when you get there.

In any event, please stop telling us we don't understand: we understand fine. Do w/e you want, no-one minds.

From our side, please accept that we know a bit more about this than you do, and that every single one of us was in your position when we started out, and some of us are just as cautious as you. At least entertain the possibility that we're not just trying to get you to do things like us, but we are in fact responsive to where you're coming from.

Again: do what you want. I have zero interest in pushing you into anything. Hopefully we're clear on that now, and you will stop explaining to us just how cautious you are, and how none of us really understands you, etc.. so you must repeat it over and over after large quote chunks.

It's tiring, with respect; I'm sure you feel the same way about it. So let's drop that aspect of this convi, please, on all sides.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
Jaglover,

I don't think it's (all) about 'preparation for one's first Gentoo install'.

I, for one, sometimes wish I could be less of a 'jump in' and 'learn by doing (only)'.


When I'm tackling an issue with a car for example, I usually just go in as usual, but sometimes consult a reparation manual first. As cars get newer, they often have ridonkulous requirements, dependencies, if you will, to remedying an issue, and consulting the book comes in handy indeed beforehand (hello Duratec Mondeo requiring lifting the engine for wishbone replacement; some engineers been at work there!).

That is more or less the extent of 'preparation via books' I can do. I think I might have already had issues with it in school, where I felt it was difficult to have things stick in my mind. I feel this might be affecting my prolonged inability on getting into C and C++, as I read tutorials but always drop them at some point (lazy), and wont easily remember things I read and have to start from the beginning the next time. Mostly, really, that's probably about me not keeping up with it, and actually writing more code. If only it opened to me as easily as Bash did. (Just starting on that, too.)

Getting into Linux has helped a bit in that I've been hacking on Wine for example (really just hacking on it while debugging it, not exactly knowing what I'm doing: trial and error), but I wish I could really learn from reading, and actually remember it without doing it for some "$RANDOM" period of time.


I should be sleeping, but I found some wine (the liquid kind), and felt like rambling a bit, so apologies for that!

Anyblue, I would ask you, OS Newbie, to not be discouraged by some (any) members of this fine community not being interested. I'm almost sure you wont, and you'll likely know this, but I'll still say it: they really can't talk for all of us.

I certainly enjoyed reading this thread more than many others!


(Nothing against you, Jaglover! I know what you mean and I see your point, but I do think some actually do want to read about their methods; and more! ^^;)


Thanks Chiitoo, for that reminder that not everyone here lacks the subtlety of mind necessary to follow the thoughts of others who approach things differently than the ways in which they do. I'm happy to hear that you've enjoyed reading this thread. I have enjoyed it overall myself. And as the originator of this thread, let me say that I welcome any ramblings that you feel compelled to ramble on about. If there are thread police (and by that, I mean Gentoo.org forum administrators) who want to think otherwise, let's hear from them.

As to your comments about your difficulties with retaining what you read in books say, about C and C++, I think that you probably should dismiss that as being not a big deal. Maybe if or when you get excited about some project that will make good use of the information, it'll mean more to you and stick in your mind better. If not, so what? You're probably right about just coding more, at least more often. Personally though, I don't give any thought to C++, not that that will necessarily mean much to you. What kinds of programming are you into (why are you motivated to learn C and C++)? (Oh my God, maybe we'll need to start a different thread, or go to some C/C++ forum. Or you could PM me, if you want to talk about programming).

In response to your opening comment "I don't think it's (all) about 'preparation for one's first Gentoo install," I'd like to point out that it's not at all about my first Gentoo install (or the many subsequent ones), at least if you're talking about what it is that I'm saying here. I'm thinking about the bigger picture. I'll zoom into the macro-world of Gentoo technicalities later.

And as far as I'm concerned, this is certainly a legitimate type of thread for the "Other things Gentoo" forum. In fact, if somebody wanted to talk about the sociological significance of the correlation between say, The GPAs of female Scottish grad students who are attracted to butt-ugly Gentoo Linux nerds, even that would seem a permissible thread topic here (not that I'm implying that there are any). Anybody who has a problem with people's interests or their approaches to things, should just mind their own business. People don't come here to have other forum members critique the ways in which their minds work. I certainly didn't. I was just hoping to find some people who could appreciate my perspective, and would want to be helpful to me. Having people say that I should stop thinking about what it is that I want to think about, and instead install Gentoo, and focus on what it is about Gentoo that they want me to focus on, is just painfully irritating.

I will get around to installing Gentoo, when I get other things done around here that need to be done before winter. Meanwhile, I reserve the right to think about Gentoo any ol' way I care to, whether anybody here thinks that I should or shouldn't talk about it before installing it.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
Everybody seems to be uncomfortable with the idea that I like to think about some things in a general overview way, in advance of doing things like installing stuff.
Not everyone is, some might just appear so given their familiarity with the usual question and answer type of interactions; seeing an invitation to discuss {Uni,Linu}x philosophy as a whole as a bit broad of a topic to breach without generating volumes of text which would not all that long ago have been relegated to bound volumes. The more specific the questions, the more apparent comfort they will display.

OS Newbie wrote:
I ask that everyone who doesn't like my inclination to talk about Gentoo/Linux philosophically in advance of becoming familiar with it, please abstain from trying to talk me out of doing so. If that's too much to ask, then I'll defer to you all and leave this forum so that my lazy-seeming abstract musings won't bother anyone.
My counterproposal is a request to just be willing to cordially ignore pushes to go before you are ready. As you have already witnessed, some people will not follow your interest in researching things in breadth and depth as you see fit prior to diving in to the actual install, and will try to fit you into their usual boxes for unfamiliar users.

Jaglover wrote:
In short, get your feet wet and talk less.
Oh, let me rephrase this. You are welcome here but get real.
You want to install Gentoo? Do it!
You need help? Lots of highly qualified folks here are ready to assist you.
Nobody here really wants to hear your ideas how to approach and prepare for your first install.
As with any install, it will start when the installer decides to start. Just accept that the questions we will eventually be fielding will be more of the nature of which daemons to choose and why versus why packages are failing to build with malformed CFLAGS.

Not everyone is inclined to learn how to fight alligators by going for a hike alone in a swamp. While managing to do it may be impressive, seeking to avoid it is hardly unwise.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

Again: do what you want. I have zero interest in pushing you into anything. Hopefully we're clear on that now, and you will stop explaining to us just how cautious you are, and how none of us really understands you, etc.. so you must repeat it over and over after large quote chunks.

It's tiring, with respect; I'm sure you feel the same way about it. So let's drop that aspect of this convi, please, on all sides.


This would be a good statement if you were correct in your belief about understanding what I've been saying. But you're not correct about it. For instance, I have not said a single thing to indicate that I'm being cautious. But let's do drop it, at least let's have all of you drop it who seem to have a need to reframe my thinking.

I haven't replied to anybody to tell him that he is misunderstanding what I'm saying, unless he is misunderstanding what I'm saying. If you or anybody else disagrees with me on that, please just don't persist in trying to convince me that you do or he does understand what I'm saying. I don't want to have any conversation about that, myself, either. I'm only doing so because you insist on pursuing it, and I won't go along with you in your belief that you understand what I'm saying. And since this is my thread, and there are a few people who do understand what I'm talking about, I'd appreciate it immensely, if everyone else would just stay out of it. That's the only solution to this, other than for me to not have the conversation that I want to have with the people who are having it with me. Can we agree on the idea that I should be able to have conversations with people who I want to have them with, without having to put up with people who want to continue to assert that they understand me when I say that they don't?

Anybody who has any inclination to say anything to me about jumping in and installing Gentoo before I say anything else about it, is invited to stay out of this thread until such time as I have done that. In fact, I fervently request that he does so.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
Everybody seems to be uncomfortable with the idea that I like to think about some things in a general overview way, in advance of doing things like installing stuff.
Not everyone is, some might just appear so given their familiarity with the usual question and answer type of interactions; seeing an invitation to discuss {Uni,Linu}x philosophy as a whole as a bit broad of a topic to breach without generating volumes of text which would not all that long ago have been relegated to bound volumes. The more specific the questions, the more apparent comfort they will display.

OS Newbie wrote:
I ask that everyone who doesn't like my inclination to talk about Gentoo/Linux philosophically in advance of becoming familiar with it, please abstain from trying to talk me out of doing so. If that's too much to ask, then I'll defer to you all and leave this forum so that my lazy-seeming abstract musings won't bother anyone.
My counterproposal is a request to just be willing to cordially ignore pushes to go before you are ready. As you have already witnessed, some people will not follow your interest in researching things in breadth and depth as you see fit prior to diving in to the actual install, and will try to fit you into their usual boxes for unfamiliar users.


Those two paragraphs comprise the wisest post that I've heard on any forum, in a long time. I will try to do exactly as your counterproposal suggests. But as an aside, let me point out again that I am not putting off installing Gentoo because I'm not ready. I don't need to research anything in more breadth or depth before doing so. Why I'm not installing it yet is simply because I have a long list of other things to do around here before winter weather hits, none of which has anything to do with Gentoo, Linux, or computer technology at all. I do have some time to ponder Linux-related things. And discussing those things can be to my mind, interesting and helpful, even without having first breathed life into any Gentoo systems. Why this inclination of mine results in having so many people here jump all over my posts in a completely inappropriate manner mystifies me.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
Thanks Chiitoo, for that reminder that not everyone here lacks the subtlety of mind necessary to follow the thoughts of others who approach things differently than the ways in which they do.

Mhm. You do it when you want to do it; I wouldn't rush it either, and I would certainly not blame you for asking for information before you jump in.

OS Newbie wrote:
I'm happy to hear that you've enjoyed reading this thread. I have enjoyed it overall myself. And as the originator of this thread, let me say that I welcome any ramblings that you feel compelled to ramble on about.

'Tis good to know you enjoy it, too, for otherwise it would have been a waste of time.

OS Newbie wrote:
As to your comments about your difficulties with retaining what you read in books say, about C and C++, I think that you probably should dismiss that as being not a big deal. Maybe if or when you get excited about some project that will make good use of the information, it'll mean more to you and stick in your mind better. If not, so what? You're probably right about just coding more, at least more often.

Indeed. It helped when I jumped into Linux, and Wine (which I need for some gaming applications) is something I want to help with, which uses C, and C++ is something I would also like to know at least a bit. I'd like to learn as much as I can of any programming language there is, but if it was that easy, I guess everyone would be a programmer!

OS Newbie wrote:
Personally though, I don't give any thought to C++, not that that will necessarily mean much to you. What kinds of programming are you into (why are you motivated to learn C and C++)? (Oh my God, maybe we'll need to start a different thread, or go to some C/C++ forum. Or you could PM me, if you want to talk about programming).

C++ is mostly interesting to me because of its wide'ish use so I feel I should know at least the basics of it. I'm not sure what I will use for the grounds-breaking game I will one day develop, but I will try to learn as many languages as I can!

I would like to ask why you especially don't care for C++, but perhaps it really would really fit its own topic better.

OS Newbie wrote:
In response to your opening comment "I don't think it's (all) about 'preparation for one's first Gentoo install," I'd like to point out that it's not at all about my first Gentoo install (or the many subsequent ones), at least if you're talking about what it is that I'm saying here. I'm thinking about the bigger picture. I'll zoom into the macro-world of Gentoo technicalities later.

Right!

That's exactly what I tried to say earlier!!

OS Newbie wrote:
Those two paragraphs comprise the wisest post that I've heard on any forum, in a long time.

I dunno.

desultory tends to say a lot of things...
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