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tylerwylie
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:24 pm    Post subject: The Death of Melody Reply with quote

The pop musicians of today didn't grow up listening to jazz like the pop musicians of old, so we saw the idea of strong melodic figures falling out of style. It's just another component in the "degeneration" of music we've seen.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's not wrong, but lack of melody can be forgiven when the rhythm and harmony are strong. Beethoven's 5th Symphony being a great example. It's a repeated rhythm through the movements. Though much of modern pop is just mall music in the worst sense. His critique of Techno and EDM has some validity, but I don't think he's aware of the more musical side of the genres. He nailed rap, it's lacking in so much when it comes to harmony and melody, let alone counterpoint.

There is something lost when musicians aren't exposed to the classical über-genre and jazz. Jazz & classical explore all aspects of melody, harmony, rhythm, and counterpoint. Without really learning "music" in its full sense, the musicians tend to be lacking.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: The Death of Melody Reply with quote

tylerwylie wrote:
The pop musicians of today didn't grow up listening to jazz like the pop musicians of old, so we saw the idea of strong melodic figures falling out of style. It's just another component in the "degeneration" of music we've seen.

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The irony of that monotonic 'analysis' of melody by some opinionated plagiarist with a youtube channel linked to a patreon site is just another component in the degeneration of the internet I've seen, but I digress...

Music's been about fashion since forever, and change to trend for profit is regularly sought, it's an industry as well as an art. I can't get too excited by any of that, music's a personal thing for me. I like what I like, some melodic, some discordant; some from a century ago, some from last month and some for reasons of linkage to times, places and people rather than any particular sonic merit. What I don't and never have given a fuck about in music, is fashion. I guess Disco killed that for me, it broke when I was 17 and within 12 months nobody could get a gig without a mixing desk and mirror-ball for the twinkies to grind under. That was the end of a generation of pub-rock bands and muso's here.

I'd also say that modern rock/pop music in my lifetime was probably more influenced by blues and the fact that bluesmen had to play jazz if they wanted to gig in the '20's through '50's. The resultant fusion of classical via jazz and 'folk' music with the expression of the delta bluesmen is what built the music industry from the '50's to the internet. Now things are even more diverse, so why worry what the MSM is serving up? It's never been easier to avoid it.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: The Death of Melody Reply with quote

ian.au wrote:
I can't get too excited by any of that, music's a personal thing for me. I like what I like, some melodic, some discordant; some from a century ago, some from last month and some for reasons of linkage to times, places and people rather than any particular sonic merit. What I don't and never have given a fuck about in music, is fashion.


++

Well said
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice to hear, nice try. But when the author takes Wagner for an example of melody, I am out. Wrong example: Wagner was the first non-melodic composer, who firstly used key elements of just re-invented effects in the last 20y of pop music.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Nice to hear, nice try. But when the author takes Wagner for an example of melody, I am out. Wrong example: Wagner was the first non-melodic composer, who firstly used key elements of just re-invented effects in the last 20y of pop music.


He wasn't the first.

But better examples of melodic composers would be the Austrians, Mozart & Schubert.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
He wasn't the first.
Whom do you think of? Wasn't Wagner beginning in the middle of the 18 hundreds, quiet early in this regard?

By the way: Better take a lession by a real musician. There you will learn about the classical approach even when disliking it:
Benjamin Zander about melodies
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Muso wrote:
He wasn't the first.
Whom do you think of? Wasn't Wagner beginning in the middle of the 18 hundreds, quiet early in this regard?


Well, his daughter Isolde's maternal grandfather, for one.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
Muso wrote:
He wasn't the first.
Whom do you think of? Wasn't Wagner beginning in the middle of the 18 hundreds, quiet early in this regard?


Well, his daughter Isolde's maternal grandfather, for one.

:lol:
ulenrich wrote:
By the way: Better take a lession by a real musician. There you will learn about the classical approach even when disliking it:
Benjamin Zander about melodies

Who said anything about disliking classical music? You had spare straw lying around?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:57 am    Post subject: Re: The Death of Melody Reply with quote

Ignore the title, the content is relevant regarding pop music and melody (and Jazz in the sense of mentioning Steely Dan).

LADY GAGA "Shallow" LAWSUIT | Why This Will Keep Happening
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Jazz & classical explore all aspects of melody, harmony, rhythm, and counterpoint.



.. tune ? This is jazz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this country song composition the singer from time to time
seems to fight against his origins. Playing and fighting with traditions is a thing in modern pop culture.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: The Death of Melody Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Ignore the title, the content is relevant regarding pop music and melody (and Jazz in the sense of mentioning Steely Dan).

LADY GAGA "Shallow" LAWSUIT | Why This Will Keep Happening


Thank you for bringing up the copyright aspect.

Remember, modern copyright law inspires creativity(TM).
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
Muso wrote:
Jazz & classical explore all aspects of melody, harmony, rhythm, and counterpoint.



.. tune ? This is jazz


Oh yeah!
My biggest worry though, is that the best tunes has been set allready. Anything else produced will be similarities of these.
We need a new instrument. I call for the Mule and his instrument in Asimovs' Trilogy.
I'd say Zappa did a good try.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Jazz & classical explore all aspects of melody, harmony, rhythm, and counterpoint.


As a musician, I know the only difference between different musical genres is the rhythm.

Music is about harmony which give the context, melody which give the meaning, rhythm which give the genre, and expression which give the feeling.

Expression depend on the skills and feelings of the musicians, we like some and dislike others, that's part of life.

Harmony and melody are cultural events, the same for every one into a given culture, and as a musician we are free to explore them or not, to explode them or not, and that on each songs. Some songs can be more difficult than others, but their harmonic and melodic pieces are always the same into a given culture.

Rhythms are also cultural events, but at a much more small and diffuse scale. The harmonic and melodic pieces of salsa, jazz and rock are the same, but their basic rhythms are not the same. Take the rhythm of the cuban son, simplify it and double the tempo, you get a basic punk rhythm. Do the same with a reggae rhythm and you will get some ska-punk rhythm. Take the african Yoruba rhythms, let them go to Cuba, they become mixed with other influences and gave the rhythms of the cuban son, let them go back to Africa and mix them again with other influences like electrical western instruments and you get the nigerian rumba, which later was mixed again and evolved to afrobeat and other styles, even to african electro music.

I think the main difference with the digital area of music is than anyone can call himself a musician. But from my musician pov, if he or she is not able to share his music with other musicians, which mean and imply to be able to play live with them, he is just some kind of compulsive, pathetic and insignifiant troll if he call himself a musician.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1jWdeRKvvk
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: The Death of Melody Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
pjp wrote:
Ignore the title, the content is relevant regarding pop music and melody (and Jazz in the sense of mentioning Steely Dan).

LADY GAGA "Shallow" LAWSUIT | Why This Will Keep Happening


Thank you for bringing up the copyright aspect.

Remember, modern copyright law inspires creativity(TM).
Another issue is modern software tools that allow cut & paste rather than having to actually perform the material. I hadn't heard that specific criticism (explained that way) of modern tools, so I thought that was an interesting perspective as well.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quantized "funk"...

Worse than hearing what little he plays of the brothers is the "professor" describing why he thinks it is James Brown funky.

Why the Jonas Brothers “Sucker” is NOT Funky
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Quantized "funk"...

Worse than hearing what little he plays of the brothers is the "professor" describing why he thinks it is James Brown funky.

Why the Jonas Brothers “Sucker” is NOT Funky


++

While some music works well in perfect rhythm (baroque & the techno ubergenre), the groove is necessary for most other music.

Not everything hits with the *click* on this : But the groove is so nice
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good song.

The more I think about what happend to result in modern music, the more I'm convinced it is due to software, or more precisely, how it is used. It shouldn't be that precise. I think even techno might improve if it incorporated imperfect precision.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Good song.

The more I think about what happend to result in modern music, the more I'm convinced it is due to software, or more precisely, how it is used. It shouldn't be that precise. I think even techno might improve if it incorporated imperfect precision.


I agree. Which is why Shpongle live sounds so amazing.

Example
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
pjp wrote:
Quantized "funk"...

Worse than hearing what little he plays of the brothers is the "professor" describing why he thinks it is James Brown funky.

Why the Jonas Brothers “Sucker” is NOT Funky


++

While some music works well in perfect rhythm (baroque & the techno ubergenre), the groove is necessary for most other music.

Not everything hits with the *click* on this : But the groove is so nice
++ for that slight and comfortable flashback Muso. did hear that many times in the 80ties.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

e3k wrote:
++ for that slight and comfortable flashback Muso. did hear that many times in the 80ties.


70's for me. I listened to that album so many times.

Here's another great track for the same album, performed live in Paris (1979) : Logical Song
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