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Do you want systemd as default on Gentoo?
I <3 systemd!! I want Gentoo to switch!!
12%
 12%  [ 26 ]
Get that horse-crap away from Gentoo as far as possible!
87%
 87%  [ 186 ]
Total Votes : 212

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steveL
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
steveL wrote:
@saellaven: I don't think we should bother with that discussion personally; the decision happened, and we've dealt with the consequences for our use-cases. Focussing on that, can only take us backwards, though at least we've proved that the "separate /usr is broken" myth is exactly that: a complete load of myth. ;) It's exactly the same situation as 15 years ago: if you need modules to get access to your rootfs, you need an initramfs (pka: initrd.)

And should the Council take the Debian approach, where politicking is used to force a political decision regarding mandating systemd? Would you rather wait for that day to come, the decision to be surreptitiously dropped on us, and then not be able to be appealed, ala /usr?

If it really came to it, I'd ask you to join me in forking Gentoo.

However it won't come to it, because Gentoo is built from source. That means no one can stop us patching anything we want.

So in that sense, the most I'd do is try and start a downstream bindist, using Gentoo as upstream, same as so many others.
Quote:
I would rather expose and correct the corrupt dealings of the Council now before we're in a complete position of weakness, as happened with /usr.

Well I wouldn't call it corrupt as such; perhaps easily-manipulated.

Though I agree WilliamH is a poisonous person, having been on the end of his manipulations. It's weird, I always really liked him, which is why he got 9 months and not 3. I certainly saw all the crappy behaviour in the first 3 months, though, and there is no way I'd have him involved with anything important, and definitely not with anything code-related. To be frank, he doesn't know what he's doing, and is totally incompetent to lead openrc, in my professional opinion. *shrug*

On the wider point, like I said Gentoo can always be patched, as it's from-source. If they gave that up, they'd have no USP over other distros, no niche as the upstream for other distros, and no reason to exist. So if they do go down that route (of brittleness as opposed to flexibility) any further, then Gentoo won't be Gentoo any more. That might suit RedHat, who'd probably keep using it for QA, and for them it would in effect be the same as buying Cygnus. Good for them, terrible for FLOSS.

Somehow I don't think Gentoo devs are that short-sighted, at least not the core (who aren't anywhere near Council, btw.) And if they are, users will pick up the pieces and start again. We're much more stubborn than the opposition realises.

I don't think they will, as they'd lose what makes Gentoo Gentoo; and however obnoxious they may sometimes be, they're on Gentoo for a reason. If they didn't think it had something special, they wouldn't have signed on as developers.

If they really are that stupid, then we're in for some interesting times.
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
saellaven wrote:
steveL wrote:
@saellaven: I don't think we should bother with that discussion personally; the decision happened, and we've dealt with the consequences for our use-cases. Focussing on that, can only take us backwards, though at least we've proved that the "separate /usr is broken" myth is exactly that: a complete load of myth. ;) It's exactly the same situation as 15 years ago: if you need modules to get access to your rootfs, you need an initramfs (pka: initrd.)

And should the Council take the Debian approach, where politicking is used to force a political decision regarding mandating systemd? Would you rather wait for that day to come, the decision to be surreptitiously dropped on us, and then not be able to be appealed, ala /usr?

If it really came to it, I'd ask you to join me in forking Gentoo.

However it won't come to it, because Gentoo is built from source. That means no one can stop us patching anything we want.

So in that sense, the most I'd do is try and start a downstream bindist, using Gentoo as upstream, same as so many others.


My three options if Gentoo were to go systemd only (or at least make life miserable for people using something else) are:
1) fork Gentoo - something I toyed with somewhat seriously a few months back because of the lackadaisical attitude and willful ignorance of the Gentoo Council as is
2) go back to rolling my own systems from scratch - I did this and kept things updated across multiple systems and architectures for almost a decade, only switching to Gentoo as a means to automate it
3) switch to BSD

3 requires the least work on my part
2 is somewhat burdensome but manageable by just myself, especially with tools like comfigure (which remembers all of your ./configure options for you)
1 is something that I would frankly need help with

SteveL wrote:
Quote:
I would rather expose and correct the corrupt dealings of the Council now before we're in a complete position of weakness, as happened with /usr.

Well I wouldn't call it corrupt as such; perhaps easily-manipulated.


Easily manipulated is virtually indistinguishable from corrupt... If all they are is a rubber stamp, they serve only to make false dealings, such as the endeavor WilliamH conducted, seem legitimate to people not looking closely.

Quote:

On the wider point, like I said Gentoo can always be patched, as it's from-source. If they gave that up, they'd have no USP over other distros, no niche as the upstream for other distros, and no reason to exist. So if they do go down that route (of brittleness as opposed to flexibility) any further, then Gentoo won't be Gentoo any more. That might suit RedHat, who'd probably keep using it for QA, and for them it would in effect be the same as buying Cygnus. Good for them, terrible for FLOSS.


That is exactly the goal of RH and it's promotion of systemd through leveraging of other properties it controls. The entire point is to create a unified platform where everything is standard and there are no options. LP and friends outright admit the entire point is to make other distributions pointless.

Quote:

Somehow I don't think Gentoo devs are that short-sighted, at least not the core (who aren't anywhere near Council, btw.) And if they are, users will pick up the pieces and start again. We're much more stubborn than the opposition realises.


I'd like to believe that... but the Gentoo devs just re-elected WilliamH and friends to the Council anyway... only one seat changed hands.

Quote:

I don't think they will, as they'd lose what makes Gentoo Gentoo; and however obnoxious they may sometimes be, they're on Gentoo for a reason. If they didn't think it had something special, they wouldn't have signed on as developers.

If they really are that stupid, then we're in for some interesting times.


I think a lot of devs are devs because it's the easiest place to get a credential to throw on a resume... All you need to do is maintain a couple patches, pass a couple quizes and bam, free credibility. That's not to say that all devs are like that, but enough are.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
steveL wrote:
If it really came to it, I'd ask you to join me in forking Gentoo.

However it won't come to it, because Gentoo is built from source. That means no one can stop us patching anything we want.

So in that sense, the most I'd do is try and start a downstream bindist, using Gentoo as upstream, same as so many others.


My three options if Gentoo were to go systemd only (or at least make life miserable for people using something else) are:
1) fork Gentoo - something I toyed with somewhat seriously a few months back because of the lackadaisical attitude and willful ignorance of the Gentoo Council as is
2) go back to rolling my own systems from scratch - I did this and kept things updated across multiple systems and architectures for almost a decade, only switching to Gentoo as a means to automate it
3) switch to BSD

3 requires the least work on my part
2 is somewhat burdensome but manageable by just myself, especially with tools like comfigure (which remembers all of your ./configure options for you)
1 is something that I would frankly need help with

The "fork Gentoo" idea comes up every once in a while; I used to have, in my signature:
Code:
Unless you forget about using the portage tree, you haven't forked anything: you've made an overlay.

That's what most bindists based on Gentoo are, as well, afaic: pre-built overlays (including the underlying Gentoo tree) along with profiles.

So if you keep that in mind, a) there's never any need to fork, and b) it's pretty easy to maintain an overlay, as opposed to the whole tree. Typically it's only a few packages you really care about, or perhaps a category when talking generally.

In our case, we're basically talking about the kde-lean idea, which again requires only small changes, and in fact is more about the profile settings. When I do get round to that, I'd certainly put in ebuilds for coreutils, and the others you mentioned, so they install to rootfs like they're supposed to. awk is another one that needs to be in rootfs, for example; if you check it's linkage with ldd /usr/bin/awk you'll see it's just as tight as /bin/sed; deliberately so from the GNU end, imo. After all, awk is one of the base POSIX utils, required for system scripting just as sed is (and don't get me started on ed not being present unless we emerge it explicitly..;)

There's also the stuff I mentioned in the "udev without initramfs" thread about glibc and locales, where portage is fine with symlinks to rootfs. Ideally we'd have that in the ebuild, so there's no possibility of any issue, and users don't get warnings in their build-logs.
Quote:
That is exactly the goal of RH and it's promotion of systemd through leveraging of other properties it controls. The entire point is to create a unified platform where everything is standard and there are no options. LP and friends outright admit the entire point is to make other distributions pointless.

Oh for sure; however that doesn't mean every distribution is going to comply. Gentoo simply can't, in any case, or it won't be Gentoo.

Further, it's much much easier to build a stage for openrc than it is for systemd, and the former can easily switch to the latter since openrc isn't a borg. The other way can't so easily, and there's simply zero point in forcing the releng team to do (much) more work than required, along with many more complex interactions and dependencies, just to get a stage out to people.

That doesn't preclude a systemd stage3; it's just likely to be done by someone who wants it, and if they have any sense they'll just use the releng stage3 to make a systemd stage3.5. That could easily be scripted, and the parallel builds would actually be useful, at least for those who want to use systemd, as you'd get much better insight and repeatability.

I don't see it happening, however, as it would mean an acceptance of the Unix "live and let live" biosphere, as opposed to the Windows-like monoculture systemd-zealots wish to enforce. If that's your goal, then only a switch of the default, in every stage3, will suffice; even if it is much worse for the distribution and the users overall, since now they've lost the choice, quite apart from the technical deficiencies they have no escape from.

If systemd were the default, the next move would be to eliminate any other options as viable, same as in debian. You just know we'd hear the "why should we bother supporting an inferior alternative" bulshytt, along with "let's just focus our efforts on the next-gen (crapfest.)" If anyone thinks otherwise, they're lying to themselves, and if they claim otherwise, they're bulshytting to get us to switch, same as they lied about so many other things (such as being able to build udev without systemd, or the "separate /usr is broken" nonsense.)
Quote:
I'd like to believe that... but the Gentoo devs just re-elected WilliamH and friends to the Council anyway... only one seat changed hands.

Well like I said, the core developers (or what I would call the core developers) of Gentoo are nowhere near the Council; they don't have the time for it, since they're writing the code which makes everything else work, sometimes for the job they're doing, and the rest of the time because it's what they do.

Similarly, there are some ebuild and eclass maintainers who don't make any noise, but work across the tree, and more usefully in the background in channels focussed on whatever aspect or language they're into. They're the ones you see being asked for advice all the time (and quite often waited for, before someone will proceed, when they're not around), and their contribution is completely overwhelming by comparison to their commit rate.
Quote:
I think a lot of devs are devs because it's the easiest place to get a credential to throw on a resume... All you need to do is maintain a couple patches, pass a couple quizes and bam, free credibility. That's not to say that all devs are like that, but enough are.

Oh I agree most, especially the younger ones, who let's face it are most of the new lot at whatever point we're talking about, are here to establish a reputation. That's fine, afaic: one motivation is as good as another, so long as you get the result. But the quizzes aren't as easy as you seem to think, and you won't get through the recruitment process if you don't really know your stuff. So once in, their interest is in establishing themselves as a contributor, to pay back on the effort it took to get in.
Since they're young and enthusiastic (and have lots of energy ;) and the knowledge is fresh in their brains, not just as data, that typically means contributing as much as possible. Sometimes by focussing on a particular project or aspect, and sometimes just contributing wherever they can until they find a herd or three they like.

IOW the process weeds out people who aren't going to contribute, naturally, especially when it comes to the youngsters. If they don't have the initiative and the ability, they won't get through the process, and their natural self-interest is in using that knowledge once they're in. Or they won't be able to point to projects they've helped out with. And really, it's more about Gentoo as a gateway to other FLOSS projects, imo; since you're working with them from-source, the work is effectively QA for upstreams, much more intensively than bindists, since the coverage is so much wider.

Why would you then want to leave for somewhere more limited, and not as useful to upstreams, apart from maybe as a channel? ;-)

And there's nothing wrong with someone working only a few, or even one package. Reputation doesn't get established like that, within Gentoo, but as above, you often get upstreams who will proxy-maintain, and sometimes get a dev badge, since it is such a good QA opportunity. No other Linux distro gives you that; only the BSDs do, and that's not going to satisfy someone seeking to distribute on Linux. Sure they'll have s,rpms and .debs etc; but if they want to get truly widespread coverage, of both end-user configs and codepaths, then nothing touches Gentoo, since nothing else from source is as convenient nor as maintainable by an end-user or admin.

Similarly if someone is just working with one package, it usually means they have some serious interest in that package, and more of their work is actually done on the source-code side, than the ebuild. We want their focus, imo and should be proud of their choice, not disparaging because they only maintain a few patches, or whatever.

Anyhow, pm me if you want to kickstart kde-lean; I can do code/scripting, but it needs someone to chase and push it forward from the user/QA side, as well. Since my machine works fine for me, without another user there's no real motivation in going thru the overlay maintenance rigmarole. The coreutils etc stuff would be a good place to start: pretty simple and minimal patch.
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

Anyhow, pm me if you want to kickstart kde-lean; I can do code/scripting, but it needs someone to chase and push it forward from the user/QA side, as well. Since my machine works fine for me, without another user there's no real motivation in going thru the overlay maintenance rigmarole. The coreutils etc stuff would be a good place to start: pretty simple and minimal patch.


I'm definitely interested, just kind of crunched for time right now... which is why I haven't gotten back to you for a couple days.

The "joy" of starting a new business that eats up 65+ hours per week of my time even though I'm not getting paid yet.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I'm definitely interested, just kind of crunched for time right now... which is why I haven't gotten back to you for a couple days.

No worries :)
Quote:
The "joy" of starting a new business that eats up 65+ hours per week of my time even though I'm not getting paid yet.

Oh God; yeah, when you start earning it's great, then when it comes time to do the accounts, you realise how little you really earnt per-hour.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The term "this topic" in the text below refers to the topic on Gentoo Forums entitled (at the time of writing):

Why is Gentoo not switching to systemd?
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-998108.html

And the term post I retained, but is will probably be one article divided in two posts.

I needed to look up what there is in the popular knowledgebase which Gentoo Forums are on Grsecurity issues that might occur on users' systems in recent times, because I have an issue on my system in which Grsecurity support is already involved:

grsec: halting the system due to suspicious kernel crash
https://forums.grsecurity.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3709&start=15#p14456

I did a lot of search on Gentoo fora, but I found too little in regard to my issue that I poblished there.

(I will need support here about that issue, but I can't even ask about it yet, for the reason that follows.)

I am not ready to ask about my Grsecurity-related issue above because I stumbled upon this topic in my aforementioned search on Gentoo fora, and couldn't stop reading.

I couldn't stop reading because this is for me an issue of continuing to use Gentoo (and Debian) FOSS Linux [1] or not.

And I've read this entire topic today (last proofreading notice: yesterday), yes all the, at te time of writing, 13 (thirteen) pages. Nearly an entire day's worth of reading, comprising reading and watching most of the links (not all, most) pointed to from this topic, and the most talked about, in this topic, videos.

I would like to touch on a few points that have been discussed in this topic and related links.

But let me first (this is not going to be those few points I want to touch on yet) try to point to you one particular possibly painful issue for one contributor in this topic. This is marginal to the discussion, and it is not technical, and I would only like to touch it very briefly (last proofreading notice: I had managed, but I didn't), if you'll allow.

I see that chaosesqueteam has started to contribute to the discussion here:

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-998108-postdays-0-start-150.html#7615608

and that he was, after a parachuter joined the discussion (pls. read about Operarion Orchestra which I mention later in this post):

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-998108-postdays-0-start-175.html#7616746

and chaosesqueteam in all fairness politely tell her or "her" ("Joined: 13 Sep 2014", "Posts: 3", do you trust parachuters into topics?, I don't) off:

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-998108-postdays-0-start-200.html#7617752

he was first attacked, baselessly the first attack, don't know about the second regarding Debian mail-list; that was by two people that he was attacked. I feel the need to point to the readers here that the latter of the two had no restraint in calling even blueness's work on eudev, basically, plagiarism:


eudev vs udev - current user perspectives
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-987204-start-25.html

GFCCAE6xF (current name) wrote:

I found it not only incredibly cheap to quietly pull their code after spreading lies and misinformation about a project and certain people but also incredibly hypocritical (correct english word?, I think) so I removed it for what I guess can only be describes as 'moral reasons'.


And I simply have to call your attention, brothers in the free *nix, to this page on Arch Puppy Linux:

eudev, fork of udev
http://bkhome.org/blog2/?viewDetailed=00168

where pls. find and read around:

BarryK wrote:

So, I turned to eudev, the fork of udev. Three of the eudev developers gave a presentation recently at a conference, and they were ganged-up-on by the clique of systemd developers. Then a lot of other people who haven't really got a clue, propagated the criticisms.


And take good notice of "developers got disheartened" here:

BarryK wrote:

Note, the last commit was about a month ago. I think that the developers got disheartened after being attacked.


But see also:

BarryK wrote:

Posted on 12 Mar 2013, 8:09 by BarryK
eudev continues
I have received feedback from a couple of the eudev developers, and they will be continuing the development.


So that denigration on blueness on Gentoo Forums by the now GFCCAE6xF forum user, and previously a different name user he was, must have hurt too (as must have Anon-E-moose and others gratefulness been a relief to that Gentoo developer.

I can be severe in criticism when I need to as well, don't take me for some too mellow-lemonade all-who-suffer-pitying guy.

Regarding chaosesqueteam, this is what possibly happened to some particular one of his posts (which I didn't see), later on:
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-998108-postdays-0-start-250.html#7620096

John R. Graham wrote:

The Mods and Admins strongly prefer to keep a very light touch on the forums, especially where editing is concerned. That said, you may notice that one particular post—and the few posts that quoted it—have been removed. Please keep your comments civil—and legal.

I certainly agree that posts should be civil and legal. And I don't know what was written in the particular post in question. I wouldn't want to remind here that very uncivil words and hate speech was allowed against me...

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-996830-start-0.html#7593390

But that was time ago... But I would just want to say, if it was chaosesqueteam who was censored for some incivility or worse, pls. have leniency if he posts some next time. He seems to be from Egypt where there are, since the coup of, IIRC, 2013, no civil liberties and where there is torture so Egyptians, who have contributed to FOSS, may be inclined to anxiosness and then venting a little too much anger. It's a nation in trauma after all the sacrifices they suffered in these years, and only for another dictator to come to power...

I guess he is from Egypt, because I know if we had such persecution in Croatia (we don't have *such* persecution, yet, not yet *such* wholesale persecution), I know if I lived under such murderous persecution, I wouldn't either say anymore than he said here:

Systemd violates social contract
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=117389&start=15#p553436
chaosesqueteam wrote:

The people in Egypt who don't like [[ the dictator ]] have the option of leaving.

[[ the note recently removed, you guess why ]]
comparing the situation in Egypt to systemd-or-leave attitude of the nascent PoetteringwareOS (or GULOS, whatever to name it) by their crowd.

And see keithpeter there wishing him luck and my mention of the 2013 massacre in Egypt to him on the forth page of that topic.

Next I'd like to start with some of the few points that I'd like to touch upon.

Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
www.croatiafidelis.hr
--
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Grsecurity/The_RBAC_System
Neither grsecurity's RBAC system nor any other access control system should be used to separate classified information from unclassified information on the same machine. There is no virtual replacement for a physical air-gap.
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miroR
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The term "this topic" in the text below refers to the topic on Gentoo Forums entitled (at the time of writing):

Why is Gentoo not switching to systemd?
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-998108.html

And the term post I retained, but it will probably be one article divided in two posts (this is the second and last part).

[Next I'd like to start with some of the few points that I'd like to touch upon.]

I fully agree with the message by Christopher Barry, link previosly only indirectly given in this topic:

OT: Open letter to the Linux World
https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459

And that message contains what I would like to, later, expand on, and in which I have found the sole little of the most relevant matter that you should have arrived at from many directions to, in this topic.

You really won't be able to accuse me of repeating of what you presented earlier in this topic, if I manage to put my thoughts into electronic text. I want to talk about what in this topic I found sorely lacking or non extant.

It's these words, pls. find them in context on that lkml.org page:

Christopher Barry wrote:

Partially it may well be nefarious and shadowy in nature. With One Ring to rule them all, having access to it sure would be sweet for those hell-bent on total information awareness.


It's clear what Christopher speaks here about. Just why is it that the sole mention of some of the true heroes of our days, is mentioned only, and how hypocritical that lie is in there!, in the quote from Poettering's own blog:

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-998108-start-100.html#7612844

Lennart Poettering wrote:

...EFI SecureBoot!... ...Cryptographically secure verification of the code we execute is relevant on the desktop... ...but also for apps, for embedded devices and even on servers (in a post-Snowden world, in particular).


Pls. see there the full quote, and context.

And yes, Christopher is talking about surveillance, he is talking about spying on FOSS Linux [1] users, via exactly the hypocrite Poettering's nascent OS or Grand Unified Linux OS, GULOS, just like users are surveilled and sold and controlled in all of the Macintosh world and in all of Windoze world.

This is one of the main points I have wanted to make, and I hope I have succeded in making it public.

If you want to read some more of my similar thoughts, based on expert knowledge and analysis, not mine, I'm not an expert, just a thinking FOSS Linuxer, have a look at what I wrote on Debian Forums (pls. those who suspect it will be simply tl;dt, pls. just don't read it). You can start from the latest:

How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&p=553249#p554239

and imagine, don't do it for real in your mind, just imagine, that is do not suppose, just ask yourself what if it could be said so in that same but sed'ed text:

's/Debian/Gentoo/g'

I'm saying clearly, just imagine, because it won't happen. And alos in Debian some people have hugely engaged in defence of FOSS Linux... If you look into and around that post, you can see, I contributed a little to that defence with starting some topics there too.

Don't leave there before you go back to previous posts from that post, the link above here, on Debian Forums, to where I transcribe Julian Assange, and Poul-Heening Kamp and Operation Orchestra, and cite some Ignorant Guru, back in that topic. Read, and also listen from further links there, about Operation Orchestra and FONs.

And try and figure out one thing. The very notion of talking truly of surveillance and intrusion in public, with the hope of, in our computing and online, retaining privacy and therefore freedom (but only by means of real security methods and protection), is only yet sensibly possible, in the whole of computing and (inter)networking, in *nix areas such as ours.

To those craving for the "One Ring to rule them all, having access to" which "sure would be sweet" as it would get them "total information awareness" or complete survaillance and therefore control of the surveilled, our freedom is a stick in the eye, they can't stand it. Therefore (I don't like the word): the "f**cking tool" (same Christopher Barry's open letter) comes to "preach" the GULOS to us, comes to make GULOS'es, or PoetteringOS'es out of our Linuces, to trojan us.

But that story must not happen, you know it must not happen, brothers in the free *nix.

I don't really want to criticize. I like much better when I can praise someone for his great service to the Community.

So far I can only speak in the best of terms about various people who I have sometimes had only marginal contact with, in Gentoo community, or in the, linked in the beginning of this post, Grsecurity project and other places in the FOSS Linux world.

I'm proud that I have had the opportunity to share my view of blueness' efforts and achievements on Debian Forums:

How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&p=553249#p553249

And I am happy to try and share a snippet from the one year old Gentoo Council meeting. It is in this topic the link in the post:

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-998108-start-250.html#7619770

that appears like I present it:

saellaven wrote:

ONE person, ulm, voted against making the change... dilfridge was absent and thus abstained. the rest phoned it in and simply blindly voted yes.
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20130924.txt


I want to show you my take on this meeting.
Pls. note the point where blueness says:

blueness wrote:

WilliamH, it is not a separate topic, c'mon!

at 21:11 on 2013-09-24

The most of the meeting I reproduce here in more readable format. I'll put the entire meeting talk in one big quote so non-Gentooers might more easily skip it.

Quote:

blueness wrote:
WilliamH, there is still no documentation for separate NFS mounted /usr

WilliamH wrote:
The thread I just linked is the original thread where I brought this back up.. Basically we were looking for issues that would block us from going forward and saying that

WilliamH wrote:
we are ready to drop support for separate /usr without an initramfs.

ulm wrote:
blueness: that's bug 481660?
[21:06]

willikins wrote:
ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/481660 "Documentation for an early boot mechamism with a separate NFS mounted /usr is lacking"; Gentoo Linux, Unspecified; CONF; blueness:base-system

blueness wrote:
yep

WilliamH wrote:
blueness: the position seemed to be that there is no need for separate documentation.

WilliamH wrote:
blueness: for nfs.

blueness wrote:
why?

blueness wrote:
does it just work?

WilliamH wrote:
blueness: I don't use nfs, but that was my understanding, it should just work (tm)
[21:07]

WilliamH wrote:
blueness: it depends of course on what is in the initramfs, but iirc genkernel supports it.
[21:08]

ulm wrote:
WilliamH: from some of your previous posts I had the impression that you intend to remove separate /usr support proactively

rich0 wrote:
That seemed to be the consensus - I didn't get a chance to test it personally, but that wouldn't take long to confirm one way or another.

ulm wrote:
WilliamH: like removing gen_usr_ldscript from ebuilds

ulm wrote:
WilliamH: and I'm a bit worried about it

blueness wrote:
me too
[21:09]

ulm wrote:
WilliamH: so is this going to happen if we vote yes today?

WilliamH wrote:
ulm: that is really a separate topic... mainly it should probably be discussed among base-system and toolchain...
[21:10]

WilliamH wrote:
ulm: that is where most of the gen_usr_ldscript stuff is being done.

blueness wrote:
WilliamH, it is not a separate topic, c'mon!
[21:11]

ulm wrote:
well, if we vote in favour of dropping support, we'll give base-system a carte blanche

_AxS_ wrote:
blueness: for genkernel initramfs, yes it just works.
[21:12]

WilliamH wrote:
We have already stated our intent to drop support eventually.

blueness wrote:
_AxS_, thanks

scarabeus wrote:
i am in favor letting them doing what they feel fit, if most stuff work, there always be something cornery

ulm wrote:
WilliamH: right, but from discussion in the august meeting my impression was that maintainers shouldn't remove existing support without a good reason
[21:13]

And the dropping of fully functional /usr was voted yes.

Just to note that to me, this is very likely that WilliamH on his then new seat in the Council is just as he is described by saellaven in the linked post of this topic, and this shows how blueness had to intervene for WilliamH to admit that it indeed was about dropping separate /usr. WilliamH obviously tried to wriggle out of admitting it.

The dropping of separate /usr of last year I do remember, and it apparently happened for reasons described not in the meeting but by saellaven in that post and the posts around in this topic.

What insincerity, WilliamH, if I may say so to you, me being only a simple member of Gentoo community! Pls. devs, don't elect WilliamH again!

I believe my saying that is not against the Code of Conduct:
http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct

but on the contrary, that I provided good reasoning and pointed to ample discussion, in that post, that indicates you might be a person of such behavior, and that I can state my opionion of you politely like I just did. Please, developers, don't vole WilliamH again!

But there is, in this very topic on Gentoo Forums that I have studied for a day now, some more of content sorely missing because no one of you ventured to arrive at it in your resoning and analysis. Or is it something frightens you about it? It is that the truth is too hard to bear? Your trust in Linux would be too damaged, and so you don't want to ever know about it at all?

I watched and listened to Linus' father, member of European Parliament, linked to by creaker in this post of this topic:

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-998108-start-175.html#7617166

and the link is:

http://falkvinge.net/2013/11/17/nsa-asked-linus-torvalds-to-install-backdoors-into-gnulinux/

which suggest watching the video:

http://youtu.be/EkpIddQ8m2s

at 3:07:00 where the author of the article Christian Engströmeee, a Member of European Parliament (and Member of Swedish Pirate Party) speaks and at 3:09:00 where Nils Torvalds, Linus' father and Member of European Parliament speaks.

Pls. read there, in Engström's post, and listen as pointed at in it, and read in the discussion in this topic about it.

But I'm not buying it. No, Linus, I don't believe you.

Some of you may even guessed which argument I will now call to your attention. Because I don't have many. And if you, brothers in the free *nix, continue to not want to know this truth, the arguments will be hidden by the Surveillance Engine [2] and we will have lost the battle against surveillance.

Here's one of absolutely most important articles to read for any FOSS Linux and generally *nix users:

Developer Raps Linux Security
http://www.crmbuyer.com/story/39565.html

citing of this article now possibly illegal without asking them and paying to them.
I wrote about it and asked for help:

Grsecurity configuration and install, for non-experts
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-992904.html

Yes, I do believe our greatest hope to retain the true FOSS nature of Linux, and retain FOSS Linux within its Unix natural habitat, which all can not be achieved without privacy, are just about the sole honest top security experts that haven't given in to the NSA and/or other Nations' spy agencies.

Yes I do mean grsecurity/PaX developers. I mean Bradley (spender) Spengler and (the anonymous) PaX Team.

Your father may be honest, but you are not, Linus Torvalds!

Because the NSA has accosted you loong, loong ago!

If not earlier, back in the days when you designed the Linux Security Module architecture. Because you designed it/had it designed for them. It was designed for the Security Enhanced Linux, the most loved of all spyware presented as securityware in so many GNU/Linux distros, loved even by Richard Matthew Stallman, the:

SELinux !!!

Go listen now to that crap Q&A session that Linus held wherever and whenever that he did (does it matter much? has anything changed in years since the SELinux went mainstream?).

It is linked from the post in this topic:

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-998108-start-150.html#7615608

and the link is:

QA_with_Linus_Torvalds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mIPPKReeGg
(duration: 1:11:00)

Too few technical questions there, I agree.

But the real questions nobody has asked him at all. There's one above, just reword the article about rootkits in the kernel or LSM (or whatever Linus may have evolved that architecture into, if he has), and ask it to him.

He should have been asked that right after or during his talk about security, from 1:05:30 to end, I just relistened that, and I simply couldn't take anything clever out of it.

I am actually appalled to see what a controled bunch huge swaths of FOSS Linux community actually is, that no one, no one in the crowd was as aware as to ask questions about this most important issue in *nix and FOSS Linux in particular. FOSS Linux in particular because it is at this time still the most widespread of the Unices so socially the most important for freedom in the world. And because it is on the verge of losing its unixness by turning into GULOS or PoetteringOS, when, if that should happen, it will contain within itself the One Ring in the hands of the surveillors, who by definition always tend to turn into controllers. Our controllers.

Linus praised SELinux there, how it has become not so blunt to run anymore (paraphrasing). Trying even not to take merit for that, but for having had others do it...

A few layers of hypocrisy there, brothers in *nix. A few layers thick hypocricy there.

What a honey-and-niceties, and tolerance-and-humbleness, all-loving, all-allowing lier this guy is!

He set that spyware crap, and don't tell me no one anymore knows that SELinux is spyware... He set that spyware firmly into there, and he is speaking kindly as if he was giving a sermon/other in some church or mosque or buddist temple, about some everybody-encompassing love or supreme nirvana which he eradiates to his faithful there (few voices of subdued dissent there), as if there his work was benefiting everyone... And what he has done is...

And what he has done is, as any FONs, what he has done is he has given over all of his dear "stupid" (TM, Linus Torvalds) faithful over to whoever is capable enough to get hold of the rootkits that he set in there for his dear Agency...

It is nauseating to me listening to him.

Now, in the same way other developers get disheartened when good projects are derided as eudev project was derided, as reported by Arch Puppy Linux's BarryK (his page cited further above), in the same fashion grsecurity developers must have been feeling the pinch of all the mainstream adoption of the competitor product, which no one sane will deny is spyware.

No one sane can plausibly deny that SELinux was planned, deployed and knowingly adopted by the main actors, primarily dear leader Linus Torvalds, as spyware with enough of the concealing-the-true-purpose outside features and purposes and shine and propaganda and whatnot.

Of course it has the shine on the outside, of course it has means of denying access, privilege escalations and things, but on the outside. It is otherwise simply part of the One Ring Christopher Barry talked about in the page from lkml.org that I cited at the top),

And there is more. After the other of my two arguments.

And some of you know which the other argument of mine is as well. Anon-E-moose, you know it. SteveL didn't reach there, he's too clever to admit that I often talk sensibly and with reason, although imperfectly and with lots of my own occasional quirks. You krinn must have noticed it, haven't you? As well as _the_ Admin John R. Graham...

It's the famous no one wants to admit what they *really* were designed for, underneath the superficial purpose of theirs. C'mon you can guess it now...

I can't keep you in suspense any more. It's what I said were kernel capabilites, but khayyam corrected me, but then went on and on about the straw man he allegedly saw in some of my arguments.

Uninstalling dbus and *kits (to Unfacilitate Remote Seats)
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-992146-start-25.html

No one in that Q&A has asked Linus about the rootkits in the kernel eversince he introduced LSM. And no one has asked Linus about the linux capabilities, and whether he could possibly reject claims from this article:

False Boudaries and Arbitrary Code Execution
https://forums.grsecurity.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2522

C'mon Linus, reject these claims! Demonstrate how insensible they are, how paranoid and plain wrong they are, probably because there is no blanket surveillance on FOSS Linux users, or because of some such reason!

Let's here from you on whether the claims how those capabilities you designed/let into the kernel with full awareness of their maliciousness or innocence, how those capabilities can or can not be used to gain access into FOSS Linux systems, mount arbitrary filesystems, even on already used mountpoints, and backdoor any binary on such systems, or not.

Of course others from your team would be very welcome to sensibly explain, but with your nice and mellow talk, people would certainly love to listen to you share with them your expertize on these capabilities which are in every FOSS Linux box...

You know, brothers in *nix, what would be great? A discussion in the open, with open access for all the media, on this issue between Bradley (spender) Spengler and Linus Torvalds...

Sadly, the big players, esp. the NSA, would not allow that to come to be organized.

(Dear readers, how does it sound to you now, the EU Parlamentarian Christian Engström's article and Linus's father's talk? Just to say, I do not doubt their honesty, only Linus's --I know too little about them.)

But if Linus will not have read this by the time he goes to another media event, to be able to reply to me, then there!, you have another question to ask him. Just reword it and formulate it (politely or in some of his stupid-denominating ways).

Or in case Linus gets to read this. Yes, Linus, I believe you are a lier.

Just wait. Can I say that? People were allowed to call me (I really don't use the word) "f**cking insane" and that post wasn't removed, you saw it and left it standing, John R. Graham. And they went on wishfully killing me Catholic, and Catholics like me (and like the sole assassinated President of the United States of America R. F. Kennedy), and the posts were left standing, my reporting of the incident ignored...

Place for Criticism Unhelpful/Damaging to Topics Here, pls.!
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-996830-start-0.html#7593390

So I hope even if you will apply much much stricter standards, this post of mine will still stand, won't it?

And there's more. Sadly there's more. And I haven't come to suspect of it yet until recently. And it is very bad news. For any *nix, esp. FOSS Linux lovers it will sound like suspicion of a terminal incurable illness. And it does look like that. To me.

Disclaimer first. I am not an expert. I know my ways with installing things in Gentoo and Debian, would be relatively easy for me to try and use Funtoo or some BSD variant (which I recommend to readers; Funtoo for Gnome users because it has a fully functional systemd-free Gnome --as Shamus397 reported in this topic--, and because Daniel Robbins, I think I'm missing him in Gentoo; would be great if there were talk of a merge and him having an active high role in all Gentoo things, but I don't know enough about him to tell for sure)... But I am not really a programmer, and will probably never find time in my late years in life, I am 57, to become a developer. What I will tell you next is my gut feeling, no evidence to support it, just indications and deductions and likelihoods.

The One-Ring-to-rule-them-all cravers know very well that on their path to total surveillance (and never forget that the real aim is control) of FOSS Linux and related *nix users, there is to my knowledge only one standing project that has proven to be very hard to undermine. And Linus knows it so well, although he would probably lie if he were asked about it. I suppose he might have even begged the Big Brotherly Entity to try and remove evidence like the 2005 rootkit article, and lo and behold, there you see the article and spender's words in the article have that notice, and you have to buy permission if you want to repost that article somewhere.

( So let me make an exception and repeat what is very important. If this link is alive by the time you read this article, copy that page and stow it away, it is a historical interview, if it disappears, you will miss it, kind reader:

Developer Raps Linux Security
http://www.crmbuyer.com/story/39565.html

)

The One-Ring-to-rule-them-all cravers, and Linus, know full well that only one standing project is there that has proven to be too hard to undermine on their path to users' boxen:

Grsecurity/Pax (it is a twin project usually referred to as solely grsecurity, for simplicity)
https://www.grsecurity.net

So it is my guess that they are very, very deliberately, and with great efforts, making it hard for grsecurity to protect *nix users. Deliberately making the kernel hard to be successfully patched by grsecurity patchset and the privacy viable grsecurity-patched kernel to be delivered to us, *nix users who want privacy and freedom.

That is what I suspect is going on.

That is what must have been the case when even SlashBeast complained how hard it was to enable gradm, the administrative utility without which there is no full benefit from grsecurity, since not all holes that Linus let be or purposefully created in the kernel are shut without it, if on a systemd deployed machine.

When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd?
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-981256-start-25.html#7482054

That is why I strongly suspect Tractor Girl had so much difficulty in figuring out what it was that caused problems in either:

System shutdown hangs after "remounting / read only"
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-992168.html

or:

vgaswitcheroo vs grsecurity
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-992766.html

And that is why it is hard to diagnose my issues that I gave link at the start of this post.

Linus, you sold us all. Kernel should be taken away from you! In whichever way. Forked, best.

Yes our only hope is people like spender and PaX Team, and those among the distros that honestly oppose GULOS, and Gentoo Council members like blueness, and many --but not all are-- honest Gentoo/Debian/other distro developers.

We must not lose. We, the various variants of *nix communities are the sole privacy and therefore freedom viable (but only through security) computing in the world of today, but to ever lesser and lesser extent.

We must reverse the tide, and we must not lose to the One-Ring cravers!

Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
--
[1] Why do I write FOSS Linux? Because to just name it only Linux is unfair, and because calling it GNU/Linux is unacceptable to me because Richard Matthew Stallman has become somewhat of a FON (friend of NSA). He's been promoting SELinux (see the Emacs page: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/ ), which is, as any spyware, against freedom, so his preaching is an empty rant to me. [F]ree [O]pen [S]ource [S]oftware gives credit to so much software in that OS that is made/maintained freely and openly by many people from all over the world and given to all users wherever, in true freedom without propriatory limitations and under any of the free licenses.

[2] Really? The Surveillance Engine Terminated All My Videos
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=113059
Yes, Schmoog is very able and nimble, and if they have some interest, intransigent and fallacious, at hiding stuff from users. It hid five (5) yrs of all of my work of uploading videos, very likely the Regime in power in Croatia bought from Schmoog the service of removing of all of the dissenter's in question, me, of all of the videos of mine. Could happen to that interview with spender very very easily! What do you think they some time ago put those scary (for anyone who had issues with alleged authorship and copyright breaches: scary indeed) notes how you need to buy the permission to maybe even just cite what spender said there!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmao.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just came across this and thought it was a pretty good summation of a lot of the things that those of us that don't want systemd on our systems have been saying to the systemd-for-all proponents.

Systemd: The Biggest Fallacies
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I just came across this and thought it was a pretty good summation of a lot of the things that those of us that don't want systemd on our systems have been saying to the systemd-for-all proponents.

Systemd: The Biggest Fallacies


An interesting read, including the comments.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven
Even after reading this article, none of systemd proponents will get rid of these fallacies. No one.
You will not be able to convince anyone with such articles.
Most of people like to belong to the huge herd. No one will leave his herd, no one will say: Hey! I was wrong.

In fact systemd won. Not because of it's advantages (I do not see any advantages here), but because systemd has a huge herd.
Those who dislikes to be in a systemd herd, have to prepare a place for retreat. I think it's a time to look around - where we can join? No matter with whom to collaborate - whether they are debian folks or gentoo folks or anyone else. We need to unite at one "non-systemd" platform.
What about Gentoo? It's pretty obvious for me that eventually Gentoo will adopt systemd and openrc will become a hot potato for Council. Council will drop openrc as soon as they be able to come up with a convenient excuse.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker wrote:

Those who dislikes to be in a systemd herd, have to prepare a place for retreat. I think it's a time to look around - where we can join? No matter with whom to collaborate - whether they are debian folks or gentoo folks or anyone else. We need to unite at one "non-systemd" platform.
What about Gentoo? It's pretty obvious for me that eventually Gentoo will adopt systemd and openrc will become a hot potato for Council. Council will drop openrc as soon as they be able to come up with a convenient excuse.


I've been preparing for that eventuality ever since the Council made the entirely political separate /usr issue because WilliamH wanted to make openrc appear just as limited as systemd and pave the way for an eventual Council mandated switch to systemd, ala what happened with Debian.

If I have to go it alone, my easiest option is to simply go back to creating/maintaining my own systems from scratch or switching to BSD.

I am willing to consider a fork of Gentoo, though it would be too much to manage on my own. steveL has brought up the idea of us collaborating on such a fork, though we (or probably more precisely, I) haven't had time to discuss it yet. I would imagine there's room to collaborate with Funtoo as well, or maybe just throw our weight behind them, given they explicitly do not want to support systemd.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven,

Its unlikely you would need to fork Gentoo - just create an overlay.
There are many Gentoo derivatives, most of which are Gentoo plus a distro specific overlay. The only serious fork of Gentoo, that I'm aware of is Exherbo.

For a sourced based distro, the problem comes with $UPSTREAMS that depend on systemd.
There are two choices, fix it, and carry the patch set, such patches are unlikely to be accepted $UPSTREAM, or drop $UPSTREAM.

Consider the pressure on Gnome and systemd if Debian had dropped Gnome instead of adopting systemd and becoming another distro playing catch up with Red Hat.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
saellaven,

Its unlikely you would need to fork Gentoo - just create an overlay.
There are many Gentoo derivatives, most of which are Gentoo plus a distro specific overlay. The only serious fork of Gentoo, that I'm aware of is Exherbo.

which can only boot from systemd ;)
http://lists.exherbo.org/pipermail/exherbo-dev/2013-June/001225.html

People need to calm down on the chickenLicken 'the sky is falling down' yes the progress of sysd is worrying but there is no need to go flying off the rail just have informative debates how to head it off

Forking, a real fork (not an overly) has resource issues... Look at exherbo, its their sandbox as they couldn't play well with others and due to the number of 'like minded people' they are stuck with sysd and a few other limiting aspects (the price of having the freedom todo what they want :) they can practically do it)

So let's say some here decide to build their own casino with hookers and blackjack with NO SYSTEMD what compromises will have to be made? See what can be done to keep Gentoo about choice, which it still is....
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it's too hard to maintain a system alone. It's hard even for a dozen of developers.
I read above, steveL wrote that he can patch a sources in any way he likes to get rid of systemd code, but, to be honest, it will become absolutely impossible once systems will own all the linux userland. You will patch it around the clock. It's a way to nowhere.
I am not a developer, so I do not know, what happens on that field, but I hope there are a number of developers who dislikes what's going on, and may be someone could push an idea about fork there.
Another one reason to not to do it alone is kernel. Once all the distros will adopt systemd, kernel team might decide to stop to be "systemd-neutral" and may allow some systemd-related code into kernel. This case you can't to keep your system free of systemd even by building it from scratches. If there was a non-systemd distro, it would be a reason for kernel team to keep the current status quo.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So now the speculation is that systemd will 'infect' the kernel? Can we get some realism here.
While Linus might tolerate (even not care and use it), it is completely different to become dependent on it. Linus already has had a number of tiffs with sysd devs over their quality (be it blaming the kernel for firmware loading or garbage kdbus patches)
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
saellaven,

Its unlikely you would need to fork Gentoo - just create an overlay.
There are many Gentoo derivatives, most of which are Gentoo plus a distro specific overlay. The only serious fork of Gentoo, that I'm aware of is Exherbo.

For a sourced based distro, the problem comes with $UPSTREAMS that depend on systemd.
There are two choices, fix it, and carry the patch set, such patches are unlikely to be accepted $UPSTREAM, or drop $UPSTREAM.


I reiterate that Gentoo is the upstream of openrc and it is openly hostile to accepting the patches that wouldn't have necessitated the Council's political decision.

Quote:

Consider the pressure on Gnome and systemd if Debian had dropped Gnome instead of adopting systemd and becoming another distro playing catch up with Red Hat.


Given the actions of WilliamH and the Council already, I have absolutely no faith in the Council going forward. That goes doubly so since there is no body to go to should the Council pull what the Debian technical committee (virtually the same job) did.

There is one group that could overrule the Council, and that is the trustees, but you've basically indicated that, unless there is legal action, you won't do so, and, thus, are content with them harming Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
Those who dislikes to be in a systemd herd, have to prepare a place for retreat. I think it's a time to look around - where we can join? No matter with whom to collaborate - whether they are debian folks or gentoo folks or anyone else. We need to unite at one "non-systemd" platform.
What about Gentoo? It's pretty obvious for me that eventually Gentoo will adopt systemd and openrc will become a hot potato for Council. Council will drop openrc as soon as they be able to come up with a convenient excuse.

I don't get all this retreat nonsense; when I read your second paragraph I thought you were going to say "Gentoo is already that platform."

Face it: there is nowhere to retreat to. Nor should we back down, "accept the inevitable" nor any of this other defeatist claptrap. They're our machines: we get to decide what goes on them, no-one else.
Quote:
I am willing to consider a fork of Gentoo, though it would be too much to manage on my own. steveL has brought up the idea of us collaborating on such a fork, though we (or probably more precisely, I) haven't had time to discuss it yet. I would imagine there's room to collaborate with Funtoo as well, or maybe just throw our weight behind them, given they explicitly do not want to support systemd.

I never said anything about doing a fork: I've repeatedly stated that we don't need to fork, nor will we ever unless Gentoo is Gentoo only in name. In which case we'll have "forked" months before-hand, by simply overriding the bulshytt packages in an overlay.

And yes, they'll have won their political victory over Gentoo; but by then all the cool people will be using something else, and they'll start the same battle against some other-named Gentoo. Again though, this is only a hypothetical, in the case that releng suddenly feel like doing several downstream herds' work for them at the same time as they're trying to put together a stage everyone can use, and in the case that the Gentoo Council decide they'd rather suck up to RedHat and the other mythical "big-boys" they've got in their hypothetically delusional minds, than nurture a from-source distribution.

It really would be short-sighted of them in the extreme (at a stroke, they'd double the workload and have a major regression in capability for their product), but I'm not saying it can't happen: simply that for that takeover to really mean what you're indicating, would be the end of Gentoo. No doubt the trustees will then turn around and say "Well, we tried," when we all know they did nothing to correct any of the fundamental problems.

Think about it: in the longer-term anyone who takes Gentoo down this path, is going to end up having the worst reputations in the FLOSS industry apart from the debian "Technical" Committee and Poettering himself.

What we have to avoid is pushing people down that path, since the trouble with the darkside is that once you start down it, it's easy to think you're lost and can no longer find the light, thus pushing you further down that path, while in your heart of hearts you know it's crap.
Naib wrote:
yes the progress of sysd is worrying but there is no need to go flying off the rail just have informative debates how to head it off.

You keep changing your tune, yet always there's the thematic refrain of "sysd's progress", much like Microsoft's "progress" with Windows.

I wish you'd just admit you're playing this whole topic, no doubt for the lulz ala OTW; in any event you consistently come out with unsupported nonsense about how great systemd is, along with vaguely reassuring phrases designed to sound as if you're skeptical of it. Just be honest like you were a year or so ago (presumably before you got this assignment): you're in favour of systemd, and you think it's a good idea, and represents progress rather than a colossal dead-end waste of user-time.

Seems to me there's a few users who do that: completely in-line with the strategy espoused by the upstream neo-fascists. *sigh* it's McCreesh all over, just writ larger.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
Yes, it's too hard to maintain a system alone. It's hard even for a dozen of developers.
I read above, steveL wrote that he can patch a sources in any way he likes to get rid of systemd code, but, to be honest, it will become absolutely impossible once systems will own all the linux userland. You will patch it around the clock. It's a way to nowhere.

No. I simply won't use software that can't work without systemd: much easier.

I'm not interested in my desktop competing with some mythical non-existent bells-and-whistles desktop, only to end up being as slow and kludgey as Windows, with 30 "startup" apps.

I'm not interested in daemons written by people who think targetting only one OS makes them a real "developer".

I'm interested in a clean, robust, *nix: that means POSIX, and it means according to the Unix philosophy. Scratch a little harder, and I think you'll find that's what most kernel-developers are interested in, too.

In fact, I see this as a great way to pre-filter sh1t from my system.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

I don't get all this retreat nonsense; when I read your second paragraph I thought you were going to say "Gentoo is already that platform."

Face it: there is nowhere to retreat to. Nor should we back down, "accept the inevitable" nor any of this other defeatist claptrap. They're our machines: we get to decide what goes on them, no-one else.


I remember how arch devs swore that Arch will never adopt systemd as default init. I remember how debian folks said: we will go with sysvinit forever. Where are these promises and vows?
You are really naive if you think Gentoo will be "about a choice" forever. I'll send you a gallon of beer with all my respect if Gentoo will not go in Arch & Debian way in nearest couple of years.
I would be calm if you were a member of the Council, but, unfortunately you are not a member of Council. And your opinion (as well as mine) is nothing for decision-makers.
You looks like brave Don Quixote who going to fight against windmill.
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Shamus397
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just curious to know where these quotes by the Arch & Debian developers (swearing they'd never go SystemD) are--seems they've fallen down the memory hole, at least for me. :P
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

I never said anything about doing a fork: I've repeatedly stated that we don't need to fork, nor will we ever unless Gentoo is Gentoo only in name. In which case we'll have "forked" months before-hand, by simply overriding the bulshytt packages in an overlay.


It may not be a fork in the "whole new distro" sense, but it still is a fork in the code base since the patches likely won't be accepted upstream (Gentoo)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

I don't get all this retreat nonsense; when I read your second paragraph I thought you were going to say "Gentoo is already that platform."

Face it: there is nowhere to retreat to. Nor should we back down, "accept the inevitable" nor any of this other defeatist claptrap. They're our machines: we get to decide what goes on them, no-one else.

Yea, that whole "systemd has won, let's go lick our wounds" crap has to stop.

For that matter, I'm still not even convinced that it will continue to be a "done deal" even with Redhat. Despite what others seem to think, I'm sure that in important IT settings where it really matters (Redhat's bread and butter) adoption of RHEL 7 has been very sparse at best, and I'm sure that they'll be way more reluctant about updating as they are even under normal circumstances. Everything there is to be adverse too in systemd gets multiplied by 1000 when it comes to servers, and there are zero advantages. When it does start getting rolled out and the realities of it start hitting home, I think sysadmins are going to start going ballistic.

I just don't buy that the whole IT world is just going to roll over and accept the nightmarish bullshit like journalctl etc with no benefit at all. I sure wouldn't. My company sells a server based system delivered as a VM appliance, currently using CentOS 6.5. I'm not sure what we may end up using down the road but I can guarantee you it won't be using systemd.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="tld"]
steveL wrote:

Yea, that whole "systemd has won, let's go lick our wounds" crap has to stop.


While that may sound like what I've been advocating, it's really not. There are political battles, and there are encounters with the real world. So far systemd has been doing a wonderful/awful job of the political battles, and that's where the whole "won" thing has come from - politics. They have yet to face their real enemy - the real world. I say rather than "lick our wounds" we "bide our time" and be ready when the systemd fan starts getting really brown and odorous. When that happens, the alternatives need to be still working and still have an extensive userbase. The correct response will not be, "I told you so," but rather, "Here is something tried-and-true that will get you back up and running." (The "I told you so"s can go over on Phoronix and the like.)

As for "bide our time", I'd rather not spend energy in shouting matches, there are many many other better things to do. There is some very interesting init system work going on elsewhere here that's a much better use of time than debating, for instance. Then there is the real world too, but day-job and after.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
You are really naive if you think Gentoo will be "about a choice" forever. I'll send you a gallon of beer with all my respect if Gentoo will not go in Arch & Debian way in nearest couple of years.

I never said anything about the "Linux is about choice" mantra, much as I agree with it, and I'd imagine most of the core kernel devs do as well at heart, based on reading of earlier lkml. Can't speak for the later incomers, especially the documentation people who used their position to start lucrative careers, and don't have that same experience.

My point simply is that if you want to bring up a Linux install, then you have to start with several stages way before you get to glib.

The technical points for the distro are that:

a) releng, like every other part of the distro, is understaffed. Simply throwing people at the problem who don't really understand the issues, isn't going to help, nor would it be accepted by releng (and rightly so.) In fact even adding competent people would merely increase the communication overhead, as Brooks established 40 years ago, and hobble a tightly-knit team that is working well.

b) like it or not, it is a from-source distro. (if you don't like it, wtf are you doing here, anyhow? ;)
As such it has historically offered more flexibility and yes, choice, than other distros. That is its USP (Unique Selling Point), the killer feature that is quintessential to Gentoo. The trade-off is that you get to make the decisions, and deal with the trickier upgrades that a bindist simply papers over with another 6-monthly release.

Losing the ability to bring up an openrc-based system, as well as a systemd one, would be a regression.

There are far too many backend network-admins using it (with no publicity) for that to fly well. For boring reasons, like deterministic booting, and flexibility over what components they choose, and are responsible for.

c) Given both of the above, and the fact that openrc requires much less in the way of dependencies, so that a stage can be released without releng effectively adding several major new headaches to their schedule, which would impact the timeliness of delivery (so that daily and weekly snapshots were much less frequent, and much more prone to simply not appearing), in technical production terms, it makes zero sense to switch the default.

In fact all it offers are negatives for Gentoo.

It kills off its in-house project, as well as making it far less relevant to whole swathes of users, and indeed downstream bindists.

Suddenly it's just the same as redhat, so why not install fedora from binaries and be done? After all the same "cool kids" who push you into systemd are the same "cool kids" who've spent the last 10 years sneering at us, first as ricers, then as idiots for waiting for things to compile.

Now we're "fusty traditionalists" "stuck in the past" when we're focussed on lean machines that don't waste cycles: exactly the future landscape of small devices, typically based on ARM.

The truth is they're scared of us.
Quote:
And your opinion (as well as mine) is nothing for decision-makers.
You looks like brave Don Quixote who going to fight against windmill.

Lul; don't say that. I intend to use your work as the basis for kde-lean ;-) That's why I got upset at you being "defeatist": sorry about the outburst.

Anyhow, like I said, I'm not tilting at windmills. I'm simply not letting crap into my production-line. A swiss army-knife is simply no use to a professional, nor is it to a home-user trying to put up shelves, let alone build their own house.

Further, not all the "decision-makers" in Gentoo are that stupid: some of them even care about the distro and its users, as that's where they came from, and that's who helps them look good, week in and week out.

edit: Brooks ref; explain USP


Last edited by steveL on Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:22 pm; edited 3 times in total
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