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Perfect Gentleman
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:10 am    Post subject: Skype 4.3 no sound without pulseaudio. Reply with quote

Microsoft dropped alsa support in new version of Skype, 4.3, so the question: ii there any chance to have sound in new Skype without pulseaudio?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The solution from their FAQ is outdated and I don't have find a solution so far.

I encourage anyone that reads this thread to go at the end of the below skype web page:

https://support.skype.com/en/faq/FA10964/can-i-change-the-sound-system-used-by-skype-for-linux?intcmp=blogs-_-generic-click-_-skype-4-3-for-linux#disable_pulse

Then

Did this answer your question? NO <-- CLIC
It did not solve my problem <-- CLIC



Hoping that their support notice it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:33 pm    Post subject: tox and alternatives: skype requires pulseaudio now Reply with quote

Heads up: net-im/skype-4.3.0.37 requires pulseaudio

Mask >skype-4.3 if you do not want pulseaudio.
For only chatting, you will probably find better programs than skype anyway...

Edit: Post edited and subject changed since discussion is now on alternatives.


Last edited by mv on Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:38 pm    Post subject: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

Heh.


I'm still using KMess, but that only works with contacts who 'converted' their MSN-accounts to work with the devil — er, Skype I mean. I never do calls, but even so, I sadly have a dependency on Skype for I have some contacts I can only stay in contact with that way.

I'm hoping that Tox will become something I can convert those people into using, but I doubt that a lot. If only Skype opened up the protocol for people to have a choice...


It seems this new version also comes with stuff such as huge buttons, which for some reason are the style everywhere I go these days. It's horrible! Will probably stay with the previous version because of just that for now at least.

I guess it's because of them mobiles... meh! Good for them?


I digress, but I really do wish I could get rid of Skype soon, fer good.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tox sounds really good and might indeed become a free replacement for skype.

There is even a gentoo overlay for tox, but this is hidden in some download script: Why hasn't this been made public (and e.g. put into the "official" layman list) so that you can find the overlay with zugaina or eix-remote? So for people looking for this overlay, here is the instruction how to get the overlay with layman ("stolen" from some download script):
Code:
layman -f -o https://raw.github.com/fr0stycl34r/gentoo-overlay-tox/master/repository.xml -a tox-overlay


The big disadvantage of tox: It seems that there is currently no tox version available for android. (Or is it the same story as with the overlay, i.e. it just has not been made public on the "usual" place - which in case of android should be the google play store?)

Does anybody know whether an android version is planned or even already available?

It is really a pity: There is this great free RedPhone for Android and this great free Tox for PCs, but the important case of communication by smartphone to somebody on a PC still seems to be covered by skype, only. Otherwise, and if things are easily usable, I could certainly convince all my communication partners to switch to the free alternative.

Things are getting urgent: Who knows how long the ancient skype versoins can still be used? MS certainly has some plans to push the new versions with advertisements for PC users - Android users are already lost.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There seems to be "Antox" available for android.

But it seems as with the overlay: It is unclear how to install it. There is mentioning of adding some repositories to some F-Droid (as if any "normal" android user would be able to find out what this is: It is not available on google play store, either) (or even worse: build from source which of course only specialists can do - I did not succeed getting the required android studio to run on gentoo, and less experienced users have certainly no chance at all).

It's a pity: With that hard installation, I can certainly not convince my partners to change.

Really, such a good software, just lacking the appropriate installation/usage instructions for getting known to the public...

RedPhone made this much smarter, but there is no PC version of RedPhone since it is phone number based...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
It's a pity: With that hard installation, I can certainly not convince my partners to change.


So the higher the skill the poorer the software you must use?

If it's complex for your partners, it is no more less complex for you : try to explain them the problem, as it is no more easier for you.
Using systemd for you to use skype is just like if you ask them to install linux to use some linux software instead of skype ; or if you ask them to sell their pc to buy mac so everyone can use apple software.
Because it is what you are facing now, using skype you must use systemd, asking you a too big change.

Two possible solve
- try running Windows skype version in wine (i don't know if it will works)
- virtualize a systemd base distro with skype in your gentoo, not really awseome if you wish wait for call the virtual must always run
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you posted, Microsoft have now updated that FAQ page, removed the text that mentioned making "autospawn = no" in ~/.pulse/client.conf to disable PulseAudio, and added text mentioning Skype 4.3 explicitly:

Microsoft wrote:
Skype for Linux supports the PulseAudio and ALSA sound systems. As of version 4.3, the ALSA sound system is no longer supported without PulseAudio.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:

Does anybody know whether an android version is planned or even already available?


Apparently there is

https://wiki.tox.im/Client

I haven't kept up with messaging recently, but for closed groups is an internal jabber or asterisk server not an option? I successfully use CSipSimple on my android with an asterisk server but haven't pushed beyond voip and haven't kept up with asterisk progress for a couple of years or so
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Really, such a good software, just lacking the appropriate installation/usage instructions for getting known to the public...

I haven't been following the development of Tox too closely (even though I have them urges to contribute to it myself), but from what I have read, I have the feeling that it's not pushed into the public too much yet simply because it's in such an early state (or in other words, buggy... buggy buggy buggy).

Here's the todo-list, and the list of different clients, and binaries.

I have no idea what the requirements are for getting an app to the google play thingama-jab, but I would assume it's in them plans. Somehow I feel like having it security audited might be one of them, but I really don't know.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
If it's complex for your partners, it is no more less complex for you

My communications partners are not skilled in computers: They have a windows machine and perhaps a smartphone, and skype "works" for them. If I tell them that this is not a good idea for me for security reasons, I am already considered strange. Maybe I convince them anyway to install another software, but if it is more complicated than "download from android store" or "download from this page" and then the software works out-of-the-box, my chance to convince them is lost; I will certainly not get another try.

It seems that even I am too stupid to use tox: I have installed toxic on the PC and antox on the smartphone. Then on the PC, I entered
Code:
/add [Hex-generated-by-antox] "foo"
(what a mess to type this number manually if you have not chat to communicate... this is a severe inconvience...).
Unfortunately, on the smartphone nothing happened. [reading Wiki and other texts...] Aha, maybe I should have connected to some server first (why is this not the first point in the menu, if this is the first what you have to do?). So, looked up some public server, entered
Code:
/connect [data I looked up
(again, a lot of inconvenience; does one have to type this everytime?)
I received a message that I am connected now. Repeating the above /add command: I get informed that the contact was already added and connected...
Great. Why don't I see anything on the smarphone? Perhaps a typo with the number... checked three times: No, the number was correct.

Trying the other way: Entering
Code:
/myid
and typing the horrible number for a contact on the smartphone - this time I cannot have forgotten "/connect" since there is no such option. (Which server is used in this case? Antox shows me that I am connected... let us hope that it is not lying). After finishing the number: Nothing happens on the pc. Trying twice again: Same result.

So currently, either I made something completely stupid, or tox currently does not work at all, either on the PC or on android.

Just now I saw on some page that antox does not yet support video/voice, currently. If this information is up-to-date (I am not sure, because the antox page seems to suggest that it is ready), it is certainly too early trying to use tox. However, I would like to know anyway what I have done wrong...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv,

Aye. It is (to my understanding) far from ready still, which the video I linked to, although some months old, somewhat touches upon. I believe it also acknowledges the fact that the ID is inconvenient, and there's even some reasoning towards why they are not using some central website to 'translate' them. I think.

I can't really judge the state accurately though, for I've not actually tried it yet. Giving it some more time to mature, I maybe guess, but I'll definitely give it a go soon!


Something I have been wondering for some time now, while following the project from afar, is how little I've seen talk about it here, considering the main(?) git contributor is called irungentoo. -.^

(Willst thou show thyself, lest needst we make a hunt or sorts happening!?)
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
It is (to my understanding) far from ready still

I have expected some bugs, crashes, etc. But seeing happening plainly nothing although servers seem to be running already, is something which I did not expect: As you said, the video is some months old, and it speaks about bugs, not about "currently still completely without any function".
So I agree, it is just too early to judge this project: I just had the wrong impression that it is almost prime-time and they are looking for testers to polish the user-interface or fix some crashes when you do fancy things.
Apparently, it is still far until this stage is reached.
Quote:
which the video I linked to, although some months old, somewhat touches upon.

Yeah, sorry, I watched this video only after my posting...
These IDs will hinder acceptance, although it is clear that they are necessary for security. However, experience shows that you cannot force people to security.
It is necessary to give them a choice, and it is easy to give them a choice: You can offer servers which maintain the id, and for people who want security, produce a second secret which is never published. Then people have 3 choices:
  • No verification at all (with full risk of MITM in case the server is compromised).
  • Verification of a number generated from second secret + ID. Of course, this is only as secure as this number and second secret is: Somebody knowing this number or the secret can still be MITM, with increasing complexity if this number gets longer; once the length of the original ID is reached there is no possibility to become MITM. So one could even make it configurable how "securely" one wants to verify the id.
  • Verification of the full id by a secret channel is of course always possible
Currently, people are forced to the last option, and it is good to strongly encourage them to that option. But if you force this option (especially from the very beginng), the whole system will simply not be accepted by the majority of people: Only some freaks will use it and perhaps some people who have really something to hide, and like torrent or similar things, tox might get an (undeserved) bad reputation rather quickly.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Due to a sound card change I had to to switch from ALSA to PA and managed to get things working just fine now. But the interesting problem is that skype 4.2.x works with PA 5.0 just fine but 4.3 is listed at a connected client from the pulseaudio side but there aren't any sounds coming through. Skype release says that they support PA 3.0 and 4.0 so I'm planning to downgrade PA a version for testing, though it seems weird - anyone else with this kind of a situation?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:

These IDs will hinder acceptance, although it is clear that they are necessary for security. However, experience shows that you cannot force people to security.


You are correct. There is a specification to associate nicknames with Tox ID's through a DNS query to certain websites. The clients should be able to query a certain website that acts like a phonebook of sorts so an end user can enter "foo@toxme.se" or "bar@utox.org" and the program will query those websites and obtain the Tox ID that way. There are several versions of this phonebook-style lookup and each later version focuses more and more on security and preventing MITM attacks. The first version of this DNS lookup can be tested with
Code:
host -t txt groupbot._tox.toxme.se
.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeing as tox is being discussed here, I'd like to post a few links so that people can learn more about it if they so wish.
I'd also like to voice one opinion of mine: I don't think Toxic is a good client to use, especially for your first impression of tox, unless you *NEED* to be in the CLI use it. And I love CLI, I do most of my work in CLI, but I cannot stand toxic in its current state. Try venom or uTox if you want a better experience. In addition, this is alpha software, don't expect everything to work just yet. Sorry if I seem patronising.

Websites:
http://tox.im/ This is the website, it isn't frequently updated. Keep in mind the image there is just a mock up, but most clients are starting to follow it. It presents features that may not yet be implemented!
https://blog.libtoxcore.so/ This is the blog, it is update when it is needed to
http://wiki.tox.im/Main_Page This is the tox wiki. It also isn't updated very often, except for the important pages. A lot of information on it is oudated, but a lot is up to date as well
https://www.toxme.se/ - A tox ID service. Your information ID is public here. The above post explains it a bit
http://utox.org/ - Another tox ID service, your cannot search for an ID here like you can on toxme.se

Key wiki pages:
https://wiki.tox.im/Clients - A page on more or less all the tox clients. Images may be out of date. The table at the bottom is probobally the most important
http://wiki.tox.im/binaries - Here is where you can download the binaries. Probably not what you want. Down the page there is a gentoo overlay for tox + toxic and some automated scripts for tox/toxic/venom which run on most distros (including gentoo)

Githubs:
https://github.com/irungentoo/toxcore - the tox core, irungentoo is the head of tox, it's fitting to be posted on the gentoo forums!
https://github.com/Tox - the tox group, official stuff here.
https://github.com/notsecure/uTox - a new client that is following the mockup, not perfect but is getting there. Runs on windows and linux
https://github.com/Astonex/Antox - Android client, has the most features of them all
https://github.com/lehitoskin/blight - A client written in racket
https://github.com/nurupo/ProjectTox-Qt-GUI - A QT gui for tox, written in, you guessed it, QT. One of the first clients ever.
https://github.com/mahkoh/Xot - Tox re-written in rust
https://github.com/naxuroqa/Venom - one of the most popular clients
for more info, check out the clients wiki page.


Last edited by UrineToxidity on Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Tox sounds really good and might indeed become a free replacement for skype.

There is even a gentoo overlay for tox, but this is hidden in some download script: Why hasn't this been made public (and e.g. put into the "official" layman list) so that you can find the overlay with zugaina or eix-remote? So for people looking for this overlay, here is the instruction how to get the overlay with layman ("stolen" from some download script):
Code:
layman -f -o https://raw.github.com/fr0stycl34r/gentoo-overlay-tox/master/repository.xml -a tox-overlay


The big disadvantage of tox: It seems that there is currently no tox version available for android. (Or is it the same story as with the overlay, i.e. it just has not been made public on the "usual" place - which in case of android should be the google play store?)

Does anybody know whether an android version is planned or even already available?

It is really a pity: There is this great free RedPhone for Android and this great free Tox for PCs, but the important case of communication by smartphone to somebody on a PC still seems to be covered by skype, only. Otherwise, and if things are easily usable, I could certainly convince all my communication partners to switch to the free alternative.

Things are getting urgent: Who knows how long the ancient skype versoins can still be used? MS certainly has some plans to push the new versions with advertisements for PC users - Android users are already lost.

What exactly do you mean by "stolen", and what download script are you talking about?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

urras wrote:
What exactly do you mean by "stolen", and what download script are you talking about?

By "stolen" I meant that I just copied that line from the download script (which had no license so I suppose it is legal to copy this line here).
The script's name was "iqt" and it was one of several recommended download scripts on the Tox Wiki.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
urras wrote:
What exactly do you mean by "stolen", and what download script are you talking about?

By "stolen" I meant that I just copied that line from the download script (which had no license so I suppose it is legal to copy this line here).
The script's name was "iqt" and it was one of several recommended download scripts on the Tox Wiki.


Me and someone else wrote those scripts a few months ago, before the Tox project had Jenkins builds. I honestly doubt that they will work anymore, and almost entirely forgot about them. Do you want me to file a bug so that the Tox overlay can be added to the official layman list?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
I have expected some bugs, crashes, etc. But seeing happening plainly nothing although servers seem to be running already, is something which I did not expect: As you said, the video is some months old, and it speaks about bugs, not about "currently still completely without any function".

I had the impression myself that it was at least somewhat usable, but couldn't really tell for sure. It's unfortunate to learn you had such a bad experience with it!


I finally got to testing some of the clients, namely Toxic (Linux), Venom (Linux), and µTox (VirtualBox Windows 7). Not exactly a high level test since it was just me talking to myself... but it did work, for what it's worth.

Some ebuilds can be found from various overlays here: Zugaina Search for 'Tox', but I did not look into them all. The one for Venom for example is not for the latest git version, so I built that 'manually'. I had some issues with getting Toxic to build for some reason(s), and tried the ebuild from mrueg overlay (tested tox-core from it too).

I'm not a fan of the Venom and µTox GUIs, but I do realise it's pretty early to say, probably, and one of the reasons I still am excited about the project is that I could create my own interface if I really wanted to (that might take some years to become even remotely possible, though, but still!).


I haven't tried the Qt-client yet, for I lack Qt5 (planning to address).

Likewise, I haven't tested Antox since I don't own an Android (or any similar) device, so that's something I can't eally test unless of course I snatch one from an acquaintance of mine.


Thanks for the post, UrineToxidity. Some of those places I've not yet stumbled upon!


Also...

urras wrote:
Do you want me to file a bug so that the Tox overlay can be added to the official layman list?

That should be cool! ^^


Now for something else I haven't tried: https://jitsi.org/ (bug 323819), which has been mentioned a few times in these forums, but I don't think I remember seeing any talk of actual experiences from using it. I figured I'd mention it here again in case someone hasn't bumped into it yet.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

urras wrote:
Do you want me to file a bug so that the Tox overlay can be added to the official layman list?

I guess this would make it more popular (if you want that): At least, for me the (apparent) lack of ebuilds was the main reason I had not tried tox earlier; I guess other gentoo users might think similarly. (Maybe now users will find this thread and thus the overlay, so it is not so bad anymore: This is the reason why I publicly copied the line from the script). Anyway, instructions how to officially announce an overlay are here [Overlay Requests].
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just an FYI, uTox, a GUI client for Tox, now has video calling capabilities. The ebuild is located in the Tox Gentoo overlay at https://github.com/fr0stycl34r/gentoo-overlay-tox (net-im/utox)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zentoo wrote:
The solution from their FAQ is outdated and I don't have find a solution so far.
I encourage anyone that reads this thread to go at the end of the below skype web page:
https://support.skype.com/en/faq/FA10964/can-i-change-the-sound-system-used-by-skype-for-linux?intcmp=blogs-_-generic-click-_-skype-4-3-for-linux#disable_pulse
Then
Did this answer your question? NO <-- CLIC
It did not solve my problem <-- CLIC
Hoping that their support notice it.

Just in case anyone stumbled over this post yet. "Answer is not relevant" seems to be better reason to why it didn't help, at least as long as it's about support for ALSA. ("It didn't solve my problem" means it's a problem with pulseaudio. "Irrelevant" means it's a problem without pulseaudio.)

In the meantime, any ideas about support for jingle in jabber clients?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in serious need for a skype alternative, but we need desktop sharing between multiple people, as well as audio between multiple people.

Tox sounds cool and all, but there doesn't seem to be desktop sharing at all, and I'm not sure about audio conferencing. Frankly I think video conferencing is of minimal use.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
I'm in serious need for a skype alternative, but we need desktop sharing between multiple people, as well as audio between multiple people.

Tox sounds cool and all, but there doesn't seem to be desktop sharing at all, and I'm not sure about audio conferencing. Frankly I think video conferencing is of minimal use.

I've read on the github (somewhere in the issues, forgot where) that they may eventually add in desktop sharing of some sort, like what skype has, the issue is they're focusing on other things at the moment.
Tox is pre-alpha software, but they do plan to get group video and audio working somewhat sooner than what I imagine desktop sharing would be done by, as it's more urgent.
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