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Budoka
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:23 am    Post subject: Considering changing distro from Gentoo to ~ Reply with quote

First let me say that I have been very happy with Gentoo over the years for many reasons.

The support on the forums is excellent and has never let me down. Thank you everyone. I like the control I have over my system, a rolling distro, everything compiled etc etc blah blah

But there is one thing about Gentoo that just drives me insane and it is enough to make me consider a switch. I have had so many instances of a world update breaking something and then I spend days and weeks trying to sort it out.

Yes I know it makes for a great learning tool for linux to figure this stuff out and yes I expect it to happen if I am hammering the sh*t out of my system with all sorts of packages experimental or otherwise but that is not my case.

I run what I consider to be a stable system. I rarely if ever add packages because I have what I need and I most certainly don't play with my machine to see if I can break it.

I run my world update daily so it isn't the case that I am letting stuff pile up.

Yet without fail, and often enough that it is a problem, I will do an update and bamn. stuff breaks.

This leads me to think that there isn't any "stable" Gentoo environment or that there isn't any adequate Q&A/Stress testing on packages before they are pushed out. Yes I know everyone is a volunteer and I do appreciate the hard work.

Are my expectations unreasonable?

Does this happen in Arch Linux as well?
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Perfect Gentleman
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've been using Arch Linux for couple of years, and don't have any problems with it.
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schorsch_76
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the first months i had done world updates every day. In the last 9 month i changed that behaviour to "eix-sync && glsa-check -l"

It saves you some time and hastle and enables you to just work with your system. Once a month i do a world update or when a glsa affects my system i do a "glsa-check -f affected" . See steveL's tips [1]

On a second realtime testing partition i do world updates all 3 month. glsa's are fix when i see them after an update. The world update is run all 2-3 month. There is a classical "emerge -1 portage" and after it "emerge -uDN world" done.

In conclusion: Just run your machine and fix the security holes. Update once a month.

[1] https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-529919.html
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OmegaSW
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Considering changing distro from Gentoo to ~ Reply with quote

Budoka wrote:
First let me say that I have been very happy with Gentoo over the years for many reasons.

The support on the forums is excellent and has never let me down. Thank you everyone. I like the control I have over my system, a rolling distro, everything compiled etc etc blah blah

But there is one thing about Gentoo that just drives me insane and it is enough to make me consider a switch. I have had so many instances of a world update breaking something and then I spend days and weeks trying to sort it out.

Yes I know it makes for a great learning tool for linux to figure this stuff out and yes I expect it to happen if I am hammering the sh*t out of my system with all sorts of packages experimental or otherwise but that is not my case.

I run what I consider to be a stable system. I rarely if ever add packages because I have what I need and I most certainly don't play with my machine to see if I can break it.

I run my world update daily so it isn't the case that I am letting stuff pile up.

Yet without fail, and often enough that it is a problem, I will do an update and bamn. stuff breaks.

This leads me to think that there isn't any "stable" Gentoo environment or that there isn't any adequate Q&A/Stress testing on packages before they are pushed out. Yes I know everyone is a volunteer and I do appreciate the hard work.

Are my expectations unreasonable?

Does this happen in Arch Linux as well?


I've been using Gentoo for almost 3 months now, and I have yet to run into a system breaking issue with a world update. Unlike Arch, when a package does break in Gentoo, the server keeps several old versions of the same package for you to downgrade to where as in Arch they don't. That means that in Arch, if you had happen to clean out your cache, you're SOL unless you find an Arch mirror that's not up to date.

So what broke for you btw? I'm on a KDE/Systemd/LVM setup, and I've been rock solid stable. I think that as more and more software adopt Systemd as a dependency (upower is an example), a lot of things will be pron to breakage for people that remain on OpenRC sadly. :(
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Considering changing distro from Gentoo to ~ Reply with quote

Budoka wrote:
But there is one thing about Gentoo that just drives me insane and it is enough to make me consider a switch. I have had so many instances of a world update breaking something and then I spend days and weeks trying to sort it out.

Budoka ... while switching is of course an option let me offer you some context:

In my own experience this breakage is rare. That is not to say your experience is isolated, certainly a look at the forums will corroborate your particular experience, people do have issues, but I think there is a number of reasons for this.

First on this list of reasons would be "choice of software". I could probably isolate the major issues reported in the forum and group them into two or three sets relating to specific choices of software. Gentoo doesn't protect you from the choices you make (and sometimes ... the choices you don't make) but as there is the capacity to choose one configuration over another some of these issues can be mitigated against. As I said I rarely have issues, and those issues I do encounter are often minor (like net-analyzer/macchanger being bumped when it breaks netifrc support). I spend very little time dealing with the software and most of the time using it ... and I attribute this to *my* choices (and the quality of that particular software).

Secondly, while other distributions will perhaps be easier at the outset, certainly at the installation stage, you will likewise have issues on updating. I, and others, have gentoo installs that have been rolling updates for longer than twelve years. So, while some time is needed to install, etc, in the wider scheme of things that investment is paid back in not having to re-install/reconfigure every {x} years. The "choice of software" plays some role here, as whatever is installed will need some level of maintenance, but at least those choices are available.

Thirdly, what is gentoo exactly, its no different to the rest of the FOSS ecosystem ... its software is derived from upstream and so reflects this upstream and the wider ecosystem. That's worth keeping in mind in relation to the question of "choice of software", users also play some part in this wider ecosystem in that what they choose, support, advocate, etc, etc, feeds back into the environment.

I could go on but for brevity's sake I'll leave it at that ...

Budoka wrote:
This leads me to think that there isn't any "stable" Gentoo environment or that there isn't any adequate Q&A/Stress testing on packages before they are pushed out.

There isn't a Q&A team any longer ... I believe it was disbanded recently (not sure what the reasons for this were, or what is planed for the future). Keep in mind that developers pretty much have free reign to do as they please (within their specific domains) so again "choice of software" will effect what level of "stability" you acquire.

Budoka wrote:
Are my expectations unreasonable?

No, not really, but keep in mind that there isn't some one power regulating the ebb and flow of commits to the tree ... there are many hands at work, and many (sometimes conflicting) ideas as to what Q&A means, the direction things should take, and how to achieve it.

best ... khay
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gerard27
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You didn't show your emerge --info.
I have a hunch your problems are caused by too many USE flags enabled.
And then there's the choice of profile.

I am running unstable for about 2 years now and the breakage is minimal.
I have a few useflags set globally in make.conf and my profile supplies a few indispensable ones.
I make use of /etc/portage/package.use to put useflags on a per package basis where needed.

The above might merit checking what you have enabled in your system.
Ufed is a nice program that shows you all the useflags.
Gerard.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It also depends on what you call "breakage".

If having portage complain for slot conflict is a breakage, yep, i understand your frustration then.

But for me breakage is when portage is doing the work, but the result of the work is a dead program or system. And after all those years i'm sure the breakage number is still below 10! (by memory i remember e2fsprogs update breaking wget and mpfr update breaking gcc only).
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Logicien
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With ArchLinux, you can compile often several flavours of a source package if you have a binary package problem, thank's to AUR and ABS.

Being a sources distribution have surely advantages that could make a user choose it over a generic binaries distribution. The drawback of the install time longer with a sources distribution is understandable due to compilation.

Emerge show time what will be done when install or upgrade packages is longer than any binary packages manager due to the exponential calculation of dependancies between USE flags in the world favorites packages and their dependancies. That is understandable too.

In a binaries distribution all that is done by each package maintener. In Gentoo, mainteners give a default setup in the ebuild. Some USE flags (de)activation remove any bug report validation. In a certain manner, cooking Gentoo is a risky task. This is understandable too.

Speed up emerge and reduce breakages, even if something must be sacrifice, would be great benefit features of the Gentoo sources distribution in my opinion. Imagine manage a sources distribution as easy than a binaries one. Time consomption matter mutch mostly only when the work is harder.

Benefits depend on human resources, expertises, money, etc. It cannot be done by magic.
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Budoka
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schorsch_76 wrote:
In the first months i had done world updates every day. In the last 9 month i changed that behaviour to "eix-sync && glsa-check -l"

It saves you some time and hastle and enables you to just work with your system. Once a month i do a world update or when a glsa affects my system i do a "glsa-check -f affected" . See steveL's tips [1]

On a second realtime testing partition i do world updates all 3 month. glsa's are fix when i see them after an update. The world update is run all 2-3 month. There is a classical "emerge -1 portage" and after it "emerge -uDN world" done.

In conclusion: Just run your machine and fix the security holes. Update once a month.

[1] https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-529919.html


I think this is a good strategy. I'll give it a shot.
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Budoka
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
It also depends on what you call "breakage".

If having portage complain for slot conflict is a breakage, yep, i understand your frustration then.

But for me breakage is when portage is doing the work, but the result of the work is a dead program or system. And after all those years i'm sure the breakage number is still below 10! (by memory i remember e2fsprogs update breaking wget and mpfr update breaking gcc only).


Yes that is indeed what I mean. I have only had portage bork my system once and I was able to get it fixed quite quickly.
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Budoka
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Considering changing distro from Gentoo to ~ Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Budoka wrote:
But there is one thing about Gentoo that just drives me insane and it is enough to make me consider a switch. I have had so many instances of a world update breaking something and then I spend days and weeks trying to sort it out.

Budoka ... while switching is of course an option let me offer you some context:

In my own experience this breakage is rare. That is not to say your experience is isolated, certainly a look at the forums will corroborate your particular experience, people do have issues, but I think there is a number of reasons for this.

First on this list of reasons would be "choice of software". I could probably isolate the major issues reported in the forum and group them into two or three sets relating to specific choices of software. Gentoo doesn't protect you from the choices you make (and sometimes ... the choices you don't make) but as there is the capacity to choose one configuration over another some of these issues can be mitigated against. As I said I rarely have issues, and those issues I do encounter are often minor (like net-analyzer/macchanger being bumped when it breaks netifrc support). I spend very little time dealing with the software and most of the time using it ... and I attribute this to *my* choices (and the quality of that particular software).

Secondly, while other distributions will perhaps be easier at the outset, certainly at the installation stage, you will likewise have issues on updating. I, and others, have gentoo installs that have been rolling updates for longer than twelve years. So, while some time is needed to install, etc, in the wider scheme of things that investment is paid back in not having to re-install/reconfigure every {x} years. The "choice of software" plays some role here, as whatever is installed will need some level of maintenance, but at least those choices are available.

Thirdly, what is gentoo exactly, its no different to the rest of the FOSS ecosystem ... its software is derived from upstream and so reflects this upstream and the wider ecosystem. That's worth keeping in mind in relation to the question of "choice of software", users also play some part in this wider ecosystem in that what they choose, support, advocate, etc, etc, feeds back into the environment.

I could go on but for brevity's sake I'll leave it at that ...

Budoka wrote:
This leads me to think that there isn't any "stable" Gentoo environment or that there isn't any adequate Q&A/Stress testing on packages before they are pushed out.

There isn't a Q&A team any longer ... I believe it was disbanded recently (not sure what the reasons for this were, or what is planed for the future). Keep in mind that developers pretty much have free reign to do as they please (within their specific domains) so again "choice of software" will effect what level of "stability" you acquire.

Budoka wrote:
Are my expectations unreasonable?

No, not really, but keep in mind that there isn't some one power regulating the ebb and flow of commits to the tree ... there are many hands at work, and many (sometimes conflicting) ideas as to what Q&A means, the direction things should take, and how to achieve it.

best ... khay


Thanks and I agree with everything you wrote. My problem is that my choice in software is fairly conservative. Also what I find breaks the most are generally packages that came with the base install of gentoo not packages that I installed myself. The recent dbus fiasco comes immediately to mind.
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schorsch_76
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: Considering changing distro from Gentoo to ~ Reply with quote

Budoka wrote:
The recent dbus fiasco comes immediately to mind.


DBUS fiasko? What DBUS fiasko? 8O :?:

Just for your inforamtion:
I basicly run "oldschool" systems. All "new fancy stuff" is hold outside. masked are systemd/gtk3/gnome3/udev. Profile 1. All additional useflags are manually set. Network settings in conf.d/net. wpa config files managed manually. I can use my laptop easily abroad, i have different firewall rules and different wpa-config files. I use i3 as DE and eudev for devices. udev upstream is to tight bound to systemd and changes to heavily.

What is your general system "policy" for you to work?
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Considering changing distro from Gentoo to ~ Reply with quote

schorsch_76 wrote:
Budoka wrote:
The recent dbus fiasco comes immediately to mind.

DBUS fiasko? What DBUS fiasko?

schorsch_76 ... I think Budoka means this.

Budoka wrote:
Thanks and I agree with everything you wrote. My problem is that my choice in software is fairly conservative. Also what I find breaks the most are generally packages that came with the base install of gentoo not packages that I installed myself. The recent dbus fiasco comes immediately to mind.

Budoka ... you're welcome. Well, I did say "and sometimes ... the choices you don't make" and that there is "the capacity to choose one configuration over another". Some of these choices are not the default and sometimes they involve going against that default. I don't have dbus installed, nor udev, and things function perfectly fine without them, but I had to take on the task of replacing these components with others. That of course is a judgement on those defaults, and the decisions made, but I don't imagine that everyone would be satisfied if things were otherwise.

As I said above gentoo is a reflection of the wider ecosystem, I exist in a small niche of that ecosystem and am untypical in that this ecosystem is becoming increasingly homogeneric.

best ... khay
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Budoka
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
You didn't show your emerge --info.
I have a hunch your problems are caused by too many USE flags enabled.
And then there's the choice of profile.

I am running unstable for about 2 years now and the breakage is minimal.
I have a few useflags set globally in make.conf and my profile supplies a few indispensable ones.
I make use of /etc/portage/package.use to put useflags on a per package basis where needed.

The above might merit checking what you have enabled in your system.
Ufed is a nice program that shows you all the useflags.
Gerard.


Quote:
# emerge --info
Portage 2.2.8-r1 (default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop, gcc-4.7.3, glibc-2.17, 3.14.5-hardened-r2 x86_64)
=================================================================
System uname: Linux-3.14.5-hardened-r2-x86_64-Intel-R-_Core-TM-_i7-2675QM_CPU_@_2.20GHz-with-gentoo-2.2
KiB Mem: 8090952 total, 3932308 free
KiB Swap: 9437180 total, 9437180 free
Timestamp of tree: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 02:00:01 +0000
ld GNU ld (GNU Binutils) 2.23.2
app-shells/bash: 4.2_p45
dev-java/java-config: 2.2.0
dev-lang/python: 2.7.6, 3.3.3
dev-util/cmake: 2.8.12.2
dev-util/pkgconfig: 0.28
sys-apps/baselayout: 2.2
sys-apps/openrc: 0.12.4
sys-apps/sandbox: 2.6-r1
sys-devel/autoconf: 2.13, 2.69
sys-devel/automake: 1.12.6, 1.13.4
sys-devel/binutils: 2.23.2
sys-devel/gcc: 4.7.3-r1
sys-devel/gcc-config: 1.7.3
sys-devel/libtool: 2.4.2
sys-devel/make: 3.82-r4
sys-kernel/linux-headers: 3.13 (virtual/os-headers)
sys-libs/glibc: 2.17
Repositories: gentoo sublime-text
ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="amd64"
ACCEPT_LICENSE="* -@EULA"
CBUILD="x86_64-pc-linux-gnu"
CFLAGS="-O2 -march=native -pipe"
CHOST="x86_64-pc-linux-gnu"
CONFIG_PROTECT="/etc /usr/share/config /usr/share/easy-rsa /usr/share/gnupg/qualified.txt /var/lib/hsqldb"
CONFIG_PROTECT_MASK="/etc/ca-certificates.conf /etc/dconf /etc/env.d /etc/fonts/fonts.conf /etc/gconf /etc/gentoo-release /etc/revdep-rebuild /etc/sandbox.d /etc/terminfo /etc/texmf/language.dat.d /etc/texmf/language.def.d /etc/texmf/updmap.d /etc/texmf/web2c"
CXXFLAGS="-O2 -march=native -pipe"
DISTDIR="/usr/portage/distfiles"
FCFLAGS="-O2 -pipe"
FEATURES="assume-digests binpkg-logs config-protect-if-modified distlocks ebuild-locks fixlafiles merge-sync news parallel-fetch preserve-libs protect-owned sandbox sfperms strict unknown-features-warn unmerge-logs unmerge-orphans userfetch userpriv usersandbox usersync"
FFLAGS="-O2 -pipe"
GENTOO_MIRRORS="rsync://mirrors.rit.edu/gentoo/ ftp://mirrors.rit.edu/gentoo/ http://mirrors.rit.edu/gentoo/"
LANG="en_US.utf8"
LDFLAGS="-Wl,-O1 -Wl,--as-needed"
MAKEOPTS="-j4"
PKGDIR="/usr/portage/packages"
PORTAGE_CONFIGROOT="/"
PORTAGE_RSYNC_OPTS="--recursive --links --safe-links --perms --times --omit-dir-times --compress --force --whole-file --delete --stats --human-readable --timeout=180 --exclude=/distfiles --exclude=/local --exclude=/packages"
PORTAGE_TMPDIR="/var/tmp"
PORTDIR="/usr/portage"
PORTDIR_OVERLAY="/var/lib/layman/sublime-text"
SYNC="rsync://rsync.jp.gentoo.org/gentoo-portage"
USE="64bit X a52 aac acl acpi additions alsa amd64 anthy berkdb bindist bluetooth branding bzip2 cairo capi cdda cdr chrome chromium cjk clamav clamd clamdtop cli consolekit corefonts cpufreq_bench cracklib crypt cryptsetup cups cxx dbus dhcpcd dri dts dvd dvdr emboss encode examples exif fam firefox firefox-bookmarks flac font-styles fontconfig fontforge fonts fortran game game-engine games gd gdb gdbm gif gles gpm grub gtk gtk2 gtk3 hddtemp ibus iconv imap introspection ios ios-vout iostats ipod iproute2 iptables ipv6 john jpeg kde keymap kipi laptop lcms ldap libnotify librsync-bundled lm_sensors lock logrotate lua mad mmx mng modemmanager modules mp3 mp4 mpeg mplayer multilib mutt ncurses netlink networkmanager nls nmap nmap-update nptl nss offensive ogg opengl openmp openvpn pam pango pcre pdf pgp php png policykit powersave powertop ppds ppp qt qt-bundled qt-dbus qt-faststart qt-static qt3support qt4 qthelp rar readline rsa samba sdl session sip sipim skype smart smartcard spell sse sse2 ssl startup-notification svg syslog tcpd test-programs thunar thunderbird tiff tor tor-hardening tordns truetype type3 udev udisks ufw unicode upower usb virtualbox vlc vorbis webcam wext wifi win32 wxwidgets x264 xcb xfconf xml xv xvid zip zlib" ABI_X86="64" ALSA_CARDS="ali5451 als4000 atiixp atiixp-modem bt87x ca0106 cmipci emu10k1x ens1370 ens1371 es1938 es1968 fm801 hda-intel intel8x0 intel8x0m maestro3 trident usb-audio via82xx via82xx-modem ymfpci" APACHE2_MODULES="authn_core authz_core socache_shmcb unixd actions alias auth_basic authn_alias authn_anon authn_dbm authn_default authn_file authz_dbm authz_default authz_groupfile authz_host authz_owner authz_user autoindex cache cgi cgid dav dav_fs dav_lock deflate dir disk_cache env expires ext_filter file_cache filter headers include info log_config logio mem_cache mime mime_magic negotiation rewrite setenvif speling status unique_id userdir usertrack vhost_alias" CALLIGRA_FEATURES="kexi words flow plan sheets stage tables krita karbon braindump author" CAMERAS="ptp2" COLLECTD_PLUGINS="df interface irq load memory rrdtool swap syslog" ELIBC="glibc" GPSD_PROTOCOLS="ashtech aivdm earthmate evermore fv18 garmin garmintxt gpsclock itrax mtk3301 nmea ntrip navcom oceanserver oldstyle oncore rtcm104v2 rtcm104v3 sirf superstar2 timing tsip tripmate tnt ublox ubx" GRUB_PLATFORMS="emu gentoo_platforms_efi-32 gentoo_platforms_efi-64 pc" INPUT_DEVICES="keyboard mouse evdev" KERNEL="linux" LCD_DEVICES="bayrad cfontz cfontz633 glk hd44780 lb216 lcdm001 mtxorb ncurses text" LIBREOFFICE_EXTENSIONS="presenter-console presenter-minimizer" LINGUAS="en en_US ja ja_JP" OFFICE_IMPLEMENTATION="libreoffice" PHP_TARGETS="php5-5" PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python2_7" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_3" RUBY_TARGETS="ruby19 ruby20" USERLAND="GNU" VIDEO_CARDS="intel" XTABLES_ADDONS="quota2 psd pknock lscan length2 ipv4options ipset ipp2p iface geoip fuzzy condition tee tarpit sysrq steal rawnat logmark ipmark dhcpmac delude chaos account"
Unset: CPPFLAGS, CTARGET, EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS, INSTALL_MASK, LC_ALL, PORTAGE_BUNZIP2_COMMAND, PORTAGE_COMPRESS, PORTAGE_COMPRESS_FLAGS, PORTAGE_RSYNC_EXTRA_OPTS, USE_PYTHON
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gerard27
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Budoka,
My hunch was right.
There's no need for most of the useflags you have.
An important one is missing though:"threads". It can be enabled globally since it's used by many programs.
In all ebuilds you'll find a line that starts with "IUSE" which contains necessary useflags.
Do you really need a hardened profile?
Unless you're running a server it will only cause problems.
I've been running Gentoo exclusively for over 10 years,do banking and shopping with it,never any problem.

Editing /etc/portage files I do with app-misc/mc.

If you decide to clean up your make.conf you'll have to run
Code:

emerge -e world

And maybe
Code:

emerge -e system


Gentoo doesn't make the programs we use except for baselayout,openrc ,portage etc.
Sometimes upstream screws up and the Gentoo dev doesn't catch it.
After all to err is human.

Hope this is of use to you.
Gerard.
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To install Gentoo I use sysrescuecd.Based on Gentoo,has firefox to browse Gentoo docs and mc to browse (and edit) files.
The same disk can be used for 32 and 64 bit installs.
You can follow the Handbook verbatim.
http://www.sysresccd.org/Download
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
There's no need for most of the useflags you have.

gerard ... while its true that there is often no need to define these useflags globally, defining them isn't in itself a cause of problems. In the above its more an issue of what these useflags will entail (ie, the dependencies, and specific "software choices" involved).

gerard82 wrote:
Do you really need a hardened profile? Unless you're running a server it will only cause problems.

With a hardened profile the major change will be that the toolchain will have PIE/SSP enabled and some useflags enabled/disabled (such as -jit, +urandom), these will have a (minor) performance penalty but they shouldn't cause any major issues (at least not those Budoka has reported). In fact SSP will be enabled by default for >=gcc-4.8.3 regardless of the profile used.

best ... khay
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ericbee
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An Arch update left my system unusable, and it really wasn't all too uncommon. That is why I left it a few years ago. I run unstable packages on Gentoo by default and my issues have never been that serious.
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Budoka
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
Hi Budoka,
My hunch was right.
There's no need for most of the useflags you have.
An important one is missing though:"threads". It can be enabled globally since it's used by many programs.
In all ebuilds you'll find a line that starts with "IUSE" which contains necessary useflags.
Do you really need a hardened profile?
Unless you're running a server it will only cause problems.
I've been running Gentoo exclusively for over 10 years,do banking and shopping with it,never any problem.

Editing /etc/portage files I do with app-misc/mc.

If you decide to clean up your make.conf you'll have to run
Code:

emerge -e world

And maybe
Code:

emerge -e system


Gentoo doesn't make the programs we use except for baselayout,openrc ,portage etc.
Sometimes upstream screws up and the Gentoo dev doesn't catch it.
After all to err is human.

Hope this is of use to you.
Gerard.


I recently switched to the hardened kernel so changed my profile as well thus the corresponding uses but may re-visit whether or not it is beneficial to me.

What exactly does the use "threads" do? This is the first time it has been brought to my attention.
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Budoka
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everyone. There is some good advice in this thread. I'll stick it out with Gentoo for the moment. As I have said I have been generally happy with it the past couple of years and the forums have yet to let me down.

I have no interest in returning to a binary system so I guess my options would be limited anyway as far as alternative choices. omeone mentioned Funtoo which is Gentoo based. Maybe I'll take a look at that.

The comment about Arch borking the users system is a bit disconcerting so may avoid it for the moment.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: Considering changing distro from Gentoo to ~ Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
There isn't a Q&A team any longer ... I believe it was disbanded recently (not sure what the reasons for this were, or what is planed for the future).


The Council has disbanded the old QA team with the purpose of instating the new QA team; there are efforts like Portage tree wide testing going on, as well as attempts to get Tinderbox up again for further testing which should yield even more bugs.
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can absolutely understand the frustration.

There are a lot of complicated tree-wide conversions going on, e.g. python-r1 and multilib eclasses which affect all users. We hope that the dependency problems will get less after these conversions are done.

And yes, the QA team currently does not work on a tinderbox.
Quote:

2014-03-26 21:04:11 @Tommy[D] summary for the "QA tinderbox": we need the hardware, a concept to use it and someone doing the work for it, so until we got those donated, nothing to vote/discuss on
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are working on Tinderbox, that quote is old. QA's AutoRepoman covers dependency problems; which get fixed within hours, other warnings and errors are tracked as well.
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
We are working on Tinderbox, that quote is old. QA's AutoRepoman covers dependency problems; which get fixed within hours, other warnings and errors are tracked as well.

No, QA is not working on a (large scale) tinderbox. Diego is working on it.

Until you fix your understanding of a tinderbox I doubt a lot will happen. "repoman full" is nowhere near a tinderbox.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are working on it, as said before. Old QA team's Diego no longer updates it per output and commit history.
You are confused about the QA team's current work, as you are quoting and misrepresenting outdated comments.
It a lot more than "AutoRepoman", which is a small part of the whole process that extensively build tests packages QA-wise.
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GSF1200S
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

USE="VIDEO_CARDS X acl alsa amd64 berkdb bindist branding bzip2 cli consolekit cracklib crypt cxx dbus dri gdbm gif gstreamer gtk gudev hardened iconv ipv6 jpeg justify mmx modules ncurses nls nptl nss openmp pam pax_kernel pcre png policykit readline session sound sse sse2 ssl startup-notification tcpd udev unicode urandom xcb xorg xtpax zlib"

I too think use flags are part of your problem. While Im sure more limited examples exist, the above is my USE flags as per emerge --info. This is on a desktop gentoo-hardened setup.

I use a setup that aims to be simple. The more packages that depend on other packages, the more software you run, the more complicated the update process.

There is also something to be said for innately more "stable" software. There is a big difference between Openbox and KDE. Openbox is one package with virtually no dependencies and isnt updated often. KDE is many components and it is updated frequently. KDE is just one example- now add a multilib setup, wine, overlays, mixing stable and unmasked packages (~amd64), and things become more complicated.

Obviously guys here run full-blown KDE installs with elaborate other requirements, but then they will necessarily invest more upgrade time and run into more issues. Most of them know the ins-and-outs and so it isnt that bad. Ive been using Gentoo for years, but I will confess that more elaborate setups required more time than I wanted to spend. My current system is completely painless to update, and also has a smaller attack surface (at least in theory).

For full blown elaborate setups, I have an Arch install. I may draw the ire of others, but I think Arch is the best choice if youre looking for another distro (so long as you dont mind systemd); ABS allows source compilation when needed, the AUR is massive and awesome, and updates are painless. As another poster said, ABS can give you virtually any version of a package (if you need a certain version to avoid upstream bugs).

I think Gentoo and Arch can peacefully coexist. I think Gentoo is at its best when it is setup for a specific rather than a general purpose (though it can certainly do both). Gentoo excels with security, configurability, and rolling on a stable set of packages. Arch matches Gentoo if Gentoo rolls on unstable, Arch has binary ease of use, and excels at "trying stuff". I love both distros for different reasons...

Hope this helps..
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