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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
And if you choose to look down on others because they aren't
as knowledgeable as you at this point in time, that's your choice.

I say this as someone who more than once was greeted with a non-booting system as an ~arch user - because of some corner-case of my particular setup. Making people aware of this != looking down on others...


Perhaps not, it just seemed (to me) dismissive of those who have ~arch pkgs on their system whatever their reasons.
Anyway, water under the bridge. And as I said I agree in general with what you stated about ~arch.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Developer,

This really deserved a news item. That's why this thread is already as long as it is.

Edit: I am not an ~arch user.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:40 pm    Post subject: An alternative Reply with quote

BT wrote:
If you're not using systemd, you need remove sys-power/upower and install sys-power/upower-pm-utils.


Or, if you are like me and you couldn't care less about power-management bells and whistles, just get rid of upower altogether: add "-upower" to your USE flags in make.conf. Doing that just made my life a lot simpler.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I also think ssuominen did a good job of addressing the issue when it was brought up.

I ask forgiveness for my "incompetent" comment earlier.


Thanks, it's all good. I just felt wrongly accused and got irritated, when I'm specifically trying to provide every possible scenario to users, both, systemd and non-systemd.

I'm sending a news item later today, I can post it here for the intrested people:

Quote:

Title: UPower loses hibernate / suspend to systemd
Author: Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org>
Content-Type: text/plain
Posted: 2014-06-03
Revision: 1
News-Item-Format: 1.0
Display-If-Installed: <sys-power/upower-0.99.0

UPower discontinued hibernate and suspend support in favor of systemd.
Because of this, we have created a compability package at
sys-power/upower-pm-utils which will give you the old UPower with
sys-power/pm-utils support back.
Some desktops have integrated the sys-power/pm-utils support directly
to their code, like Xfce, and as a result, they work also with the new
UPower as expected.

All non-systemd users are recommended to choose between:

# emerge --oneshot --noreplace 'sys-power/upower-pm-utils'

or

# emerge --oneshot --noreplace '>=sys-power/upower-0.99.0'

However, all systemd users are recommended to stay with sys-power/upower.


And yes, I admit that now that i'm looking back at the whole last 24 hours, I should have sent the news item beforehand, just to protect myself from certain people who grasp at anything they can and complain about it (talking about mailing list, not forums, now)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imo the Handbook should be extended to include a section that explains the "--exclude" parameter - especially with mildly life threatening issues like the one at hand: If something blocks your emerge --update, use --exclude and finish the rest of your update, sit back, cool down, then look up in the forum or gentoo.org before opening the n-th thread about it (that starts with an accusation in the title).
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Quote:
Imo the Handbook should be extended to include a section that explains the "--exclude" parameter - especially with mildly life threatening issues like the one at hand: If something blocks your emerge --update, use --exclude and finish the rest of your update, sit back, cool down, then look up in the forum or gentoo.org before opening the n-th thread about it (that starts with an accusation in the title).


Great idea, genstorm!

Even as a long-time ~arch user, I was spinning my wheels this morning on a large @world update (170 pkgs) before I found this thread. Since I had last week emerged Cinnamon on this non-systemd ~x86 system with a partial leftover gnome mask list, I went down some wrong turns in /etc/portage USE/MASK edits trying to figure out what was going on, and where I had gone wrong. :oops:

Thanks much to ssuominen and others for the assistance! :D
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a good idea, Genstorm, I've never used exclude myself, because I try and update daily,
and won't allow an update if something is pulled in that I don't want on my system.
I try and see if there are alternatives instead but I've playing with linux a long time.

But I can see it would be very useful.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moving to upower-pm-utils doesn't solve this for me. I'm using mate.

Code:

# emerge -upDN world

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild   R    ] dev-libs/glib-2.38.2-r1  USE="(mime%*)"
[ebuild  N    #] sys-apps/systemd-208-r3  USE="acl filecaps firmware-loader gudev introspection kmod pam policykit tcpd -audit -cryptsetup -doc -gcrypt -http -lzma -python -qrcode (-selinux) {-test} -vanilla -xattr" PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python2_7 -python3_2 -python3_3" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_3 -python3_2"
[ebuild  N    #] sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration-2
[uninstall     ] sys-fs/udev-212-r1
[blocks b      ] sys-apps/systemd ("sys-apps/systemd" is blocking sys-fs/udev-212-r1)
[blocks b      ] sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration ("sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration" is blocking sys-fs/udev-212-r1)
[blocks b      ] sys-fs/udev ("sys-fs/udev" is blocking sys-apps/systemd-208-r3)
[ebuild  N    #] sys-power/upower-0.9.23-r3  USE="introspection -doc -ios"
[uninstall     ] sys-power/upower-pm-utils-0.9.23
[blocks b      ] sys-power/upower ("sys-power/upower" is blocking sys-power/upower-pm-utils-0.9.23)

The following mask changes are necessary to proceed:
 (see "package.unmask" in the portage(5) man page for more details)
# required by virtual/udev-208-r2
# required by sys-power/upower-0.9.23-r3
# required by mate-extra/mate-power-manager-1.6.2-r2::mate-overlay
# required by @selected
# required by @world (argument)
# /etc/portage/package.mask:
=sys-apps/systemd-208-r3
# required by sys-apps/systemd-208-r3[-vanilla]
# required by sys-power/upower-0.9.23-r3
# required by mate-extra/mate-power-manager-1.6.2-r2::mate-overlay
# required by @selected
# required by @world (argument)
# /etc/portage/package.mask:
=sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration-2
# required by xfce-base/xfce4-session-4.10.1-r1[udev]
# required by xfce-base/xfce4-meta-4.10
# required by @selected
# required by @world (argument)
# /etc/portage/package.mask:
=sys-power/upower-0.9.23-r3

NOTE: The --autounmask-keep-masks option will prevent emerge
      from creating package.unmask or ** keyword changes.
#


And

Code:

# equery d upower
 * These packages depend on upower:
mate-base/mate-applets-1.6.1 (>=sys-power/upower-0.9.4)
mate-base/mate-session-manager-1.6.1-r1 (>=sys-power/upower-0.9.0)
mate-extra/mate-power-manager-1.6.2-r2 (>=sys-power/upower-0.9.1)
net-misc/networkmanager-0.9.8.8 (sys-power/upower)
xfce-base/xfce4-session-4.10.1-r1 (udev ? <sys-power/upower-0.99)
xfce-extra/xfce4-power-manager-1.2.0-r2 (<sys-power/upower-0.99)
xfce-extra/xfce4-weather-plugin-0.8.3 (udev ? <sys-power/upower-0.99)
# equery d upower-pm-utils
 * These packages depend on upower-pm-utils:
net-misc/networkmanager-0.9.8.8 (sys-power/upower-pm-utils)
xfce-base/xfce4-session-4.10.1-r1 (udev ? sys-power/upower-pm-utils)
xfce-extra/xfce4-power-manager-1.2.0-r2 (sys-power/upower-pm-utils)
xfce-extra/xfce4-weather-plugin-0.8.3 (udev ? sys-power/upower-pm-utils)
# emerge -pv mate-applets mate-session-manager mate-power-manager

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N    #] sys-apps/systemd-208-r3:0/1  USE="acl filecaps firmware-loader gudev introspection kmod pam policykit tcpd -audit -cryptsetup -doc -gcrypt -http -lzma -python -qrcode (-selinux) {-test} -vanilla -xattr" PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python2_7 -python3_2 -python3_3" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_3 -python3_2" 2,335 kB
[ebuild  N    #] sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration-2  51 kB
[uninstall     ] sys-fs/udev-212-r1  USE="acl firmware-loader gudev introspection kmod -doc (-selinux) -static-libs"
[blocks b      ] sys-apps/systemd ("sys-apps/systemd" is blocking sys-fs/udev-212-r1)
[blocks b      ] sys-fs/udev ("sys-fs/udev" is blocking sys-apps/systemd-208-r3)
[blocks b      ] sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration ("sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration" is blocking sys-fs/udev-212-r1)
[ebuild  N    #] sys-power/upower-0.9.23-r3  USE="introspection -doc -ios" 0 kB
[uninstall     ] sys-power/upower-pm-utils-0.9.23  USE="introspection -doc -ios"
[blocks b      ] sys-power/upower ("sys-power/upower" is blocking sys-power/upower-pm-utils-0.9.23)
[ebuild   R   ~] mate-base/mate-session-manager-1.6.1-r1::mate-overlay  USE="-debug -ipv6 -systemd" 0 kB
[ebuild   R   ~] mate-base/mate-applets-1.6.1::mate-overlay  USE="networkmanager policykit -ipv6" 0 kB
[ebuild   R   ~] mate-extra/mate-power-manager-1.6.2-r2::mate-overlay  USE="applet gnome-keyring policykit -man {-test}" 0 kB

Total: 6 packages (3 new, 3 reinstalls, 2 uninstalls), Size of downloads: 2,385 kB
Conflict: 4 blocks

The following mask changes are necessary to proceed:
 (see "package.unmask" in the portage(5) man page for more details)
# required by mate-base/mate-applets-1.6.1::mate-overlay
# required by mate-applets (argument)
# /etc/portage/package.mask:
=sys-power/upower-0.9.23-r3
# required by sys-apps/systemd-208-r3[-vanilla]
# required by sys-power/upower-0.9.23-r3
# required by mate-base/mate-session-manager-1.6.1-r1::mate-overlay
# required by mate-session-manager (argument)
# /etc/portage/package.mask:
=sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration-2
# required by virtual/libgudev-208
# required by sys-power/upower-0.9.23-r3
# required by mate-base/mate-session-manager-1.6.1-r1::mate-overlay
# required by mate-session-manager (argument)
# /etc/portage/package.mask:
=sys-apps/systemd-208-r3

NOTE: The --autounmask-keep-masks option will prevent emerge
      from creating package.unmask or ** keyword changes.
#
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Princess Nell wrote:
Moving to upower-pm-utils doesn't solve this for me. I'm using mate.

Code:

mate-base/mate-applets-1.6.1 (>=sys-power/upower-0.9.4)

At least this one package is outdated on your system, because it isn't in my copy of portage anymore (and >=1.6.2 do have the optional upower-pm-utils dep). It seems that for some reason you still have old versions from the overlay installed (which most likely do not exist there anymore either) - perhaps you need to put 1.6.2-r1 into package.keywords?
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Princess Nell
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I updated the overlay and package.accept_keywords, but no change. For some reason, the 1.8 packages are now being pulled, not 1.6.

I found the ebuilds causing the problem and hacked upower-pm-utils support into them: mate-applets-1.8.0, mate-power-manager-1.8.0-r1 and mate-session-manager-1.8.1. What I couldn't figure out was how to unmask the portage versions of those three and use them instead of the overlay.
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Princess Nell wrote:
I updated the overlay and package.accept_keywords, but no change. For some reason, the 1.8 packages are now being pulled, not 1.6.

I found the ebuilds causing the problem and hacked upower-pm-utils support into them: mate-applets-1.8.0, mate-power-manager-1.8.0-r1 and mate-session-manager-1.8.1. What I couldn't figure out was how to unmask the portage versions of those three and use them instead of the overlay.


You can mask them like,

/etc/portage/package.mask

Code:

mate-base/mate-session-manager::mate-overlay


where ::mate-overlay will imply it's the 'mate-overlay' version of the package that is masked, then a version from ::gentoo is used instead
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just ran into this issue. Sigh. I thought I could stay away from systemd with xfce but it almost seems like resistance is futile...

Thanks for creating upower-pm-utils, hmm, may have to think about gnome3'ing more machines :(
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eccerr0r wrote:
I just ran into this issue. Sigh. I thought I could stay away from systemd with xfce but it almost seems like resistance is futile...

Thanks for creating upower-pm-utils, hmm, may have to think about gnome3'ing more machines :(


Xfce is the only desktop in Portage that specifically does support >=sys-power/upower-0.99.0 and Hibernate & Suspend also for non-systemd users.

I'm currently using Xfce from ~arch, UPower 0.99.0, sys-power/pm-utils, OpenRC, sys-fs/udev combination without any issues.

So you may have understood some Portage output wrong, if you think you are forced to sys-power/upower-pm-utils.

Xfce got special attention because it's the desktop I use, and maintain. It always will. ;-)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: An alternative Reply with quote

dmoulding wrote:
BT wrote:
If you're not using systemd, you need remove sys-power/upower and install sys-power/upower-pm-utils.


Or, if you are like me and you couldn't care less about power-management bells and whistles, just get rid of upower altogether: add "-upower" to your USE flags in make.conf. Doing that just made my life a lot simpler.
Sorry that I pick this out, but this is troubling me alot right now.

As a "mixed" user (593 cherry-picked entries in package.accept_keywords) who is pedantic about USE flags (352 entries in package.use) I bet my system will be running fine without systemd for a good while to come.

However, I am suspending/waking my laptop five times a day. As far as I know this works using upower from KDE4 side. (Fn+F1)

How can I
- Get rid of upower (once it is a *must* to circumvent systemd) and
- Still have the ability to easily suspend/wake my laptop (without issuing "pm-suspend" as root ?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: An alternative Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
dmoulding wrote:
BT wrote:
If you're not using systemd, you need remove sys-power/upower and install sys-power/upower-pm-utils.


Or, if you are like me and you couldn't care less about power-management bells and whistles, just get rid of upower altogether: add "-upower" to your USE flags in make.conf. Doing that just made my life a lot simpler.
Sorry that I pick this out, but this is troubling me alot right now.

As a "mixed" user (593 cherry-picked entries in package.accept_keywords) who is pedantic about USE flags (352 entries in package.use) I bet my system will be running fine without systemd for a good while to come.

However, I am suspending/waking my laptop five times a day. As far as I know this works using upower from KDE4 side. (Fn+F1)

How can I
- Get rid of upower (once it is a *must* to circumvent systemd) and
- Still have the ability to easily suspend/wake my laptop (without issuing "pm-suspend" as root ?


For KDE, to ensure Hibernate/Suspend keeps working, you should emerge upower-pm-utils, because KDE's UPower 0.99.0 support doesn't include Hibernate/Suspend without a UPower that does it on a non-systemd system

Code:

# emerge --noreplace upower-pm-utils
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: An alternative Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:

How can I
- Get rid of upower (once it is a *must* to circumvent systemd) and
- Still have the ability to easily suspend/wake my laptop (without issuing "pm-suspend" as root ?


I can only tell you what i do. I got rid of systemd and everything from L.P. using package.mask. Like described a lot here in the forum. Switched away from mainstream desktop's, because (i think) they will sooner or later switch to systemd. To enable me, to shutdown, suspend and so on, i added a group "powermgr", added me to this group. In /etc/sudoers i allow this group (without password) to do power management. pm-suspend and so on. For simple usage, i added aliases (like shutdown -> sudo shutdown -h now) and put these commands on hotkeys in my i3wm config. E.g. "Super+Shift+F12 -> shutdown".

My keypoint is "/etc/sudoers" + alias + hotkey. You can use this for nearly all stuff you want to do.

I would be possible to patch the power menu from KDE/whatever to call this scripts and circumvent the usage of systemd/dbus/whatever. In the end, this shutdown menu offers just buttons which trigger functions. These functions could be patched.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Am I being forced to use systemd now? Reply with quote

Budoka wrote:
Subject: Am I being forced to use systemd now?

Budoka ... that depends on how one interprets the word "forced", you can take it as a "gentle push" or "strict policy". No one is strictly "forcing" you, but opting out may not be an option if you depend on certain components of your system working.

Lennart Poetering wrote:
With systemd we have a very strict policy: we want to gently push the distros to standardize on the same components for the base system.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Am I being forced to use systemd now? Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Lennart Poetering wrote:
With systemd we have a very strict policy: we want to gently push the distros to standardize on the same components for the base system.

best ... khay


Gently push? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having run Linux since RedHat 4.0, I've run my share of MTAs. I've personally configured and used sendmail, Exim, and Postfix, currently using the latter. Along the way I've also looked at and chosen not to use Courier and whatever DJB calls his MTA. I've also run my own IMAP server, and at various times have run Cyrus IMAP, UWash IMAP, and Dovecot. At the moment I have stabilized on Postfix and Dovecot.

I think it's high time we stabilized email on Postfix and Dovecot. We should really encourage all other packages to work best with those to mail programs. At the same time, both feature backwards-compatibility features to interoperate with older servers. For instance, Postfix (and most other MTAs, for that matter) have sendmail-compatible hooks. Those should eventually be ripped out in favor of a legacy-free Postfix environment, etc. There is just too much MTA and IMAP fragmentation, and it's obviously hurting Linux adoption.

(I don't really believe this, but does anyone see the parallel? I also suspect you'd have to pry pretty much any DJB software out of the user/admin's cold, dead hands. I don't use it personally, but I understand the opinion.)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like the more generic solution is using upower-pm-utils as it's the solution for everything else but Gnome and (now) xfce. I'm not sure why it didn't automatically fix itself if just updating upower would work, perhaps my portage tree was out of date or my preference in not using ~arch (x86 in this case).

In any case I'm not sure what direction KDE, MATE, etc. are going with this change in upower?

And yes, I've been a long time sendmail user despite its nonsensical .cf file (been m4'ing it since forever.) And I even got my machine hacked with a bad version of sendmail (first Linux I ever used, SLS 1.0.3a) Not sure what I'd go to next if sendmail was dropped. Currently I'm using sendmail+ssl+sasl+dovecot as my remote relay/mail service, and that was a PITA to setup...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eccerr0r wrote:
In any case I'm not sure what direction KDE, MATE, etc. are going with this change in upower?

USE="-avahi -consolekit -udisks -pulseaudio -policykit -upower -zeroconf"
(and masking the corresponding *kit) saves from a lot of troubles.
Things which unconditionally depend on this, are not worth to be installed... (to be precise: They are not worth the security hole which they open on your system.) Until very recently most of kde could be installed without a problem (I no longer use KDE for different reasons, but I would be surprised if much should have changed here).
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eccerr0r wrote:
In any case I'm not sure what direction KDE, MATE, etc. are going with this change in upower?


I would suspect that a fork of the last working upower (w/o systemd) is imminent.
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
eccerr0r wrote:
In any case I'm not sure what direction KDE, MATE, etc. are going with this change in upower?


I would suspect that a fork of the last working upower (w/o systemd) is imminent.


I highly doubt that, all I've seen is moaning and yelling, and no code coming from anyone. And what good would that do anyway, if applications are migrating to UPower 0.99 API that doesn't include Hibernate and Suspend anymore?
And even if applications would keep the old 0.9 API that still had Hibernate and Suspend, what good does that do if pm-utils has been abandoned since 2010? See, http://cgit.freedesktop.org/pm-utils/

Instead, somekind of OpenRC -related plug-in, or standalone application that provides Hibernate and Suspend and provides a dbus service that imitates the systemd's version of it, would be required, or otherwise those fancy [Hibernate]
and [Suspend] buttons in different desktops session and power managers will stay greyed out.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
eccerr0r wrote:
In any case I'm not sure what direction KDE, MATE, etc. are going with this change in upower?


I would suspect that a fork of the last working upower (w/o systemd) is imminent.


I highly doubt that, all I've seen is moaning and yelling, and no code coming from anyone.


You may be right, but whether it's a fork of the last non-sysd upower or something to replace it,
there are two choices, follow RH's path, or embrace something that gives back choice to users.

Note: I don't keep up with upower/udisks as I don't use either. So I may be very uninformed on this subject. 8)
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eccerr0r
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It almost seems systemd "is" the right solution in terms of stable software (the pm-utils routines)?
Should there be a library for openrc or sysvinit or other subsystem that deals with power routines?
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