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Do you want systemd as default on Gentoo?
I <3 systemd!! I want Gentoo to switch!!
12%
 12%  [ 26 ]
Get that horse-crap away from Gentoo as far as possible!
87%
 87%  [ 186 ]
Total Votes : 212

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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven,

saellaven wrote:
There is one group that could overrule the Council, and that is the trustees, but you've basically indicated that, unless there is legal action, you won't do so, and, thus, are content with them harming Gentoo.

There is simply no point on trying to reverse/overrule council decisions. Unless they are endorsing what the people volunteering to do the work want, they will be ignored anyway.

The council deciding something does not make it happen in Gentoo, it more the devs doing the work get council to endorse what they have done, rarely, what they inted to do.

As steveL points out, a change to the default init system in Gentoo will need the agreement of a lot of devs who will contribute to the change.
Council will only rubber stamp such a decision.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, I do not call anyone to give up. I just think that one by one we will be crashed. It isn't a Gentoo problem, as well as isn't a Debian or Arch problem. It's a Linux problem. And to deal with it easier if to work together.
It would be great if current status quo will continue forever without our efforts, but I do not believe in it because this crap:
Quote:
Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call

is a direct challenge and threat.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
Guys, I do not call anyone to give up. I just think that one by one we will be crashed. It isn't a Gentoo problem, as well as isn't a Debian or Arch problem. It's a Linux problem. And to deal with it easier if to work together.
It would be great if current status quo will continue forever without our efforts, but I do not believe in it because this crap:
Quote:
Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call

is a direct challenge and threat.
it is, but the solution isn't to fracture gentoo. They will only divide and facilitate alienating easier. If a viable non-systemd system needs to exists then it needs to thrive and that means not feeding ammunition to the proponents of systemd (who already dismiss non supporting views as just trolling)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prepared the following before the two last posts above. So creaker, doesn't your "it's a Linux problem." reads primarily it being a problem which will get down to the genius in question, the one of the rootkits which spender saw and of the linux capabilies?
In that sentence of yours:
's/x/s/'

But this is what I prepared:

Gentoo is in a class of its own, steveL's reasoning is more than correct. It could be put into an introduction for newbies about what Gentoo is.

So creaker, there is lots of hope left, I think you'll be sending that gallon of beer, if you'll be keeping your word.

Shamus397, what's in the way of getting more closely Gentoo and Funtoo? I wish for good people and I wish to see some joining of forces...

And what do you (I must admit being among experts here, while I am not one --and I don't really get why not speak openly to the public like I did), so I'm really seeking to solve my queries and I'm asking about the right way to go...

What do you say of blueness's work on musl based Gentoo? It has all the right ingredients, it builds as default with grsecurity hardened kernel. musl sticks to standards, so probably promising... eudev, no systemd... dbus there on not? I hope can go without it, and without any poetteringware whatsoever, Should be universal, aimed from desktops to mobiles... I keep hoping to be able to use it on my desktops.

I can't find time to look up the current status, am busy pretty much. I did earlier figure out that with the precursor Lilblue developers stumbled on flaws in uCLibc which turned out to be a dead end, and they decided that musl was the way to go.

As I said, I'd need more time than I can afford now to figure it out, and you may already know the answer...

Why not try and rally around that project? blueness I'd hope most of you trust. He does seem to also play politics but, hey, politics is the science of the possible.

Miro
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

miroR wrote:
What do you say of blueness's work on musl based Gentoo?

It's excellent, as is his work on eudev. musl is the nicest of the alternative libcs, imo. Clean portable and standards-compliant (apart from adding printf "%m", which is fair enough.)

I don't think we need to focus around one project as such though: Gentoo is our distro, as much as anyone else's. It's not like we're stopping anyone else using it how they want; in fact we're standing up for everyone's ability to use it how they want, because it affects ours. Don't urinate in the well, as khayyam put it.

And glibc works fine: Drepper knows what an ABI guarantee means, and exemplifies the userland equivalent ethos of Torvalds' "don't break userspace"; backward-compatibility of glibc is a different world to the push-lol mentality of systemdiots.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
miroR wrote:
What do you say of blueness's work on musl based Gentoo?

It's excellent, as is his work on eudev. musl is the nicest of the alternative libcs, imo. Clean portable and standards-compliant (apart from adding printf "%m", which is fair enough.)

Which is beyond my reach to understand.
Quote:

I don't think we need to focus around one project as such though: Gentoo is our distro, as much as anyone else's. It's not like we're stopping anyone else using it how they want; in fact we're standing up for everyone's ability to use it how they want, because it affects ours. Don't urinate in the well, as khayyam put it.

Clear meaning words, even though not nice to say.
Quote:

And glibc works fine: Drepper knows what an ABI guarantee means, and exemplifies the userland equivalent ethos of Torvalds' "don't break userspace"; backward-compatibility of glibc is a different world to the push-lol mentality of systemdiots.

Right. As I said, very busy. Writing quickly.
So I was thinking, just thinking, maybe Daniel Robbins, who, IIUC, got git to work for Funtoo, could help arrange that Gentoo musl project overlay can get proper git... (or was it git without gpg signing support, which is a significant drawback)...
Like I said, very busy. Writing quickly. No time to guess.
And maybe you people know more precisely (my wording not being entirely correct possibly)... I just remember blueness said somewhere on the musl project to compile somthing without git or gpg support...

Miro
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:

The council deciding something does not make it happen in Gentoo, it more the devs doing the work get council to endorse what they have done, rarely, what they inted to do.

As steveL points out, a change to the default init system in Gentoo will need the agreement of a lot of devs who will contribute to the change.
Council will only rubber stamp such a decision.

In theory, but theory and facts seems different if we look at the "/usr" fiasco.

If i trust Council as-is here's the current result of the Council decision for /usr support
- I could legit made any bug report to support /usr
- Any dev could legit discard my bug report as WON'T FIX because of Council decision
- Any user can legit reopen the bug and insult (not mandatory, but hey, certainly legit in that case) the dev because he close a bug base on a decision made by the Council that have simply no rights to made such.

Council state itself it doesn't have any legal or format existence, and its own decisions are not straight lines for Gentoo but more like "suggests".

In real, it kind-of works, as most decisions made by Council are indeed base on other devs agreement, but Council is taking decision/suggest not only over devs, but on Gentoo itself (the /usr case is a typical example, it influence devs, users and the distro itself).
But like any other entity, when everything works, well, it just works. Rules are mostly made to cover the "it doesn't work case".

So it should be made CLEAR :
- if Council is a non existing entity with no power ; something just useless and nobody should cares about it
- If Council have ANY power, so like any entity with power, we should have a way to balance that power with another force, could be appeal rule, or another entity to issue Council decisions problems... But a way to balance the Council power.

Because right now, Council have the best of both world : Council can pass rules everyone shouldn't follow but everyone follow because else, well, what would Council would be for? So what Council said is in real written in rock, that's not bad itself, it even look sane that our devs think Council is a valid entity. BUT because Council is an evasive entity without a clear status, Council decisions cannot be appeal because well, nobody have to care about decisions made by a ghost entity.

- If Council have no real power, Council should just be disband and stopped. We don't need a useless entity.
- If Council is making decision for devs only, OK, but devs should still have a way to balance the Council decision. And users must also have a way to balance such decisions for the case where Council goes beyond its mission (a decision that influence more than devs, but the distro itself MUST have a way to be appeal/revoke)
- If Council is making decision for Gentoo itself, OK, but devs and users should have a way to balance it. But as now Council have its status to endorse not only devs but the Gentoo life itself, Council seats must be extend to represent the Gentoo Community, and our community is made of devs AND users.
So Council seats can still be only taken by devs but must be vote by devs and users or some seats must exists for users with an equal power (a 50/50 count).


Until this is fixed, it is perfectly legit that someone complains Council decisions cannot be appeal.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The council do accept/reject GLEP's though and GLEP's are meant to capture what Gentoo is (via a history of approved and implemented GLEP's)

So while any developer can essentially do what they want, they still have to do a minimum to be classed as a gentoo developer & that is partially, indirectly governed by the council.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@miroR: I personally don't know why Gentoo and Funtoo don't work together more closely, to me, it seems like a no brainer. :) If you really want to know, you can ask drobbins himself, as he usually hangs out on #funtoo on freenode.

My gut feeling is that Funtoo is not going to go down the SystemD path, given that there was an initiative to create a fork of Funtoo (started by drobbins!) called FOAM or somesuch that was going to have SystemD as the default init (+kitchen sink & flat tire) in order to support Gnome 3.12+. Apparently (and this is pure speculation on my part), it was decided that removing support for SystemD would be a better path to follow than to try and support what would realistically be two distros.

FWIW, YMMV. :)

@NeddySeagoon: If Exherbo is a serious Gentoo fork, how is Funtoo not? ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:


@NeddySeagoon: If Exherbo is a serious Gentoo fork, how is Funtoo not? ;)
I guess it is a matter of semantics. Funtoo is mostly overlays and patchsets (which are part of overlays). Do you consider a system that uses any overlays as a fork?

Exherbo is a reimplementation of Gentoo which to the most part is just a used over the ebuilds & renaming them making it incompatible with gentoo
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
@miroR: I personally don't know why Gentoo and Funtoo don't work together more closely, to me, it seems like a no brainer. :) If you really want to know, you can ask drobbins himself, as he usually hangs out on #funtoo on freenode.

My gut feeling is that Funtoo is not going to go down the SystemD path, given that there was an initiative to create a fork of Funtoo (started by drobbins!) called FOAM or somesuch that was going to have SystemD as the default init (+kitchen sink & flat tire) in order to support Gnome 3.12+. Apparently (and this is pure speculation on my part), it was decided that removing support for SystemD would be a better path to follow than to try and support what would realistically be two distros.

Thanks for your reply, Shamus397.

Little time left here to dedicate to the issue.

Can only speculate.

My question I raised because of what I, reminder: a non-expert, see as dissipation of good people's time and effort.

Daniel Robbins leaving in 2008 (IIRC what I read) is unclear to me (and no time to research), while his work with Microsoft is not a bonus with FOSS.

However, people change, and that he must not have really been a close-source (and One-Ring-cravers' accomodating; see my third previous post to this) guy, serves to tell us the fact that he did not remain there. Again, not completely clear at all to me (and no time to research). But people change, and if he is now FOSS devoted like his rejection of poetteringware (or is there other poetteringware there in the Funtoo's systemd-free Gnome? how free of poetteringware is Funtoo?) seems to attest to, then I support him.

If I were him, maybe I would accept to be a common dev in Gentoo like any other, not necessarily the first man in Gentoo. Humbleness is hard, but does wonders with lots of people... But again, info missing (and no time to research).

Why I decided to ask is because the marvel of portage architecture was due to inspiration that was given to him and not someone else. And I do consider portage architecture matchless in things FOSS in area of building systems, by virtue of which Gentoo is matchless, like in steveL explanation that I in my second previous post to this one pointed could be used for telling newbies what Gentoo is...

So if there were more work together, and more: harmony, btwn current Gentoo leaders and the founder of Gentoo, and then the merge...

Just wishful thinking on my part, maybe.

Daniel Robbins, I hope someone will point you to my words here (pls have a look at my third previous post from here, I'm no sycophant, I have it, and ugly on Linus Torvalds and others, just as I have a lot of support for other people in FOSS Linux; see there)...

Daniel Robbins, if you are reading this (it doesn't matter when), what is your reply, especially on the line with the string humbleness, case insensitive? If it applies here, but I have too little info to make an opinion (and no time to research).

Gentoo is still your baby, :-)

Miro
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
Guys, I do not call anyone to give up. I just think that one by one we will be crashed. It isn't a Gentoo problem, as well as isn't a Debian or Arch problem. It's a Linux problem. And to deal with it easier if to work together.

With whom exactly? Debian and Arch have already switched. Like I said, Gentoo is the platform, and there's nowhere to retreat to.

By all means we should collaborate with Slackware or whomever else, but the best way to do that is to collaborate around the software components we want to use. We can do that right here, since we have such a perfect testbed to play with, designed to build whatever we tell it to.
Quote:
It would be great if current status quo will continue forever without our efforts, but I do not believe in it because this crap:
Quote:
Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call

is a direct challenge and threat.

Perhaps; I see it as more of an attempt to set the pigeons amongst us, and watch us struggle with the bs. After all it's easy to declaim like that on a blog, just as it is here on the forums.

To me it reads more like an abusive control-freak, keeping in line the people who already "know their place" by threatening someone who isn't interested, and letting his minions know where to attack next.

So in that sense, yes, we're under attack, and the next few months will be critical; we need to hold our nerve, because as others capitulate, more and more flak is going to come our way. Other distro users who've drunk the kool-aid will see our holdout as disquieting, so they'll avoid the cognitive dissonance by trying to sway us over "for our own good," and in the background will be the systemdiots braying for our distro to be torn down, and supplanted by a Fedora-sourceMix, so that they can move on to their next goal on their Shining Path to a Linux monoculture.

That's okay though, imo; Gentoo forums users are pretty good at seeing through claptrap, as a collective. We might express interest at first, because we have open minds, but over time any dodgy assertions like "separate /usr is broken" are worked through and shown for what they are: the lies of an incompetent; propaganda at best.

We've had ten years of being called "ricers" and "idiots who wait for everything to compile" (by the same people we're now told to surrender our userspace to.)

Going against the norm is practically a prerequisite for firstly doing a Gentoo install, and secondly maintaining one, on real hw you use, for more than 6 months.

Personally I pity anyone who even attempts to bend Gentoo users to their will. ;-)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:

As steveL points out, a change to the default init system in Gentoo will need the agreement of a lot of devs who will contribute to the change.
Council will only rubber stamp such a decision.

I wish you had previewed that post and edited it to s/will/would/g.

As krinn said, 'theory and facts seems different if we look at the "/usr" fiasco' so it's perfectly reasonable to ask what other decisions will be rushed through based on a faulty premise.
And yes, overall Governance is the Trustees' remit, not the Council's, since ultimately whatever is done under the Gentoo name, is done in the legal name of the Trustees.

Social issues are prima facie not under the realm of Council, based on the way that body has been (informally) constituted to deal solely with technical issues where developer consensus is not forthcoming. So when will Trustees actually step up and take over CoC and bring back proctors in line with the Community mandate?

After all, you've had since 2008 to put the legal side in order, and I thought that was on a better footing 2 or 3 years ago. Wouldn't you all rather get on with the real work, which will be much more interesting?
krinn wrote:

Council state itself it doesn't have any legal or format existence, and its own decisions are not straight lines for Gentoo but more like "suggests".

In real, it kind-of works, as most decisions made by Council are indeed base on other devs agreement, but Council is taking decision/suggest not only over devs, but on Gentoo itself (the /usr case is a typical example, it influence devs, users and the distro itself).
But like any other entity, when everything works, well, it just works. Rules are mostly made to cover the "it doesn't work case".
..
Because right now, Council have the best of both world : Council can pass rules everyone shouldn't follow but everyone follow because else, well, what would Council would be for? So what Council said is in real written in rock, that's not bad itself, it even look sane that our devs think Council is a valid entity. BUT because Council is an evasive entity without a clear status, Council decisions cannot be appeal because well, nobody have to care about decisions made by a ghost entity.

Heh great analysis; nice incisive description of the Catch-22 used to evade all responsibility.
Quote:
Until this is fixed, it is perfectly legit that someone complains Council decisions cannot be appeal.

Indeed: as you stated, their decisions affect everyone using Gentoo.

Aren't most of us here for technical reasons? So how come only developers have any real voice when it comes to technical decisions? I know the "they do the work" line, but think for a second: how much of the real QA work is in fact done by the users? Seems to me it's a collaboration between all of us, not just a few.

I for one did not come to Gentoo for the social life; I can think of much nicer places to collaborate, than the usual atmosphere of the dev ml.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
letting his minions know where to attack next.


I mentioned this before, but only once... I believe Gentoo is/will be under particular attack because Google Chrome is a tweaked variant of Gentoo.

Looking at that it's really kind of silly, for a number of reasons...
1 - Getting systemd to be the Gentoo default init system is one thing, getting sysvinit and openrc pulled from portage is another thing entirely.
2 - Google has heavily tweaked Chrome - if they don't want systemd, that'll be another part of the weak, if they did want it, it would be already.
3 - L.P. "threatened" to remove netlink from udev and make it pure kdbus. On the userspace side, that's when I move to eudev. As for the kernel, good luck with that... About the time he tries to make the kernel break userspace the the same disregard that he handles systemd, he'll see exactly how much of a "systemd fan" Linus really is. Removing an interface that is not used by userspace takes long enough, as far as I know, they just don't remove kernel features with known and current usage in userspace. Even if udev goes that way, eudev is a legitimage user, and someone like Peter Zjilstra will make sure that's known, even if Greg K.H. doesn't.

I suspect RH sees systemd as a path to becoming the elephant in the room. Google already is the elephant in the room, and they're probably weighing things very carefully. (Maybe even uselessd - that could be fun, seeing them pick the technical aspects while rejecting the Borg.)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
I suspect RH sees systemd as a path to becoming the elephant in the room. Google already is the elephant in the room, and they're probably weighing things very carefully.


The problem with elephants is that they don't really care about those puny humans milling around underfoot.

Re Google and RH: Remember the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:

The problem with elephants is that they don't really care about those puny humans milling around underfoot.

IBM used to be renowned for that one, though it was usually referred to as, "sleeping with an elephant." There are skills for the task that others have learned when needed. (Some didn't, too.)
Anon-E-moose wrote:

Re Google and RH: Remember the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.

Of course, but that doesn't say that one shouldn't take advantage of aligned needs. Think of the American colonies, England, and France a few hundred years ago.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Re Google and RH: Remember the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.

Indeed.
depontius wrote:
Of course, but that doesn't say that one shouldn't take advantage of aligned needs. Think of the American colonies, England, and France a few hundred years ago.

Yes, but we're the native Americans.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

depontius wrote:
Of course, but that doesn't say that one shouldn't take advantage of aligned needs. Think of the American colonies, England, and France a few hundred years ago.

Yes, but we're the native Americans.


Just for fun I'll take the remark seriously and try to run with it. The fact of the matter is that there wasn't much the native Americans could do. In North America they greeted the Europeans as friends, and look what it got them. In South America they greeted the Europeans as enemies, and the end result was pretty much the same.

Of course it can be fun to look to literature for others' writings on this kind of issue, and this being a tech forum of course science fiction would be a natural. This sparked memories of an old favorite of mine, "Monument" by Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Similar situation, with a twist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_%28novel%29

Continuing to take it seriously, I would say that in both North and South America, the natives didn't really know what they were up against, and what could and would be mounted against them - including biological warfare. (Blankets from Smallpox patients given as "charity".) The colonists knew the score, knew they were playing British against French, and managed to negotiate the whole thing pretty well, becoming long-term enemies of neither. The question is, as you suggest, whether we're colonists, native Americans, or natives of Langri.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say, that post about SystemD: Biggest Fallacies has some real gold nuggets* in it. And I have to give props to the Google engineers (as much as I despise Google), they're not so easily buffaloed by the SystemD proselytizers. :)

I think from now on when anyone posts a 0pointer.de link to me, I'm going to post that 'SystemD fallacies' back. :)

* phpBB seems to choke when I try to embed the Google Groups URL, so you'll have to cut & paste: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/chromium-os-discuss/R4W2fhiwvyg
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Shamus397 wrote:
@NeddySeagoon: If Exherbo is a serious Gentoo fork, how is Funtoo not? ;)
I guess it is a matter of semantics. Funtoo is mostly overlays and patchsets (which are part of overlays). Do you consider a system that uses any overlays as a fork?

Exherbo is a reimplementation of Gentoo which to the most part is just a used over the ebuilds & renaming them making it incompatible with gentoo

Well, there are some other fundamental differences, like the profile system with its mix-ins, that it uses git for syncing the tree on user's machines, that they will fork ebuilds if necessity mandates it, that they ensure that the toolchain is always in a sane state (even in ~), etc. I'd say it's more than just overlays and patchsets, but that's just me. :)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
And I have to give props to the Google engineers (as much as I despise Google), they're not so easily buffaloed by the SystemD proselytizers. :)
Agreed. Thanks for the link to that google groups thread...interesting read. It definitely sounds like google knows they're doing just fine without all the systemd crap so many try to pawn off as necessity. Essentially "prove it's an improvement and we'll think about it"...which of course will never occur...and those folks aren't falling for the go-to lists of lists of "myths" ;).
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny to read the almost strong arm propaganda from the sysd rah-rah crowd on the mailing list link :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Funny to read the almost strong arm propaganda from the sysd rah-rah crowd on the mailing list link :lol:
Yup...and to those of us who aren't wearing blinders while drinking kool aid, the very fact that they're on that list trying to push it...and the fact that they actually give a shit about Chrome OS using it at all...speaks volumes about the projects motives.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those sycophants that keep pushing the boot up time, I wish they would realize that just because
you've got a login prompt, it doesn't mean the system is ready for work at that point in time.
Windows gives one a relatively quick prompt, but if you've ever tried to do something within the first 5 minutes
or so of that prompt you realize how slow the system is, because it's finishing the boot process (being hidden).

In other words the quick boot is really only a mirage.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
In other words the quick boot is really only a mirage.
Without question. On every Windows OS I've ever used I've made sure that the network task bar icon was always set to be visible so I'd know when that johnny-on-the-spot desktop was actually ready to use. I've never fallen for that in my life, yet people seem to be falling for it with sysd.

Besides, if you don't have a lot of unneeded BS, since when is boot time an issue anyway? I'm not sure about others here, but I can boot up to a working fluxbox desktop in about 30 seconds (including web development stuff like apache, MySQL etc) on an 11-year-old x86 dinosaur I'm running here. I'd have to think the same setup on anything current would be like flicking a light switch. I mean talk about a cure for which there's no known disease...
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