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desultory
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Looking for someone to devote time to teaching you GNU/Linux? Here you go: http://www.redhat.com/en/services/training
They do not appear to accept remuneration in the form of beer and there is no indication of a story swapping payment plan.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Hadn't you heard? Gentoo is dying. For evidence, I present the Why Gentoo Sucks, and Why it Will Ultimately Die thread, now in its 9th glorious year. ;)

- John


That thread sounds like something that I would find very entertaining.

For what it's worth (not very much, I'd guess), it doesn't matter much to me whether or not Gentoo remains popular statistically in relation to other distros. All I care about is whether or not it will die entirely, meaning that Gentoo users would be unable to get future versions that incorporated new kernels, etc. (without doing everything themselves). Since I will quite likely confine my efforts to running it on old hardware that I already have around (and maybe on things like the Beaglebone Black board), it wouldn't really even matter all that much to me (at least in terms of its being a compelling choice for my purposes), if it stagnated altogether. It would seem kinda like something that I had written for my own use, as opposed to being something that was created for the world at large.

Of course, I certainly hope that it remains a vibrant, supported thing, and that the Gentoo community flourishes through the ages. The whole philosophy behind Gentoo seems like exactly my kind of thing, which is why I'm drawn to it.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
Looking for someone to devote time to teaching you GNU/Linux? Here you go: http://www.redhat.com/en/services/training
They do not appear to accept remuneration in the form of beer and there is no indication of a story swapping payment plan.


Perhaps I'm just being dense. But I'm not following you at all here.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
If I could delete this thread, I would.
It could be locked, if you really want it to be, though that does not seem necessary from my perspective. The usual approach would be to report it and request a lock. Though with two, now three, administrators posting here, just requesting a lock here would suffice.

OS Newbie wrote:
One other "question" I have in regards to Gentoo is whether or not it will be likely to have a long supported life into the future. An electronics engineer-turned-software guy I know told me that Gentoo was practically dead in that way. It seems to me from what you and others have been saying here, that it's very much alive and well.
The refrain that "Gentoo is dying" has been around for over a decade, and has so far proven to be as prophetic as the cries of "BSD is dying" which predate it by quite some time, especially factoring in relative timescales for computer related fields. In short, Gentoo is taking its sweet time in dying and will almost certainly give you plenty of warning before it decides to finally curl up and die.


No, I certainly don't have any inclinations toward asking to have it locked. What I meant was that I'd like to have everybody who thinks for some reason, that I want to have interactions outside the forums (at least ones that should be inside the forums), to stop posting to this thread. That isn't my aim. And I don't want to keep talking about whether or not it is.

And I'm glad to hear that Gentoo is alive and well.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket wrote:
I can certainly can understand why it would be great to be able to work around someone who's done it before. There is a lot we've lost by not having actual face-to-face contact. In so many ways the internet has been dehumanizing: we have community after a fashion, but not in a way where we could share good times and a laugh. We have lost a great deal by getting lost in little screens while being unaware of our surroundings. I really get what you mean by wanting to have that interaction. It is not so much a matter of being spoon-fed but being able to say "hey, look at this".

At my company there are a lot of programmers, and many of these are recently out of college. There is a good bit of interaction among us all. A lot of people have questions for me. They are not asking me to do things for them but to get an idea of why and how things go together like they do. The human interaction counts for a lot.

That said, the unfortunate fact is that we in the Gentoo community are fairly sparsely dispersed in the world. I live in Florida, which is more than 2000 miles from Oregon. I would have to think that there are Gentoo users in Oregon, but even then the distances matter.

So, if some Gentoo user in Oregon sees this thread and responds, that would be great. If someone in North Florida posted a message like yours, I'd certainly respond. Absent any response like that, you'll have to look to Plan B. That's essentially where the other people in this thread have been pointing. We do have great documentation, and we do have a nice community that is helpful for answering questions--even if we are not all here in person.

I thinik you'll find hat the normal way for people to get into Gentoo is for them to pick it up form themselves. That is the case for me too. Even though when I started at my company the head of network operations was a Gentoo developer, I pretty much worked out everything for myself.

Your kind of experience should take you a long way. Bear in mind also that in user groups you might run into people who have gone well past Ubuntu.

Thanks for your reply. Your first two paragraphs are right on the money, when it comes to the sentiments that I've been trying to express. I appreciate what you're saying about the face-to-face interactions between programmers, and also the fact that you are trying to see my point of view. But it's not as though I want to talk to the guru about the kinds of things that would be properly asked and answered in the forums. Interacting in the forums is not alternate plan B. I fully intend to do that regardless of whether or not my Guru(s) appear(s).
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
OS Newbie,

I'm up for it your way.

Don't ask me about GNOME, systemd, KDE, (e)udev, pulseaudio, *kit or auto anything since I don't use any of that.
I don't use multilib either. Theres probably lots of other things I can't help you with too but we will come to those later.
Maybe I'm not your idea of a guru any more?

I'm good for KVM, hardened and the server stuff I use plus a little twm and Xfce .
Oh, it will need to be about noon your time for an hour or so only, as I'm in Scotland, so we are unlikely to meet over a beer.
Skype is out as it needs pulseaudio, google hangouts doesn't seem to work without multilib. I did have ekiga working once but that was two sets of hardware ago.

If you want to take me up on the offer, we will correspond in public, on these forums.


Thanks. But what you're suggesting (as best as I can tell) is to do exactly as people normally do in these forums, which is something that of course I feel grateful for, even in advance. When I have any questions that I can ask along any of the lines you mentioned, I will look forward to hearing anything you have to say. You seem like a deeply knowledgeable Gentoo guy.

But that isn't what I was asking for. I suspect that if we were talking in person, I might seem less dense or maybe more understandable. But I don't think that you're likely to be inclined to engage in the parallel philosophical conversations that I had in mind when I first posted. That's fine! I'm sorry that my post aroused your attention, when what I'm looking for isn't a match for your inclinations.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
Perhaps I'm just being dense. But I'm not following you at all here.
Both NeddySeagoon and you had mentioned meeting your, at this point rhetorical, guru over beer, whereas Ant P. linked to paid professional training; I was just attempting to gently suggest to Ant P. that it was probably not the sort of guru you were looking for.

As for finding a guru, perhaps a guru starter pack, just pick something that you want to do with Gentoo and start exploring and asking questions about it. Sooner or later, probably sooner, you will find someone willing to regale you with tales of the many eyes theory and the tao of Linux while pointing out where the ancients have cleverly hidden traps in syntax, logic, execution, or documentation.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
If I could delete this thread, I would.
It could be locked, if you really want it to be, though that does not seem necessary from my perspective. The usual approach would be to report it and request a lock. Though with two, now three, administrators posting here, just requesting a lock here would suffice.

I meant to also say that locking the thread wouldn't have an effect that was anything like the effect that deleting it would have. Locked, it would still remain here forever, serving as a catalyst for misunderstanding. So, I guess I'll just reply to anyone who bothers to respond to it, and hope that eventually, my intent (irrelevant though it may be) will become more clear to anyone who cares, and everyone else loses interest.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
Perhaps I'm just being dense. But I'm not following you at all here.
Both NeddySeagoon and you had mentioned meeting your, at this point rhetorical, guru over beer, whereas Ant P. linked to paid professional training; I was just attempting to gently suggest to Ant P. that it was probably not the sort of guru you were looking for.

As for finding a guru, perhaps a guru starter pack, just pick something that you want to do with Gentoo and start exploring and asking questions about it. Sooner or later, probably sooner, you will find someone willing to regale you with tales of the many eyes theory and the tao of Linux while pointing out where the ancients have cleverly hidden traps in syntax, logic, execution, or documentation.


I'll take that as the wise and sage advice that it is.

As for Ant P.'s link, since I was looking for conversation having to do with things other than technical details about Gentoo and Linux (as I'm sure you're aware), yes it's true to say that it wasn't the sort of guru that I was looking for. But I feel compelled to further mention that the paid professional training vendor not being a place that would take story swapping, etc. as payment (while being a satisfyingly insightful bit), moves a little away from my point that I wasn't looking for Linux training at all, but rather for a person with a philosophical grand view of Gentoo, Linux and Open Source in general.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best way to get a "guru" is to login to IRC: chat.freenode.net and /join #gentoo and #gentoo-chat and take it from there. You'll find lots of people willing to help, and can take the time to filter for an appropriate mentor, if that's still what you feel you want.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

May I ask a personal question?

Dear OS Newbie, how old are you? Over 65? No need to answer if you do not feel like you want to.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have another personal question. OsNebie, you said you want to go this way for a reason. You kept repeating it every here and there, and you said we would not understand, but never even tried to share it. I'm curious what that reason is. Also, what makes you think you can judge what we can or can not understand?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
... moves a little away from my point that I wasn't looking for Linux training at all, but rather for a person with a philosophical grand view of Gentoo, Linux and Open Source in general.


A whole lot of people have this sort of information.

Some of the others on this thread obviously have the Gentoo part of it better than I do, but there are a lot of us who have been around Open Source -- both using and contributing -- since Linux was young. I got into it when Linux was 5 years old.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So just taking a stab here, I'm guessing you're after:

  1. How and why Open Source came about.
  2. The various philosophies of open source projects.
  3. The politics of Open source.
  4. Who the founding "players" are, and their motivations.
  5. How licenses and communities work.
  6. How contributors submit code.
  7. Peer review.
  8. Who the big contributors are.
  9. How a distribution works.


If any of this is on track, then there are a whole lot of people who are very knowledgeable, and also some extremely good documentation online and in book stores.

This sort of thing would probably make for a lively discussion on the forum.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
May I ask a personal question?

Dear OS Newbie, how old are you? Over 65? No need to answer if you do not feel like you want to.
Well, I don't feel self conscious about the age I've reached (59). But why do you ask?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
I have another personal question. OsNebie, you said you want to go this way for a reason. You kept repeating it every here and there, and you said we would not understand, but never even tried to share it. I'm curious what that reason is. Also, what makes you think you can judge what we can or can not understand?
It's tiresome to address things like this. I have explained all this as well as I can. And I don't think that I've said that nobody here can understand my reason (but I'm not going to reread this thread in order to ascertain that). Let's just say that anybody who can't understand it, simply either isn't following the literal meanings of the things that I've said, or I'm not effectively communicating them.

In any case, this whole thing is just a tail wagging a dog now. I'm not going to follow this thread in the future. It seems obvious to me that my question had the effect of swatting a hornet's nest, and the hornets as a group, had a very different interpretation of my question than I had expected them to have. That says to me that I should probably not have asked it. And I really don't want to have individual conversations with each of the hornets about his interpretation of my statements. I'll just take my lumps, and retreat.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
OS Newbie wrote:
... moves a little away from my point that I wasn't looking for Linux training at all, but rather for a person with a philosophical grand view of Gentoo, Linux and Open Source in general.


A whole lot of people have this sort of information.

Some of the others on this thread obviously have the Gentoo part of it better than I do, but there are a lot of us who have been around Open Source -- both using and contributing -- since Linux was young. I got into it when Linux was 5 years old.
Which makes you just the sort of person who for me (someone with lots of history with computers but none at all with Open Source), it would be great to converse with over a few beers. Imagine say, a 50-year-old guy who'd never been to school. And he was sitting in a classroom full of first graders and their teacher. You can imagine the kinds of conversations that he would have with the teacher, that were outside the realms of the usual lessons. He wouldn't necessarily need the teacher to tell him how to get through the lessons quicker. He'd probably have his own ways of addressing that. But he might ask some meta-lesson-like questions, to ascertain whether or not say, that he'd want to follow certain paths, and not others.

I'm sure that you'd have lots of insights about the various step-by-step things that I want to absorb also. But I wouldn't want to use your time for that kind of pedestrian stuff (well, maybe I would. but I'd feel guilty about imposing on you for that).
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
So just taking a stab here, I'm guessing you're after:

  1. How and why Open Source came about. [NOPE]
  2. The various philosophies of open source projects. [NOPE]
  3. The politics of Open source. [NOPE]
  4. Who the founding "players" are, and their motivations. [NOPE]
  5. How licenses and communities work. [NOPE]
  6. How contributors submit code. [Probably eventually, but that's maybe a big subject]
  7. Peer review. [Eh, maybe. That is interesting, but not something that I expect to get into anytime soon.]
  8. Who the big contributors are. [NOPE]
  9. How a distribution works. [I don't even know what you mean by that.]


If any of this is on track, then there are a whole lot of people who are very knowledgeable, and also some extremely good documentation online and in book stores.

This sort of thing would probably make for a lively discussion on the forum.

I've been aware of the Open Source movement since its inception, the motivations behind the various facets of it, the politics and legal cases, etc. I just avoided the whole ball of wax because I was in it for the money. And Open Source wasn't where the money was at. That said, I'd like to point out that I never wanted to have a career in the computer industry at all, but only got sucked into it involuntarily, thinking all the while that it was just a temporary gig to pay the bills while I was preparing to get into the fields of endeavor that I was actually attracted to. It came as a surprise to me that a such a large percentage of my life elapsed while doing that.

Now, I find myself watching a computer industry that is evaporating in my hands. The unwashed masses are all already gone, down the road gesturing gleefully on their smartphones, leaving those of us who expected there to always be continually developing computer platforms at our disposal, shaking our heads in wonder as we watch OS X and Windows being dumbed down to the point where eventually I suspect, there will be only a single large button on the screen (press it, and it'll do whatever most people want). I want to drag my ass through the ordeal of becoming an Open Source OS and programming tools guru, so that I can continue doing the kinds of things with computer technology that I've always done. That is - make cool stuff out of it (not that you can't make cool stuff out of smartphones, but I don't like interacting with that itsy-bitsy screen.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:49 am    Post subject: Well, I guess I might as well get started Reply with quote

Not that it's of any note, but today, I printed out the Gentoo Handbook (for AMD64), assembled a bunch of abandoned hardware, etc. in preparation for beginning the process of bringing up Gentoo on the system that I have the most spare assembled chassis for (Asus P5LD2-VM rev 2) with an Intel Core 2 Duo CPU and probably only a couple of Gigs of RAM (I should probably get some RAM). I had already downloaded the ISOs.

Soon, I will try to get started on it. Wish me luck. I'm feeling at my most newbie-ish. And that is a state that is for me, most uncomfortable and most foreign. But as we all know, the only way out of it is to persevere until scar tissue has been acquired.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie,

Good luck. I guess you qualify for this too?

You can actually install Gentoo using any system that will give you a root shell on the target box as none of the code from the boot media goes into your install.
System Rescue CD is a good starting point. The Gentoo minimal *.ISOs are just for us members of a generation who can remember a time before GUIs.

The main thing is to have fun.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
System Rescue CD is a good starting point.

I'd even go a little further and say (the Gentoo-based) SystemRescueCd is the best starting point. It includes the GParted GUI partitioning tool, which means you can use that instead of the long-winded procedure in 4.c, 4.d and 4.e of the Gentoo Handbook for partitioning the disc and formatting those partitions.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:
Jaglover wrote:
May I ask a personal question?

Dear OS Newbie, how old are you? Over 65? No need to answer if you do not feel like you want to.
Well, I don't feel self conscious about the age I've reached (59). But why do you ask?


By way of intro...

I hit 59 in a few weeks, and will shortly be assembling and installing my "birthday computer". I'm in the Burlington, Vt, area, though my daughter's best childhood friend moved to Portland, Or. a number of years ago. My daughter has been there a few times, never for me. I've watched "Portlandia" a few times, but it has a serious tendency to send me screaming from the room.

My first computer was a CoCo, purchased in 1981 and continually upgraded until 64k, expansion port, dual floppies, serial adapter, running OS/9 - a Unix-alike. After that I got into the PC world running DOS, ran Windows the bare minimum, and ran OS/2 for a number of years.

As OS/2 was losing what viability it had, I moved to RedHat, trying a friend's RH4.0 (way pre-Enterprise) back when it was brand new, I forget the year. I got RedHat 4.1 from CheapBytes and ran that way through RedHat 7.2. When RedHat 8 came out without the ".0" at the end I felt some fear, and began casting about for a new distribution. Within the year I found my way to Gentoo, and have never looked back... (At least until last November with systemd, but that seems to be thankfully behind us.) I started using Gentoo between 1.2 and 1.4, back on a way-old numbering scheme - I think the numbering scheme has changed at least twice since then.

Make sure your new PC is internet-connected, presumably behind some sort of firewall, though to be honest that won't be terribly important to start. (Nothing will be "listening" on a fresh install.) You don't need any sort of Gentoo install media, pretty much any sort of bootable installation media will do. Personally I prefer the SystemRescueCD. (Google is your friend.) The Gentoo handbook is pretty darned good, and people here are really good at answering questions.

I approach my "birthday computer" with a little fear and "newbie attitude" myself. It's going to be my first UEFI machine, and that's going to be ALL different getting it to boot on it's own. I've read a ton of different ways to get a machine like that to boot, and I know from the Arch Linux forums that others have had booting problems with this board. It'll be an adventure.

Oh, I got my first cell phone last Christmas - a smartphone, largely as a learning vehicle. Within a few weeks I installed Cyanogenmod on it and have run that way since. At the end of July the last Cyanogenmod developer doing builds for this phone got a new phone, and there have been no new builds since. If I want new builds for my phone, I guess I might have to do them, so I've been learning that as well. I've actually had 2 successful builds so far, but there is an upstream problem and I know they won't boot until I revert to git commits, which is another learning curve. Soon....

Good Luck
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Well, I guess I might as well get started Reply with quote

OS Newbie wrote:

Soon, I will try to get started on it. Wish me luck. I'm feeling at my most newbie-ish. And that is a state that is for me, most uncomfortable and most foreign. But as we all know, the only way out of it is to persevere until scar tissue has been acquired.


Gentoo's probably a good fit for you then, you may or may not spend a couple of days banging your head on the screen but in the end you'll have more familiarity with the system than you'd get from a hundred point and click installs.

My tips:

Be careful when setting use flags (http://www.gentoo.org/dyn/use-index.xml), get your system booting and backed up (http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/HOWTO_Custom_Stage4) before you start adding or removing features to or from your packages.

emerge gentoolkit before anything else, it is indispensible (imho).

Good luck, hope you enjoy.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
OS Newbie,

Good luck. I guess you qualify for this too?

You can actually install Gentoo using any system that will give you a root shell on the target box as none of the code from the boot media goes into your install.
System Rescue CD is a good starting point. The Gentoo minimal *.ISOs are just for us members of a generation who can remember a time before GUIs.

The main thing is to have fun.


I should point out that having fun has never been a priority (or even a particular interest) of mine. I suspect that following the Gentoo Handbook verbatim will be my path of choice. I probably won't get to starting the installation process today. But standby, I expect to be convulsing over it soon enough.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
System Rescue CD is a good starting point.

I'd even go a little further and say (the Gentoo-based) SystemRescueCd is the best starting point. It includes the GParted GUI partitioning tool, which means you can use that instead of the long-winded procedure in 4.c, 4.d and 4.e of the Gentoo Handbook for partitioning the disc and formatting those partitions.


Thanks to both of you guys. I will probably follow the handbook exactly. But after that, I may then try the GUI partitioning tool anyway, just to see what it's like.
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